AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[That Guy]

2 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

I didnt realize Scriptor was a wizard

It can’t be if you want to bind the krondspine, since the krondspine is seen as an enhancement.

[That Guy]

7 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

TBH I much prefer frightfull touch; Ide rather bypass the wound and save rolls for 2 instead of 3 damage.

Beyond that and the point of save he seems pretty much the same

Oh yeah for sure. It’s the sustainability combined with the low cost that we lost. Frightful touch is much better for the offensive. The problem is for 10 wounds being on a 4+ Ethereal with 6+ ward doesn’t cut it when it comes to survivability. Don’t forget it was sitting on a 3+ save unrendable. With 5+ ward. With mystic shield you were able to make it a 2+ save 5+ ward monster that heals in every combat phase if it killed something. It was obnoxious, but very strong. If they didn’t ethereal it and just brought it to a 4+ Save, we could’ve made it a 3+ with mystic shield, or just let it stay at a 3+ but make it ethereal. Now he just dies in 1 turn. It’s a shame… because he’s so cool and a necessary unit for us in a viable context. We need a monster that we can count on, without crippling ourselves. That monster has been Mannfred and Nagash for a while now, but let’s be honest. We want our mourngul or another pure nighthaunt monster to be good. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by That Guy

[Kadeton]

The Incarnate definitely seems like a much more effective monster than the Mourngul (which is a shame, but so it goes). It's an immovable object you can use as the anchor for our glass cannon units. It blocks charge lanes, absorbs fire that would otherwise kill whole units, and presents a credible threat that can't be ignored. It will solo an entire army of Stormdrake Guard by itself, should you happen to run into that kind of list.

[EnixLHQ]

The rower might be a monster. /shrug If he is, I hope it's not an extremely utility one.

It's likely Nagash will remain available to us as a warlord in the new tome, and between him and Mannfred we might not get a pure NH monster. I hope we do, though.

[Landohammer]

I have seen some excitement for the Incarnate, but keep it mind we currently have access to the best Mega in the game and it hasn't done much to lift our army out of effectively last place. And honestly I currently recommend the Gatebreaker over the incarnate as its a lot harder to deal with, isn't reliant on a easily sniped hero, and won't turn on you.

I am personally a sucker for GW's boxes (I recently split Eldritch Omens and Arena of Shades) but even I am passing on this one. 

 

[That Guy]

4 hours ago, Kadeton said:

The Incarnate definitely seems like a much more effective monster than the Mourngul (which is a shame, but so it goes). It's an immovable object you can use as the anchor for our glass cannon units. It blocks charge lanes, absorbs fire that would otherwise kill whole units, and presents a credible threat that can't be ignored. It will solo an entire army of Stormdrake Guard by itself, should you happen to run into that kind of list.

And not give any extra victory points for being destroyed hahhahahaha! Gottem. 

[That Guy]

33 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I have seen some excitement for the Incarnate, but keep it mind we currently have access to the best Mega in the game and it hasn't done much to lift our army out of effectively last place. And honestly I currently recommend the Gatebreaker over the incarnate as its a lot harder to deal with, isn't reliant on a easily sniped hero, and won't turn on you.

I am personally a sucker for GW's boxes (I recently split Eldritch Omens and Arena of Shades) but even I am passing on this one. 

 

It’s cool and strong. But also costs 525p, takes CP and doesn’t count as 20. Mightier, but not so much rightier.

[Landohammer]

5 minutes ago, That Guy said:

It’s cool and strong. But also costs 525p, takes CP and doesn’t count as 20. Mightier, but not so much rightier.

Fair, but in his defense he usually kills anything on his objective. And its not like the 125pts you save would be spent on anything meaningful in NH anyway . I also can't imagine the bound hero will be contributing much besides hiding behind a rock.

I don't want to kill any ones hype (god knows we need something exciting right now) but I can def see some people getting buyer's remorse when their bound hero gets ganked early on and you end up fighting 400pts of your own army

 

 

[Boggler]

If it comes down to Gatebreaker vs Incarnate+Hero, I'm going with the Gargant everytime.

Let's hope its a more complicated decision than this.

[dmorley21]

27 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Fair, but in his defense he usually kills anything on his objective. And its not like the 125pts you save would be spent on anything meaningful in NH anyway . I also can't imagine the bound hero will be contributing much besides hiding behind a rock.

I don't want to kill any ones hype (god knows we need something exciting right now) but I can def see some people getting buyer's remorse when their bound hero gets ganked early on and you end up fighting 400pts of your own army

 

 

I’ve seen lists with the Gatebreaker do well. 
 

However, the Incarnate is also a buff/debuff piece. Re-rolling charges? Giving multiple units all out attack when we can’t use all out defense? Those are really good.

And even if your bound hero dies, if you end up having the Incarnate fight your own models, you made a mistake 9 times out of 10. You get to move it, run it, and then make it charge. The only way would be if it was pinned in with your units and your general was dead and unable to use spectral summons. 

[Kadeton]

Why would you care if the bonded hero dies? After that, the Incarnate gets better. There's no reason to ever put yourself in a position where you're at risk of it attacking your own models.

[Neck-Romantic]

As with so many things Nighthaunt; it wouldnt take much for the Mournghul to be worthwhile again.

An Olynder aoe shriek, a 6" pile-in, either a few more wounds or going back to a 3+ ethereal save, its just so close to being good.

I honestly do feel like they will adjust ethereal with the game-wide all out defense and mystic shield universals being denied us

Edited April 13, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[That Guy]

9 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Why would you care if the bonded hero dies? After that, the Incarnate gets better. There's no reason to ever put yourself in a position where you're at risk of it attacking your own models.

If you care so much for it going wild just take the Incarnate Masters of Ghur battalion. Only when all units die from the bat. does he go wild. And it’s a one drop, so at best you’ll probably be a 2 drop army, which is not bad for basically making sure your incarnate doesn’t go wild. What’s nice is that the bonded hero can be over 10W too so take an Eidolon of the sea for Idoneth for example, now the eidolon benefits from better casts, unbinds, dispels and the incarnate doesn’t go wild before it dies and all units from the battalion. For Nighthaunt though, i guess it puts less pressure on your smaller hero being assassinated, now you actually don’t have to hide anywhere.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by That Guy

[Kadeton]

It's neat that battalion exists for people who are worried about it. Again, though - why would you want to stop the Incarnate from going wild? The penalty is trivially mitigated, and the bonuses more than make up for it.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Kadeton said:

It's neat that battalion exists for people who are worried about it. Again, though - why would you want to stop the Incarnate from going wild? The penalty is trivially mitigated, and the bonuses more than make up for it.

I suppose if your overall plan is to have your Incarnate in the thick of it with your other units, you would want it to not go wild.

[Kadeton]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I suppose if your overall plan is to have your Incarnate in the thick of it with your other units, you would want it to not go wild.

"In the thick of it" there should be plenty of enemy targets, so being forced to attack your own models shouldn't be a concern. The enemy will target your other units anyway,  since they can't kill the Incarnate quickly. The only downside is that you can't use the All-Out Attack aura - which you can't do anyway if you're hiding the bonded hero away from the action.

But I don't think that's the best way to use the Incarnate anyway. It's the ideal solo monster hunter - if it gets into combat with a monster it's a permanent tarpit until one of them dies, and the Incarnate is much more likely to come out on top. If it's wild, it does more damage and you can even try feeding it with your own low-CV endless spells to make it literally unkillable. Archaon is about the only monster that has a chance of getting out of that bind.

[That Guy]

One reason could be to achieve the new Grand Strategy “Lord of Incarnates”. This GS is achieved if your Incarnate is on the field and not reverted to his wild form at the end of the game. The other reason could indeed be to have just a little bit more control over it. In case of a nurgle tarpit for example you do have to be careful for placement. If armies like nighthaunt or first prince mess with your movement, your closest target might just be one of your own units.

Edited April 13, 2022 by That Guy

[Landohammer]

4 hours ago, That Guy said:

If you care so much for it going wild just take the Incarnate Masters of Ghur battalion. Only when all units die from the bat. does he go wild. And it’s a one drop, so at best you’ll probably be a 2 drop army, which is not bad for basically making sure your incarnate doesn’t go wild. What’s nice is that the bonded hero can be over 10W too so take an Eidolon of the sea for Idoneth for example, now the eidolon benefits from better casts, unbinds, dispels and the incarnate doesn’t go wild before it dies and all units from the battalion. For Nighthaunt though, i guess it puts less pressure on your smaller hero being assassinated, now you actually don’t have to hide anywhere.

 

Is it confirmed that the new Thondian book is officially the new matched play setting? There seems to be some confusion in my group as to whether this is an optional supplement or an actual GHB level matched play update.  

If so that battalion might give me some piece of mind lol. And being one-drop is just icing on the cake.

6 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

As with so many things Nighthaunt; it wouldnt take much for the Mournghul to be worthwhile again.

An Olynder aoe shriek, a 6" pile-in, either a few more wounds or going back to a 3+ ethereal save, its just so close to being good.

I honestly do feel like they will adjust ethereal with the game-wide all out defense and mystic shield universals being denied us

I know a lot of us are annoyed at just how terrible our only monster continues to be, but I wouldn't count on the Mourngal getting an update in the codex. GW doesn't typically update FW warscrolls in their codexes. We will need to wait on another Monstrous Arcanum update, and unfortunately those are painfully rare. 

[That Guy]

3 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Is it confirmed that the new Thondian book is officially the new matched play setting? There seems to be some confusion in my group as to whether this is an optional supplement or an actual GHB level matched play update.  

If so that battalion might give me some piece of mind lol. And being one-drop is just icing on the cake.

This is the most official answer I can give you, they basically don't replace, but are a separate pack altogether. So an addition. 

3 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I know a lot of us are annoyed at just how terrible our only monster continues to be, but I wouldn't count on the Mourngal getting an update in the codex. GW doesn't typically update FW warscrolls in their codexes. We will need to wait on another Monstrous Arcanum update, and unfortunately those are painfully rare. 

 I fully expect it. Just like the Bonegrinder Mega-Gargant got updated for Sons of Behemat. 

[EnixLHQ]

Thondia is a Battlepack. Battlepacks are a 40K thing that was brought over to AoS with 3.0

Battlepacks are self-contained. With the release of AoS 3.0 the Battlepacks were Contest of Generals and Pitched Battles 2021. And soon we will have Seasons of War: Thondia. Going forward, each season will likely start with "Seasons of War" and each balance release between the seasons will likely be called "Pitched Battles 20XX," though they have said they want to get away from that release model so we'll have to see if that holds. Maybe we'll have two "seasons" a year.

The way it works is that a game or tournament will be able to select a Battlepack to work from.

You will have three choices:

• Contest of Generals (sample pack)
• Pitched Battles 2021 (season of 2021)
• Seasons of War: Thondia (season of 2022, released 4/16)

The goal is that if you go to a game that is using Thondia you can leave your Pitched Battles book at home. It'll be old and outdated, with everything that's needed to be carried over and reprinted in Thondia. However, some games or tournaments may want to use PB2021 instead of Thondia, in which case they are effectively setting a date in time that is a cutoff for any changes/updates/errata.

[Zappgrot]

On 4/9/2022 at 8:04 AM, Neck-Romantic said:

Not neccesarily an attractive strategy though. 

I know I dont collect, assemble, paint all my wargaming figures to be the best at running away and fulfilling sidequests 😅

I guess that is matter of taste.  Personally I do find it verry amuzing to play a board control army. I really sets off the whole evil overlord in me. The whole no matter how much you struggle my troops will conquer the board  fibe has something for me.  

[Kadeton]

I don't think you can really succeed at board control in the current state of the game without the ability to summon new units as well as replenish existing ones. Otherwise the threats are simply too mobile and hit too hard, especially for an army that can't stack saves at all.

Beasts of Chaos (post-update) have shown that board control can work and be fun - they do it by being able to reliably summon a new unit every turn, and rally on a 4+.

I don't particularly want Nighthaunt to go down that playstyle route, but if they did, that's roughly the level of summon + sustain they'd need to make it actually viable.

[That Guy]

So uh… I got my hands on 10 more Craventhrone Guard, now having a total of 20. I am also building the Krondspine Incarnate as we speak and my friends and I will do a few games tonight. We play a bit more casual this time around, with some more “narratively” correct forces. My friends are bringing a Tzeentch daemon list, with a a Lord of Change and Be’lakor. He might also bring Kairos instead. We kept it a bit of a surprise. My other friend will bring a Nurgle list. He has been building 6! Rotbringer Sorcerers, so I think he will come with a list of Filthbringers with 2 rot covens in it. He also has a bunch of blightkings and fat boys on flies and some beasts of Nurgle I believe. Than my 3rd friend is bringing Ossiarch Bonereapers, with Katakros. I know he loves his Praetorians and he hasn’t been shy to experiment with lists. Lately he has been bringing Mir Kainan a lot and 2 catapults. He also owns Arkhan, so we’ll see what he does. Since we are going to try the new season of war thondia battlepack. I’m going to bring the Incarnate, with a themed list around Kurdoss Valentian. I ended up with a list that I think will do decent against these match ups and actually contain a bunch of the updated units too! The list has a nice variety of melee, ranged and magic focus with a VERY strong anti magic front, and a bunch of lockdown mechanics and movement impairment. It will be a 2 drop army and requires a deep skill floor to succeed with. I am hesitant to make Kurdoss the general and just forego the better cast, unbind and dispel on the guardian of souls. Being able to bodyguard Kurdoss might just be a better play. Although with current setup, the incarnate will very unlikely ever become wild and therefore i'll achieve my grand strategy most likely. I will write out the plan for the army in another post. This is the list: 

Army Faction: Nighthaunt
    - Army Subfaction: Emerald Host
    - Grand Strategy: Lord of Incarnates
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER

Kurdoss Valentian (160)*

Scriptor Mortis (150)*

The Briar Queen (175)*
    - Spells: Soul Cage

Guardian of Souls (135)**
    - General
    - Command Traits: Lord of the Host
    - Chill Blade
    - Spells: Shademist
    - Bonding: Krondspine Incarnate of Ghur

BATTLELINE

Hexwraiths (150)**

Hexwraiths (150)**

Hexwraiths (150)**

BEHEMOTH

Krondspine Incarnate of Ghur (400)**

OTHER

Thorns of the Briar Queen (175)*

1 x Craventhrone Guard (190)*

1 x Craventhrone Guard (190)*

Myrmourn Banshees (75)*

Myrmourn Banshees (75)*

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Battle Regiment

**Incarnate Masters of Ghur

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by That Guy

[Rors]

My concern is that if Nighthaunt are adding a krondspine because it's simply a power pick, way too many other armies will as well. Then we have a meta where most battles have a krondspine on both sides of the board, which will get stale very quickly.

I guess it's a meta where the new crossboos can theoretically pop the bound hero early if you drop a ton of them and roll hot.

[That Guy]

18 minutes ago, Rors said:

My concern is that if Nighthaunt are adding a krondspine because it's simply a power pick, way too many other armies will as well. Then we have a meta where most battles have a krondspine on both sides of the board, which will get stale very quickly.

I guess it's a meta where the new crossboos can theoretically pop the bound hero early if you drop a ton of them and roll hot.

Oh yeah, you'll see a bunch of Krondspines. Because it's a very viable monster pick. It has reliable stats, it's wild form is mostly a boon if not avoided for Grand Strategy. It flies it is just as fast as our Hexwraiths and faster when wild. It also spreads all out attack in an aura around him once you cast it on him. He's amazing. I had a very positive experience with him today. I will write out the plan for this list i wrote later on, including telling how it went. But I must say. So far i'm very pleased with how things go with it. As for the Craventhrone Guard. If you use them well, they are just such an annoyance to your opponent. I do hope they get a bit better backing once the tome drops, but we'll see. In combo with Kurdoss they do great already. He just beatsticks everything, while they sneaky mass fire hidden away targets. Or they hide themselves. They feel great like an ambush unit, both on the offensive and defensive. They become significantly better once you play with some good covering terrain on the field. Their bolts don't care. But their output isn't great at the moment either.