AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[That Guy]

2 minutes ago, Nagashfan said:

I doubled up to try and take advantage of nagash’s new + to ward save and make them a very hard unit to remove… either way works for different reasons I think 

Ah! Good reason. That will make them very pesky to remove indeed.

[dmorley21]

10 hours ago, Nagashfan said:

Army Faction: Nighthaunt
    - Army Subfaction: Emerald Host
    - Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
    - Triumps: Prized Sorcery

LEADER

Nagash (955)

Lady Olynder (215)
    - General

Krulghast Cruciator (120)

BATTLELINE

Hexwraiths (150)

Hexwraiths (150)

1 x Spirit Hosts (250)

OTHER

Dreadscythe Harridans (160)

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App
 

thoughts on my list?

I like it a lot. One fun trick is sending the Krulghast with the Harridans in this build. They get a 4+e/5+ and then with Nagash's command you can give the Spirit Hosts the same. 

Nagash is held back a bit in the early game without Spellportal. 

4 hours ago, That Guy said:

Hmmmmm. You know at first i liked it. Sure you can use Mannfred as a hammer unit, but so much of his kit in terms of abilities affect SBG units that i feel his points are wasted. He can’t be general either, because that only works in SBG and he can only access universal lore. 

I think it’s solid in terms of being able to survive. Any reason why you went for a reinforced Spirit Host unit? By splitting them up you now: 

1. Don’t have to deal with worsened unit coherency.

2. You actually benefit twice from Nagash’s Invocation and Olynders CA, because now you have 2 units instead of 1. 

3. More spread of units since these lists are very restricted. Being able to spread some forces can be useful.

Army Faction: Nighthaunt
    - Army Subfaction: Emerald Host
    - Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
    - Triumps: Inspired

LEADER

Nagash (955)*

Lady Olynder (215)*
    - General
    - Spells: Shademist

Krulghast Cruciator (120)*
    - Artefacts: Midnight Tome
    - Spells: Reaping Scythe

BATTLELINE

Hexwraiths (150)*

Hexwraiths (150)*

Chainrasp Horde (95)*

Grimghast Reapers (155)*

OTHER

Dreadscythe Harridans (160)*

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

Also… when do they decide to give Olynder the Warmaster ability… she’s a Mortarch of all things. That would allow us to general our third hero, get to bodyguard that and gain a warlord trait.

So about Mannfred - I brought him to a 2-day event back in October as my ally and he was my MVP every single game. He can give himself an Arcane Bolt, charge in, unleash it and stomp, and then just flee. He's great at snatching objectives and getting a battle tactic with a monster. His warscroll spell is tough to get off, but pretty good. He also synergizes with Nighthaunt because he provides the monster keyword and his playstyle of movement shenanigans matches the rest of the army. He also doesn't need any support. Just watch out for something like Longstrikes. 

As for your list, I like it but don't really think a unit of 10 Grimghasts brings anything to the table. They need to be reinforced to be worth taking. Another unit of Hexwraiths would probably work better. 

4 hours ago, Nagashfan said:

I doubled up to try and take advantage of nagash’s new + to ward save and make them a very hard unit to remove… either way works for different reasons I think 

Yeah, this is true. 

You can run MSU with Nagash returning models to each unit as long as the unit doesn't get wiped. Or you can focus on one anvil that is a 4+e/4+. I'm not sure if one is better than the other. 

[darkdaysdawn]

7 hours ago, That Guy said:

Any reason why you went for a reinforced Spirit Host unit? By splitting them up you now: 

1. Don’t have to deal with worsened unit coherency.

2. You actually benefit twice from Nagash’s Invocation and Olynders CA, because now you have 2 units instead of 1. 

 

Re. reinforced Spirit Hosts -- I started with 6 packs, then switched to 3's for the same reasons you provided.  However, with so many heavy shooting lists, crazy charge damage, etc. from Kruleboyz, SC, Lumineth, etc, I find 3 Spirit Hosts often don't last long enough to be healed/resurected.

As far as coherency goes, the beauty of a 6 pack is that you actually want to lose one.  As soon as you lose 1 model, you can fight with all 5.  And if you lose another model, you're still better than a 3 pack, and no worse than you were at the start of the game, and you still have 12 wounds left for your opponent to chew through before you get to heal/resurrect.

I do find 3 is a nice deepstrike/back-line-annoyance unit though.

Interested in other people's thoughts.  Cheers.

[That Guy]

3 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

As for your list, I like it but don't really think a unit of 10 Grimghasts brings anything to the table. They need to be reinforced to be worth taking. Another unit of Hexwraiths would probably work better. 

In that case I probably would rather deploy the list you've used. The extra Chainrasps feel a bit out of place on their own. They can sit on an objective, but their purpose would be minimal. In that case i rather drop the chainrasps and get the portals + head, for the Nagash utility, which would be your list. I do have to say, your list is probably close to optimal. Hexwraiths under Emerald host do pack quite a punch especially on the charge and having more bodyguard potential for our most important units is definitely nice. I'm trying to expand with variety, so that we can test the impact Nagash's new warscroll has. As you mentioned earlier. You can go the MSU route and try to maximize on the invocation, or you can have a big anvil. In your list I guess you do a bit of both. Maximizing on bodyguard potential with MSU hexwraiths, while focussing the harridans to be an anvil I guess. Nagashfan is trying to go the Anvil approach with the Spirit hosts. Earlier ArcaneLore76 posted a list with Spirit Hosts trying the MSU approach, with a maximize on healing using the emerald lifeswarm(fitting spellname) as well. What i'm trying to do is the MSU approach and maximimize on body count, while also benefitting from bodyguard rules. I added the Grimghasts because their output lies somewhere inbetween Chainrasps and Hexwraiths. The Chainrasps can put up a screen, while grimghasts can potentially hit over them with 2" range weapons. Together with the Cruciator and the revive potential of the army. I would expect that group to be great around objectives. Although i've also been thinking of dropping the Grimghasts, go with another unit of Chainrasps or reinforcing the existing chainrasp group and add an Emerald Lifeswarm as well. (1 being the MSU route, the other being the Anvil route of course) Just to have those 20 model count around objectives. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by That Guy

[Rors]

5 hours ago, darkdaysdawn said:

Re. reinforced Spirit Hosts -- I started with 6 packs, then switched to 3's for the same reasons you provided.  However, with so many heavy shooting lists, crazy charge damage, etc. from Kruleboyz, SC, Lumineth, etc, I find 3 Spirit Hosts often don't last long enough to be healed/resurected.

As far as coherency goes, the beauty of a 6 pack is that you actually want to lose one.  As soon as you lose 1 model, you can fight with all 5.  And if you lose another model, you're still better than a 3 pack, and no worse than you were at the start of the game, and you still have 12 wounds left for your opponent to chew through before you get to heal/resurrect.

I do find 3 is a nice deepstrike/back-line-annoyance unit though.

Interested in other people's thoughts.  Cheers.

How does the rules interactions work with bringing back models for this?

You drop down from 6 and now you can attack with 5 but you also change your coherency to do so. When you out models back and go up to 6, you can't move any of them. Doesn't that mean after bringing them back to 6 you'd be forced to remove one again because they're not meeting the coherency rules for a unit of 6?

[That Guy]

48 minutes ago, Rors said:

How does the rules interactions work with bringing back models for this?

You drop down from 6 and now you can attack with 5 but you also change your coherency to do so. When you out models back and go up to 6, you can't move any of them. Doesn't that mean after bringing them back to 6 you'd be forced to remove one again because they're not meeting the coherency rules for a unit of 6?

Removing models by not being coherent happens at the end of a turn. You need to be sure to be coherent at the end of a turn. The moment your first guy dies. You drop down to the more lenient coherency rules of having a unit beween 2-5 models. Meaning your unit is coherent when the models are 1" horizontally distant from 1 model in the unit and 6" vertically(height). Being at 6 and above means that your models must now be at 1" horizontally distance from 2 models and 6" vertically. Bringing back models happens at the start of a turn in the hero phase. Which means you might heal back up to 6 models. As long as you end your move for that turn within the 6 model coherency, you will be fine. If not every single model that is not coherent will be removed from play. Although it's likely going to be just 1 if you mess up. The moment 1 drops, you go back to 2-5 model coherency, which you'll likely get.

[darkdaysdawn]

On 12/24/2021 at 4:24 PM, Rors said:

How does the rules interactions work with bringing back models for this?

You drop down from 6 and now you can attack with 5 but you also change your coherency to do so. When you out models back and go up to 6, you can't move any of them. Doesn't that mean after bringing them back to 6 you'd be forced to remove one again because they're not meeting the coherency rules for a unit of 6?

It's never been a big issue. @That Guyexplained the rules well. You get a chance to move before you check coherence again.

Or, it's not your turn next, the enemy attacks, and 5 hosts becomes 4. Your turn comes next, so you return models such that you have 4 in front rank and 2 in the rear rank (ie 2 triangles formations) and you're back to your starting formation!  No problem. 

Helps to pay a little attention to the formation, and be careful where you assign damage (you don't want the damaged SH to be in the middle of the pack after you return slain models to it).

 

 

[bonzai]

So at the start of 2nd edition I bought my wife a Night Haunt army. She played a little, but lost interest. Now she is looking to start up again with the new edition. I am kind of at a loss as to where to start. So I threw something together in the AP.

Battle Regiment

Guardian of Souls (General): Ruler of the Spirit Hosts, Beacon of Nagashizzar, Lifestealer Points 135 pts

Nagash 970 pts

Lady Olynder: Shadmist 215 pts

20 Chainrasp Horde 190 pts

3 Spirit Hosts 125 pts

3 Spirit Hosts 125 pts

10 Dreadscythe Harridans 160 pts

Nagash 970 pts

Lady Olynder: Shadmist 215 pts

Endless Spells/Invocations

Emerald Lifeswarm 60 pts 

Total Points: 1980 pts 

My problem with making Night Haunt lists is that I feel like there is never enough room to fit everything you seem to want in a list. It feels like it wants to be a horde army, but doesn't seem to ever play that way. You also want lots of support heroes to baby sit your units, but never seems like you can fit enough to cover everything. So some general design guidance would be appreciated. But at least this is a starting point.

[EnixLHQ]

On 12/24/2021 at 3:24 PM, Rors said:

How does the rules interactions work with bringing back models for this?

You drop down from 6 and now you can attack with 5 but you also change your coherency to do so. When you out models back and go up to 6, you can't move any of them. Doesn't that mean after bringing them back to 6 you'd be forced to remove one again because they're not meeting the coherency rules for a unit of 6?

On 12/24/2021 at 4:22 PM, That Guy said:

Removing models by not being coherent happens at the end of a turn. You need to be sure to be coherent at the end of a turn. The moment your first guy dies. You drop down to the more lenient coherency rules of having a unit beween 2-5 models. Meaning your unit is coherent when the models are 1" horizontally distant from 1 model in the unit and 6" vertically(height). Being at 6 and above means that your models must now be at 1" horizontally distance from 2 models and 6" vertically. Bringing back models happens at the start of a turn in the hero phase. Which means you might heal back up to 6 models. As long as you end your move for that turn within the 6 model coherency, you will be fine. If not every single model that is not coherent will be removed from play. Although it's likely going to be just 1 if you mess up. The moment 1 drops, you go back to 2-5 model coherency, which you'll likely get.

6 hours ago, darkdaysdawn said:

It's never been a big issue. @That Guyexplained the rules well. You get a chance to move before you check coherence again.

Or, it's not your turn next, the enemy attacks, and 5 hosts becomes 4. Your turn comes next, so you return models such that you have 4 in front rank and 2 in the rear rank (ie 2 triangles formations) and you're back to your starting formation!  No problem. 

Helps to pay a little attention to the formation, and be careful where you assign damage (you don't want the damaged SH to be in the middle of the pack after you return slain models to it).

This isn't exactly right.

To clarify, coherency must always be observed and is checked at the end of every phase, and the consequence of being out of it is a loss of models at the end of the turn.

For example, you can never deploy a unit out of coherency. You can't knowingly move a unit out of coherency. And you can't return models out of coherency. This means that if you can't deploy in the area you wanted because doing so would force a model to a bit too far from the rest of the team to be coherent, then you can't even choose to deploy there. By the same token, you can't elect to move the unit in such a way that it would be out of coherency at the end of the move. (Though it is not a rule, it's good sportsmanship for you and your opponent to inform each other whenever a move isn't coherent on accident.)

The same applies when returning models with the added caveat that any models you return can only appear within 1" of a model from that target unit that was not returned earlier that phase, and you cannot use model return to breach the 3" enemy bubble unless the unit was already closer than 3". (This is where checking at the end of the phase is important. A unit that was in combat that loses all the models that were within 3" of the enemy and still had models outside that barrier is still considered in-combat for that phase, allowing models to be returned crossing that line. After the phase, though, it's no longer in combat if no model from that unit remains closer than 3".)

So that rules out you doing anything that puts you out of coherency by your own volition. That leaves becoming incoherent by something happening to you. There's two scenarios for that; your turn and not your turn.

If you are subjected to a unit losing coherency on your turn, then you have three options ahead of you. The first is your movement phase. If you still have a movement phase then you must use it to bring your unit back into coherency. You are still free to use that movement to do whatever else you wanted to do, but at the end of it you can't knowingly neglect bringing the unit into coherency. If you have already moved, then your next option is to charge. If you are in charge range, you can opt to attempt to do so (you can also opt not to and lose models at the end of the turn), and if your charge rolls is enough to make contact with the enemy you can consolidate as a part of the move. Finally, if you are subjected to model loss after the move and charge phases, then your last option is pile-in. Hopefully the unit that was rendered incoherent is in combat and you haven't activated it yet so you still have a pile-in move with which to consolidate.

If it is not your turn then unless you have an army ability to make a move of some sort (like Spectral Summons), your only option is pile-in. This is the exact reason to ever take our artefact Slitter and when to use it. You save your attack until the enemy unit you wish to target with it has already had a combat action, and then you select this bearer and activate Slitter. If you render that enemy unit out of cohesion they won't have any moves left (other than some army abilities) that can bring them back into coherency by the end of the turn.

It's only at the end of all of this that you finally check for model loss. Any unit, on both armies, with models out of coherency at the end of the turn (after battleshock) must remove models until all units are in coherency again. This applies to both armies at the same time, and any affects that trigger as a result of this happen at the same time with whoever's turn it just was resolving their effects first.

The last point to make about all this is the model return of 1" part, because I know it will be asked about. If you have a unit of 10 models and lost all but 1 of them and you are able to use a ton of model return abilities on it, you likely won't get all 9 missing models back. You have to pin all the returning models to the 1 that remained, and depending on base size that might only be 3 or 4. Chainrasps can double-up in ranks around that 1 model since a 25mm base is less than 1", so you have a significant chance at returning most of the unit.

Addendum: Forgot to address when a unit goes from 6+ models to 5 or fewer. Yes, a unit that drops below this threshold will have its coherency rules change to be looser. Technically, the the rule only changes at the end of any given phase that the unit dropped to 5 or fewer models, but I'm not aware of any nit-picky point where that will be called into question. After the phase changes, the new rule kicks in and the unit will be coherent by the new baseline.

Edited December 26, 2021 by EnixLHQ

[Mordread]

Thank you 

[darkdaysdawn]

12 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

This isn't exactly right.

To clarify....(very good explanation...see above)...

Thanks for all the additional clarification. 

To the person who asked initially, let me reiterate what I said in a slightly different way: 

If you put a unit of 6 models such that there are 4 in the front rank, and 2 in the rear so that it looks like two triangle formations with their corners touching, the rules that @EnixLHQ explained are pretty easy to follow.  I remove the rear rank models first when I take damage, so it's easy to return them later without any issues.  

Things can get a little tricky when you have 5 models and a chance to move.  If you really want to return #6 later, then don't stretch the unit of 5 into a line.  However, do you really want to return the 6th model?  What do you get for it?  You lose 6 attacks but increase the unit's total Wounds characteristic by 3.  If you're not facing an enemy that is likely to do 15 damage, then you don't need the 6th model to keep the unit from dying completely

I'm usually fine playing with 5, so I don't worry about returning Spirit Hosts until I'm down to 4, and then it's trivial to create the "double triangle" formation again.

Best advice:  Try it!  

Edited December 26, 2021 by darkdaysdawn

[Apple Nighthaunt]

I heard from a store manager that our new battletome is one of the next to come out!

[lare2]

4 hours ago, Apple Nighthaunt said:

I heard from a store manager that our new battletome is one of the next to come out!

I hope so but I'd take that with a pinch of salt. 

[spenson]

7 hours ago, Apple Nighthaunt said:

I heard from a store manager that our new battletome is one of the next to come out!

I also heard the same a while ago. We can only get better with a new BT.

[Rors]

I'm hesitantly optimistic. Some of the images released on the community page are definitely night haunt.

[LordPrometheus]

I heard a rumor that our new book is coming in October, think it came from Honest Wargamer. I'd love for it to be sooner, of course. 

[Sception]

Lotta inconsistent rumors.  One would think NH would be on the list for 2022, but no real way to say when yet.

[dmorley21]

25 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

I heard a rumor that our new book is coming in October, think it came from Honest Wargamer. I'd love for it to be sooner, of course. 

Nope - that came from 4chan. We all know anything from there is far from reliable. So we’ll see. 
 

There have been rumor engines that point to Nighthaunt. Assuming Idoneth comes out first, it will be the oldest book. And I did hear it mentioned on the cubic shenanigans podcast that one of the hosts heard rumors from publishers that Nighthaunt would be soon. I’d be surprised if it’s not this year. 
 

In the meantime, having Nagash is a breath of fresh air and Nagash lists should really be different than other Nighthaunt lists. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by dmorley21

[Drujeful]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

In the meantime, having Nagash is a breath of fresh air and Nagash lists should really be different than other Nighthaunt lists. 

I agree, we just need some official confirmation on whether he gets Hexwraith bodyguard or not. I feel like that might be the biggest impact on what kinds of lists Nagash brings to the table.

[dmorley21]

6 minutes ago, Drujeful said:

I agree, we just need some official confirmation on whether he gets Hexwraith bodyguard or not. I feel like that might be the biggest impact on what kinds of lists Nagash brings to the table.

You know my take if I’m not mistaken: RAW, yes; but there’s no way an unkillable Nagash is not getting fixed. Ask your TO, and don’t use the bodyguard for him in casual games is my recommendation. 
 

Emerald Host/Hexwraiths are still a good combo for him as they take full advantage of his resurrection rules and have good speed, which is Nagash’s main weakness. 

[That Guy]

When reading this at the bottom it says: "Fury of the Deep is due in early 2022, and there’s more news about salty sea-aelves and sizzling duardin coming.". Which most likely means that Fyreslayers and Idoneth are next up. Although I'm hoping for the 3 older death armies to get their tome in a row. Wishful thinking I know. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by That Guy

[lare2]

4 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Emerald Host/Hexwraiths are still a good combo for him as they take full advantage of his resurrection rules and have good speed, which is Nagash’s main weakness. 

I'd be shocked if Nagash is allowed to keep the RAW interpretation, which I agree does see him currently benefit from bodyguard Hex. As he's another general though, I've been thinking the crazy regen you mention would be great for keeping your actual general alive. Been looking at Lady O but her, Naggy and 3x5 Hex is not cheap. 

[Nagashfan]

Army Faction: Nighthaunt
    - Army Subfaction: Emerald Host
    - Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
    - Triumps: Prized Sorcery

LEADER

Lady Olynder (215)
    - General
    - Spells: Lifestealer

Nagash (955)

Krulghast Cruciator (120)
    - Artefacts: Pendant of the Fell Wind

BATTLELINE

1 x Spirit Hosts (250)

Hexwraiths (150)

Hexwraiths (150)

OTHER

Dreadscythe Harridans (160)

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

took the above list vs sons…. Played with hex bodyguard for nagash…. Was able to table the sons at end of round 4 at which point I was behind on points by two so easily able to make that in round 5

soul drain plus arcane bolts was great as was reaper scythe on the staff

[dmorley21]

@Nagashfan

Awesome. 
 

I like PotFW on the Krulghast; that might be the way to go over midnight tome.

Did you feel like you needed the bodyguard for Nagash? And how did the Spirit Hosts do? 

[darkdaysdawn]

12 hours ago, That Guy said:

When reading this at the bottom it says: "Fury of the Deep is due in early 2022, and there’s more news about salty sea-aelves and sizzling duardin coming.". Which most likely means that Fyreslayers and Idoneth are next up. Although I'm hoping for the 3 older death armies to get their tome in a row. Wishful thinking I know. 

I saw that too. They're getting a Battlebox so my guess is they're getting books soon too. Maybe they'll do a simultaneous release like SC and Orruks?  If so, I hope it's a trend.