AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Sception]

Doesn't matter how the emerald host ability is worded.  Nagash explicitly does not benefit from allegiance abilities, as part of his own rules.  No hexwraith bodyguard for him.

[LordPrometheus]

Just now, Sception said:

Doesn't matter how the emerald host ability is worded.  Nagash explicitly does not benefit from allegiance abilities, as part of his own rules.  No hexwraith bodyguard for him.

He's not, it's the Hexwraiths that gain the ability, not Nagash.

[Bayul]

1 hour ago, darkdaysdawn said:

PS:  Currently working on hexwraith conversions with Dreadblade bodies and Grimghast arms, but that's expensive, so I'll probably only build one unit with the spare Reaper parts I already have.

Kavalos Deathriders are already Nagash-themed. New Deathrattle Skeletons with halberds would probably make good horseman.

[Sception]

If the hexwraiths are using sn allegiance ability to protect nagash from damage, i don't think you're going to find many TOs who would agree that nagash isn't benefiting from that allegiance rule.

Doesn't matter which unit is activating or using the effect, nagash cannot benefit from it.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Sception

[Bayul]

11 minutes ago, Sception said:

Doesn't matter how the emerald host ability is worded.  Nagash explicitly does not benefit from allegiance abilities, as part of his own rules.  No hexwraith bodyguard for him.

This will be a Krulghast Cruciator-like debate again, right?

Don't exploit the crappy wording and play RAI. It's probably not intended for Nagash to benefit from this ability.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Bayul

[dmorley21]

6 minutes ago, Sception said:

If the hexwraiths are using sn allegiance ability to protect nagash from damage, i don't think you're going to find many TOs who would agree that nagash isn't benefiting from that allegiance rule.

Doesn't matter which unit is activating or using the effect, nagash cannot benefit from it.

This is why I think it needs to be cleared up. I've had two TOs tell me it does work, as it's not giving Nagash the allegiance ability. I'm expecting it to get FAQ'd at some point in the future. 

[LordPrometheus]

7 minutes ago, Bayul said:

This will be a Krulghast Cruciator-like debate again, right?

Don't exploit the crappy wording and play RAI. It's probably not intended for Nagash to benefit from this ability.

Funny you mention that, the Cruciator was FAQ'd to work the way we all understood it to work, ie, giving a 5+ Ward for everything, not just MWs.

Edited December 21, 2021 by LordPrometheus

[pnkdth]

4 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

He's not, it's the Hexwraiths that gain the ability, not Nagash.

"After you have chosen the Nighthaunt allegiance for your army, you can choose either the EMERALD HOST or REIKENOR’S CONDEMNED Procession keyword. All NIGHTHAUNT units in your army gain that keyword, and you can use that Procession’s allegiance abilities in addition to the Nighthaunt allegiance abilities."

This bit would suggest you cannot make use of this ability with Nagash since he's not a part of the procession (and therefore cannot tap into their allegiance abilities, more specifically, the allegiance ability 'knights of regret'). In other words, how do you activate an allegiance ability from a model which says it cannot benefit from it?

[Bayul]

2 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

Funny you mention that, the Cruciator was FAQ'd to work the way we all understood it to work, ie, giving a 5+ Ward for everything, not just MWs.

So... like intended?

[Sception]

Nagash doesn't gain/use the ability, the hexwraiths do, and the ability itself isn't worded in a way that it cares whether your general is emerald host or not (though previously there was no possibility of non-EH generals, so such wording wouldn't have been necessary).  However, even if it's the hexwraiths who have and use the ability, imo nagash would still be benefitting from it if they used it to protect nagash from damage, and it's that benefit that isn't allowed.  That's just imo, though, this does obviously require further clarification.

[EnixLHQ]

My opinion, but hey, I've been right before.

Hexwaiths jumping to take a bullet for Nagash is both RAW and RAI.

It's RAW because it's in writing. Hexwaiths, when included in the Emerald Host, get the ability to absorb damage that was directed at a general if they are within 3" of the general. It does not list being Nighthaunt as a requirement for the general. And, in fact, you don't even get the choice; if your general is about to take damage and a Hexwaith is near by, you must roll. Can't decide to just let a general take the wound.

It's RAI because why wouldn't Nagash have the ability to command his ghostly undead to take damage for him? It's not only exactly in his personality to do such a thing, but the Nighthaunt are arguably the least autonomous faction under his control. It'd take Olynder defying him in what would probably be a short-lived rebellion to keep a Hexy from tossing his horse at that damage.

And, if you want a more rules-lawyery reason why it's RAI, consider that Reikenor's Condemned has a provision for multiple generals, which brings us up to other tomes in terms of some new mechanics. Nagash is arguably the most well known alliance leader GW's got. Nagash was already allowed in Soulblight Gravelords in this exact way. And they took the time to update Nagash's warscroll and decrease some NH costs. None of this barred the interaction. Not to mention that a few other armies have a completely valid "immortal" hero they can field.

Now, will this always be the case? That depends on tournament results. If an Emerald Host/Nagash list dominates, then no. It'll be nerfed or just flat removed. If it prolongs otherwise losing games, then it'll be rewritten. But if it doesn't impact results much at all, then it'll be left alone.

Chances are having Hexwaiths absorb wounds for Nagash will just likely make us evaporate a pool of wounds that otherwise would do nothing all game, anyway. You'll have to spend your CP and a spell cast to keep him beefy, and I doubt he brings that much damage to the table (otherwise he'd be in every SG list), so you'll be propping up your only (or nearly only) effective unit on the board with extra points in horse bodies.

Our history with NH is that we get nerfed for no reason in the summer, get buffs around the holidays that then get retconned to not exist by the spring, and then ignored until Halloween where everyone remembers we exist and start the cycle all over again.

So, uh, instead of fighting over this why not just enjoy it while it lasts and have some fun?

[darkdaysdawn]

6 hours ago, Bayul said:

Don't exploit the crappy wording and play RAI. It's probably not intended for Nagash to benefit from this ability.

That is absolutely one way to interpret this change, and not unreasonable.  However, I will use this as an opportunity to contrast and compare the AoS 2.0 to 3.0 changes, RAW, that killed NH while making everyone else tougher...

If we are supposed to play "rules as intended", then why aren't we using Mystic Shield (which was improved for everyone else in 3.0, and removed for us, despite it being on all our wizards' original warscrolls).  Also, it's been 6 months and no mention of that in FAQs, so does that mean taking Mystic Shield away from NH was intended?  If that's the case, then it clearly sets a precedent (and probably not for the first time) that players should play RAW, not RAI, because GW's intentions are clearly anything by clear.

That's just my 0.02, but if I manage to buy, build, and paint a Nagash before this rule is FAQed, I intend to play it RAW, which in my mind allows hexwraiths to bodyguard because it is the hexwraiths exercising an allegiance ability, not Nagash.  TOs can, and will, rule how they want, but the majority of AoS games played are not at tournaments, so hey...play it how you like it, I guess? 

Probably won't make a huge difference for most players in most games -- especially compared to the the devastating changes from AoS 2.0 to 3.0, resulting from 2.0 RAW clashing with 3.0 RAW that took away Mystic Shield 2.0 and gave everyone else a more powerful Mystic Shield, plus also gave everyone else a non-magical version of Mystic Shield which we also don't get, thus creating, on average, a 25% power swing away from our favour (enemy uses AoA and we don't get AoD = 25% advantage to enemy), plus making garrisoning stronger for everyone else, and creating a Heroic Action we only get half of too.

I would still very much like to know why NH weren't allowed the benefit of Cover in 2.0? That's the only defensive bonus / ethereal rules interaction that was left intact between 2.0 and 3.0, and for the life of me, I still can't figure out why it exists.   Can a ghost not duck behind a wall?

Edited December 22, 2021 by darkdaysdawn
apostrophe; was missing part of sentence

[darkdaysdawn]

39 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

So, uh, instead of fighting over this why not just enjoy it while it lasts and have some fun?

That's basically what I was saying too.  It just took me 5 paragraphs to get there. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by darkdaysdawn

[mojojojo101]

11 hours ago, Sception said:

Nagash doesn't gain/use the ability, the hexwraiths do, and the ability itself isn't worded in a way that it cares whether your general is emerald host or not (though previously there was no possibility of non-EH generals, so such wording wouldn't have been necessary).  However, even if it's the hexwraiths who have and use the ability, imo nagash would still be benefitting from it if they used it to protect nagash from damage, and it's that benefit that isn't allowed.  That's just imo, though, this does obviously require further clarification.

Just my 2c, wrt allegiance abilities 'gains' and 'benefit from' are absolute miles apart.

If we say Nagash cannot benefit from allegiance abilities then surely he cannot gain any buffs from the spell lore or make use spell debuffs on enemy  units?

They might re-write this rule to be clearer who can benefit from it (wether that be chosen general or EH general or Nighthaunt general or whatever) but right now, RAW , it seems clear to me that Nagash would benefit.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

42 minutes ago, mojojojo101 said:

Just my 2c, wrt allegiance abilities 'gains' and 'benefit from' are absolute miles apart.

If we say Nagash cannot benefit from allegiance abilities then surely he cannot gain any buffs from the spell lore or make use spell debuffs on enemy  units?

They might re-write this rule to be clearer who can benefit from it (wether that be chosen general or EH general or Nighthaunt general or whatever) but right now, RAW , it seems clear to me that Nagash would benefit.

I think you are right to say that if we take "benefit" to mean "gain in any way from", then Nagash should not benefit from the bodyguard ability. But I also think that can't be the right interpretation of that term. We know this from the established interaction between spells and allies:

Allies don't benefit from allegiance abilities. Spell lores are allegiance abilities. But your regular wizards can still cast spells on allies, allowing them to "benefit" from their effects.

What's at issue here is who actually gets the ability from Emerald Host. If the Hexwraiths gain the ability to bodyguard generals, I don't think there is a problem. That's just a Nighthaunt unit using a Nighthaunt allegiance ability. But if the generals gain the ability to be bodyguarded by Hexwraiths, that would be a problem and Nagash would not benefit.

[Sception]

3 hours ago, mojojojo101 said:

If we say Nagash cannot benefit from allegiance abilities then surely he cannot gain any buffs from the spell lore or make use spell debuffs on enemy  units?

Spell lores are called out as an explicit exception to his inability to benefit from allegiance abilities.

[LordPrometheus]

30 minutes ago, Sception said:

Spell lores are called out as an explicit exception to his inability to benefit from allegiance abilities.

But if "benefit" means "profit in any way from" in this case, then if a different hero puts a debuff on an enemy, and Nagash attacks and kills it, that would not be allowed either, because he "benefited" from the debuff. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by LordPrometheus

[LordPrometheus]

15 hours ago, Bayul said:

So... like intended?

Several people on this very forum argued that it DOESN'T work that way, and said we were "exploiting crappy wording to gain an advantage" at the time. 

[LordPrometheus]

15 hours ago, Sception said:

Nagash doesn't gain/use the ability, the hexwraiths do, and the ability itself isn't worded in a way that it cares whether your general is emerald host or not (though previously there was no possibility of non-EH generals, so such wording wouldn't have been necessary).  However, even if it's the hexwraiths who have and use the ability, imo nagash would still be benefitting from it if they used it to protect nagash from damage, and it's that benefit that isn't allowed.  That's just imo, though, this does obviously require further clarification.

Here's the million dollar questions:

 

1. Do the Hexwraiths gain the mandatory bodyguard ability in Emerald Host?

 

2. Is Nagash always a general in NH armies, including Emerald Host?

 

The answer to both is yes. It seems pretty clear cut to me. It doesn't matter who the general is, the Hexwraiths get to bodyguard them. In fact, it is a mandatory rule. You don't get the option.

[Bayul]

1 hour ago, LordPrometheus said:

Several people on this very forum argued that it DOESN'T work that way, and said we were "exploiting crappy wording to gain an advantage" at the time. 

So? What's the point of your argument? Empowering Excruciation negating wounds and mortal wounds was intended.

[LordPrometheus]

41 minutes ago, Bayul said:

So? What's the point of your argument? Empowering Excruciation negating wounds and mortal wounds was intended.

The point of what I'm saying is that players disagree on "intent" all the time. I think Nagash getting Hexwraith bodyguards is absolutely intended in NH, just like I thought the Cruciator negating ALL wounds on 5s was intended. I was right about the Cruciator, but obviously some people disagreed at the time. I hope I'm also right about Nagash.

[spenson]

Nagash has some cool potential in the army (some spells are very good) and at least he doesn't have any competition for the mystic shield.

Assuming that the bodyguard thing works, I'd really like to try this list:

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Procession: Emerald Host
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (970)*
Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (180)*
- General
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (135)*
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage

Battleline
20 x Chainrasp Horde (190)*
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Chainrasp Horde (190)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Hexwraiths (150)*
5 x Hexwraiths (150)*

Endless Spells & Invocations
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2035 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 88
Drops: 1
 

With the drops in points (-15 Nagash, -20 Kurdoss), the list is exactly 2k points.

If you put both hexwraiths units within 3" of Nagash, even a shootcast army will have trouble killing it early.

I'm not sure if we can take Nagash as our sole general. If yes then it could deny a battle tactics from the opponent since it's the only monster in the army. 

It probably won't win against the most meta armies, but it could still be interesting to play. You just need to make sure that your units don't die in a single turn of combat.

Edited December 22, 2021 by spenson

[darkdaysdawn]

9 minutes ago, spenson said:

I'm not sure if we can take Nagash as our sole general. If yes then it could deny a battle tactics from the opponent since it's the only monster in the army. 

I do not believe we can -- AoS The App does not allow it.

I do think Kurdoss will be a lot stronger at 160 points though -- good inclusion.  If we can't use all the new defensive buffs, or Mystic Shield 3.0, then at least we can try to deny 1/3rd of the opportunities for our opponent to use those things against us.  And at 160, only 40 more than KoSoES, you get +1 Wounds and better damage output.

[darkdaysdawn]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the nerfing of Heroic Recovery here yet.  I think that's really going to hurt NH.

We already have wimpy heroes, who don't get Mystic Shield (but used to), All Out D, or Finest Hour.  A Spirit Torment is great for healing heroes, but costs 115, which eats into our "fighting budget".  Life Stealer and Spectral Tether require a target in range, and are unreliable (especially with all the unbinding bonuses enemies get). 

I've been using Heroic Recovery quite a bit so my heroes can actually enter combat and maybe not die.  Now GW have made it less reliable (no longer heals 1 wound if the 2d6 roll ties your bravery), and it can't be used in combat (must be 3" from all enemies).  It's utility has been greatly diminished, to the point that I don't think it'll be useful at all.

We're now down to 1 useful Heroic Action for NH:  Heroic Leadership.  Willpower is unnecessary (we have lots of wizards), Finest Hour only half works, and now Recovery can't be used when we need it most.

I'm totally baffled?  Unless you want to play Nagash, we're now even more useless than we were 2 days ago.  (And if you're playing a 1k game, Nagash isn't an option).

Edited December 22, 2021 by darkdaysdawn

[Dogmantra]

34 minutes ago, darkdaysdawn said:

 Now GW have made it less reliable (no longer heals 1 wound if the 2d6 roll ties your bravery),

While no longer being able to heroic recovery while within 3" of an enemy is unquestionably a nerf, I think you may have misread this change. It does d3 healing if the 2d6 is less than or equal to your bravery. So in that regard it was improved.