AoS3 - Lumineth Realm-lords Discussion

[JackStreicher]

3 hours ago, Tango Trooper said:

Yeah. I've been dicing with windchargers myself. I love the new ward ignores for the windcharger bows.

Wasn't there a new subfactions that grants +1 attack to ranged attacks within a certain range? Might be really cool with windchargers!

[Azamar]

New warscrolls are up on the app. A subtle but welcome change- looks like sunmetal weapons now affect all non mount attacks for the units that have them- meaning the champion’s weapons (and sentinel’s melee attacks) can now cause mortals as well

[Tango Trooper]

Yeah I think Helon gives the +1 attack when in 6inches of an enemy unit. I considered 3 units of 10 Windchargers with 12 inch range, 2 units of 10 sentinels for 30 inch range and 3 ballistas with 36 inch range for a fully ranged army. With scinari general and 5 blade masters for bodyguards.

Would be a general mess around Helon list lol.

[readercolin]

Winning with Lumineth got a lot harder because you can't rely on Sentinels to carry you anymore.  However, the biggest buff to Lumineth was the change to Shining Company, because now you can get offensive with your wardens and bladelords while still keeping your defensive buffs.  I also do think that you need to make sure that you aren't sleeping on the offensive power of wardens because they can actually be surprisingly killy.  Being able to choose your engagements makes coming out on top a lot more likely, and previously you had to give up your defensive buffs to be able to choose your engagements with them.  I think that the end result is that the best Lumineth armies are going to be mixed arms forces.  All this being said, I'm not sure that Lumineth will be all that successful until bounty hunters goes away simply because we have to have our battleline, and unless you go Helon that will have to be Galletian Veterans.

Below are some of the builds that I am looking to test, and keep in mind that basically everything is going to be a battle regiment unless I specifically note otherwise.

Mixed Arms:

Vanari Lord Regent
Scinari Enlightener
Light of Eltharion
2x 20 Wardens
30 Sentinels
Ballista
1-2 units of dawnriders or windchargers

This is the list that I'm highest on, though I expect there to be some tweaking needed with exact numbers.  The reason I'm high on it is that you have 2 hammers that can both strike at once in the wardens, you have sufficient ranged power in the sentinels and ballista's, and you have the dawnriders or windchargers for objective snagging or general mobility, giving you a well rounded force.  This list I would prefer to run in Zaitrek, because that +1 to casting rolls is so valuable in my experience, but the exact distribution of spells is definitely up in the air.

Teclis focused:

Teclis
Scinari Enlightener
30-40 wardens
30-40 Sentinels
Umbral Spellportal

I don't think that teclis focused builds changed all that much, as you want to run teclis, another dude as your general, and then have some wardens for screening and smashing, and some sentinels for shooting.  Here, I am operating under the assumption that there was a typo and Teclis is going to get FAQ'd to know all of the lore spells, as without that I'm not sure that he is going to be worth 700 points.  The biggest question comes down to points, and whether it is worth running 2 squads of sentinels side by side for the extra range, or running a single squad and using the teleport spell to get them into position as needed.  Additionally, whether the wardens are blocks of 10, or blocks of 20 is still up in the air.  All this being said, this build has clearly been nerfed without lambent light, and I'm of the opinion that this is likely the least viable of potential builds, but also the easiest for people who previously had competitive lists to test out.

Melee Time:

Scinari Enlightener
The Light of Eltharion
Avalenor
3x 20 wardens
20 Sentinels

This build is looking to focus on the melee hitting power of wardens, with Avalenor and the Light of Eltharion backing them up and the sentinels there solely to pick up support pieces or fragile ranged units that you might otherwise run into issues beating.  Arguments could be made for a Vanari Lord-Regent instead of the Enlightener, and once again I would probably run Zaitrec with this list, though you could go Ymetrica to let Avalenor ignore rend -2, alumnia for better objective control, or Syar for more aetherquartz fun times.

Stoneguard:

Alarith Stonemage
Avalenor
Scinari Enlightener
15 Stoneguard
2x 10 wardens
2x 20 Sentinels

I may be down on Stoneguard, but I'm willing to give them a chance.  Like I have stated earlier, I don't believe it is worth investing in more than a single squad of them, but you can take that squad, back it up with Avalenor and a stonemage, and make it do some work for you.  I'm not entirely sure of how points works out with this build, so you might swap the enlightener out for a Cathellar, and I could also see arguments for a Lord-Regent as well.  This is also a build where it is arguable that you might want Expert Conquerers so that you can get that 4+ ward against mortals on the stoneguard more consistently, but there is also still a reasonable argument for staying battle regiment.

Ranged Superiority:

Windmage
Cathellar
Sevireth
2x 20 Sentinels
2x 10 Windchargers
5 Windchargers

This obviously has to be a Helon army for battleline reasons alone.  Personally, I'm pretty doubtful about this list's performance because its damage output is so low, but at the same time, it has nearly unmatched mobility and you would need to remember that you can pile your windchargers OUT of combat (and 6"), which makes this a hard list for many to engage with.  Unless it REALLY impresses me though, I'm proxying this one for a bit, because I really, really don't want to paint another 20 windchargers...

Overall, as I said I'm highest on the mixed arms build and expect that to do the best of the options I'm considering.  However, the build that I am most excited to try out is the melee build, but that might just be because I like melee armies.  I do however wish that Lumineth could take Cities as allies, because backing up a squad of wardens with a frostheart phoenix seems like a dream made in heaven to me.

[Tango Trooper]

We can have cities as allies. As well as the other order factions.

[readercolin]

It may be that the image I got was too blurred, but from the GMG review I saw Stormcast, DoK, Idoneth, and Sylvaneth as the only allies.  I will of course be confirming once I can get my book this weekend, but I didn't see Cities on that list.

[Tango Trooper]

This is an important point as Lumineth Realm-Lords armies can now select allies from Stormcast, Cities of Sigmar, Sylvaneth and Idoneth Deepkin!

I haven't received my battletome yet but the reference is from:

https://spruesandbrews.com/2022/10/08/new-battletome-lumineth-realm-lords-2022-review-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/

[Howdyhedberg]

3 hours ago, readercolin said:

It may be that the image I got was too blurred, but from the GMG review I saw Stormcast, DoK, Idoneth, and Sylvaneth as the only allies.  I will of course be confirming once I can get my book this weekend, but I didn't see Cities on that list.

I also didn't see Cities of Sigmar, but it would be neat since my first army was Cities of Sigmar, and then I got Stormcast with the dominion box.

Looking at windchargers, it says that ward rolls cannot be made for wounds or mortal wounds caused by attacks made with missile weapons by this unit. Wind chargers are not able to do mortal wounds though, right?


Does the daggers really count in "sunmetal weapons" for sentinels? the "fluff" text says arrows and blades, but the rules say attacks made by this unit.

 

Is it just me or does bladelords not feel more worth taking now?

 

Another question that came up last time I played a game (sometime before summer)

The Wall of blades on wardens, is that if my wardens charge that trigger the ability, or is it if they get charged by someone? I get confused since it says "the target unit"

 

Teclis - Same as before but after som dmg its 2 spells that are cast as a d12 and then in the end only 4 spells with d10 roll?

[OkayestDM]

11 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

Looking at windchargers, it says that ward rolls cannot be made for wounds or mortal wounds caused by attacks made with missile weapons by this unit. Wind chargers are not able to do mortal wounds though, right?

Windchargers do not deal mortal wounds. That said, if they are taken as an ally in an army with a priest, the Priest might Curse a unit, and then the Windcharger attacks could deal mortals.  That's why the ability is worded that way.

12 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

Does the daggers really count in "sunmetal weapons" for sentinels? the "fluff" text says arrows and blades, but the rules say attacks made by this unit.

As the rule is currently written, both the ranged and melee attacks deal mortals on 6s. I'm sure folks will be asking about this and that it will be clarified in the FAQ - a month or two form now.

14 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

Is it just me or does bladelords not feel more worth taking now?

Bladelords are slightly better than before. Perfect Strike has become Mortal Wounds, and they Flurry of Blows now benefits from Sunmetal weapons, making their attacks more reliable and effective. They're not crazy good, but they can be useful now. More of a utility unit than a dedicated melee hammer.

18 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

The Wall of blades on wardens, is that if my wardens charge that trigger the ability, or is it if they get charged by someone? I get confused since it says "the target unit"

Wardens trigger their ability if they attack an enemy unit that charged that turn. Note that the unit doesn't necessarily have to have charged them, it just has to have made a charge. The Wardens get no buff if they charge.

22 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

Teclis - Same as before but after som dmg its 2 spells that are cast as a d12 and then in the end only 4 spells with d10 roll?

Correct. Teclis's ability remains the same, but his options available for autocasting shrink as he takes damage now.

[CommissarRotke]

3 hours ago, Tango Trooper said:

This is an important point as Lumineth Realm-Lords armies can now select allies from Stormcast, Cities of Sigmar, Sylvaneth and Idoneth Deepkin!

I haven't received my battletome yet but the reference is from:

https://spruesandbrews.com/2022/10/08/new-battletome-lumineth-realm-lords-2022-review-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/

With the Stormcast new book and with new Annihilators I suggested the ghur battlemage from COS to help with charge and run rolls. if Lumineth needs/wants that on slower troops, take a look https://wahapedia.ru/aos3/factions/cities-of-sigmar/Battlemage

@JackStreicher did NOT know about foam rubbing colors off dangit, magnets it is

[JackStreicher]

9 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

did NOT know about foam rubbing colors off dangit, magnets it is

You won’t regret it!

When I moved a few months ago one of our cats tried to climb a wardrobe and in the process threw my magnetic army box off of it. The box dropped approx. 2m, while spinning wildly.

Instead of massacring all of my stored Daughters of Khaine I only had some snapped weapons and heads breaking off (out of 15 Khinerai only 2 Khinerai snapped off their tails) (were glued with super glue back in the day)

 

They‘re fine again ^^

Edited October 14, 2022 by JackStreicher

[Tango Trooper]

I'm running an elite ymmetrica force around teclis for the FNP. I might switch in Idoneth Priest with Bless for the FNP. I checked out the battlemages and I do love the look of lightning chain. At the moment searing white light is my main magical damage.

My army only has 19 models at 2000 points. My stoneguard are ultra buffed but in units of 5. I will see how well the cohesion lasts because 19 models is a tad on the slim side. The army has a total of 82 wounds right now lol.

[undeadheadz]

On 10/13/2022 at 10:30 AM, Tango Trooper said:

Yeah. I've been dicing with windchargers myself. I love the new ward ignores for the windcharger bows. Still not convinced I want to drop from 24 inch range and lore of hysh on the sentinels to 12inch range and no wizards in windchargers though. However, windchargers have a plush movement unlike the sentinels and stoneguard so it could be an excellent counter balance.

I've taken into consideration all of the wild claims on reddit about unit combinations which trash lumineth armies. For the most part the -2 negation to rend from the stoneguard counters a lot of those issues.

The days of suicidal lambent light casters have gone. There weren't high tactics in the sentinels spam. I also ran Alarith Temple Battalion with no sentinels back then.

I was gutted when Alarith Temple Battalion was removed from matched play but the changes to alarith in the newest battletome has put my mind at ease. We can still save stack to +1 for stoneguard but it's not the default play, it's a special case when faced with -3 rend attacks.

The weakness in Alarith Temple Battalion was not the limited movement per say, but, the lack of ranged counter play. Hence why I mixed in sentinels and windchargers instead of a Mountain Spirit as soon as Alarith Temple Battalion was removed from match play.

If your dicing with getting wind chargers do it I thoroughly reccomend it for a fun and different style of play, for the past year I've been playing around with a list something along the lines of 3x 10 wind chargers(previously hunters of hearthland changed to bounty hunters)  2 x 5 Dawn riders, sevireth, cathallar, loreseeker and a windmage, was alot of fun in a helon list, Good against most, hit walls vs things like beastclaws or sons, lots of fun  though still

All I've got to say is positioning is vital, even more so now where you can't pop a command ability to run after fighting (goodbye days of using the fox turn 1 like a 48" move yo yo to strike and assassinate a hero, then charge something that won't kill it and retreat back to where it started)

With the ability to negate wards on shooting and the 6" for an additional attack  rather than 3" in helon they're definitely worth considering

Disclaimer - painting 30 windchargers is torture, be fully aware of what your getting

[Tango Trooper]

I'm just waiting on my battletome to see if we get Daughters of Khaine or Cities of Sigmar as allies. I hope for Cities of Sigmar for another who wants a Frostheart Phoenix.

Do you think MSU would be best for windchargers - 6 units of 5 rather than 3 units of 10? I've watched some games with Windchargers but the player wasted them and didn't get a shot off. I was disappointed with the performance. I think he was Zaitrec at the time though.

[Azamar]

2 hours ago, Tango Trooper said:

I'm just waiting on my battletome to see if we get Daughters of Khaine or Cities of Sigmar as allies. I hope for Cities of Sigmar for another who wants a Frostheart Phoenix.

Based on the app looks like daughters can be allies but cities not

[Tango Trooper]

Okay awesome news. Thank you mate

[readercolin]

The only reason I see to run reinforced units of windchargers is if you need to get into battle regiment.  Yes, a reinforced unit gets the benefit of all out attack, but unless you are taking a block of 15, I'm not seeing that as really where you want to be spending your CP's.  They aren't strong melee units either, so having a reinforced unit to hit harder there isn't a huge bonus.  That being said, getting into battle regiment is important enough that you may still see reinforced squads so that you can fit into it.

Also, just got around to watching Warhammer Weekly on the new book, and at the end (3:03:40) he states that allies are Daughters, IDK, Sylvaneth and Stormcast, so unless he failed to read the page properly, no Cities allies.

[Tango Trooper]

Msu is good for board control and helps with a staggered approach now we can't use the hit and run function with Helon.

The hurakan victory condition also states 3 units must be within 6 inches of the same enemy unit at the end of the game.

I feel msu would work better in these circumstances. However, it is better to have bounty hunter on 30 models than 15. The tactics relate to Mortek Guard MSU style play. I realise Mortek Guard are better in melee but we get the extra attack within 6 inches now.

I will have to play around with the two setups and see which style suits my particular play styles. Difficult to decide without both options being tested.

[Tango Trooper]

Found a cheat: Krondspine in wild form with three harukan units in the back lines gets the harukan victory condition.

The harukan victory condition is easy to achieve if you get the last turn against another but when the opponent gets the last turn they can deny the victory condition without krondspine.

I apologise for double post.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I have my battletome, it's definitely Stormcast, Sylvaneth, Idoneth Deepkin and Daughters of Khaine as allies, so that is the correct list.

I was hoping we'd see Cities of Sigmar as allies, but not yet it seems.

[OkayestDM]

2 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

I have my battletome, it's definitely Stormcast, Sylvaneth, Idoneth Deepkin and Daughters of Khaine as allies, so that is the correct list.

I was hoping we'd see Cities of Sigmar as allies, but not yet it seems.

To be fair, it's part of the lore that the Lumineth and the Cities are finding themselves at odds with each other, both because of the Lumineth's willingness to sacrifice others in order to purge chaos from the area, and because several of the Dawnbringer Crusades are being manipulated by Tzeentch to encroach on Lumineth territories.

I'm also a little sad that the two can't ally, but at least it matches the lore.

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 minute ago, OkayestDM said:

To be fair, it's part of the lore that the Lumineth and the Cities are finding themselves at odds with each other, both because of the Lumineth's willingness to sacrifice others in order to purge chaos from the area, and because several of the Dawnbringer Crusades are being manipulated by Tzeentch to encroach on Lumineth territories.

I'm also a little sad that the two can't ally, but at least it matches the lore.

That's a good point. I do understand why they can't, but it would be nice for Settler's Gain for instance to be represented and allied.

Either way, it is nice that there are some amount of alliances now.

[Bosskelot]

What's the general consensus of Bladelords now? Worth maybe taking in a unit of 10 even?

[OkayestDM]

4 hours ago, Bosskelot said:

What's the general consensus of Bladelords now? Worth maybe taking in a unit of 10 even?

One unit of 10 or one or two units of five both seem like decent options, though I'm not sure if we'll ever want much more than that. A 10-man unit could reliably drop 7-9 mortal wounds with perfect strike, which can kill a number of mounted heroes outright, and could also clear units like Annihilators (high damage but low wounds) very effectively. The mortal wound output from the Flurry of Blows makes them much more appealing and more useful, especially if you've got a Lord Regent there to buff it. A 10-man unit using Flurry of Blows could deliver some serious hurt under the right circumstances.

They aren't the all-purpose infantry hammer I had hoped they would be, but I'm honestly pretty happy with where they stand.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

I'm not sure Bladelords compare favorably to Wardens still, honestly. Sure, they have Sunmetal weapons on the Flurry of Blows now, but they also have half the number of models an equivalent Warden unit does, so the Wardens are usually more dangerous. I like the new Perfect Strike as a bit of design, but from a "role in the army" sense, I think it would have been better to just keep the old profile and make it damage 2 so they could be a hammer. Ah well--hopefully Tyrion's wave will deliver what I'm looking for, and in the meantime, the new S2D release is keeping me too busy to build my Lumineth anyways.