AoS3 - Lumineth Realm-lords Discussion

[Frowny]

Making it more expensive may make it balanced, but it won't get rid of the NPE of feeling like you can't do your thing. In some ways it makes it worse because now the lumineth player has a negative play experience where their spells don't work and they can't do their thing!

Not saying it wasn't a good change though.

[Tango Trooper]

I prefer Howling Gale to Total Eclipse. I don't use Teclis though. I often use overwhelm tactics and dismantle units in isolation. I realise total eclipse can double the cp cost but I prefer to block the cp use in the entirety for units I'm engaged with. Howling gale has also increased in cast roll though.

I'm not sure whether to switch Howling gale for transportation vortex now that both have high casts. Prior to the change all of my wizards needed cast rolls no higher than 6. Too bad these low cast spells have been removed.

[OkayestDM]

With the changes to Shining Company, it's impressive just how swift our army can be now, which is very gratifying. Speed of Hysh and Teleportation Vortex give us some solid maneuverability options, as does the entire Hurakan side of the range.  Have an Enlightened double-tap Speed of Hysh to get two units exactly where we want them.

That was one of my gripes with the first book. Hysh is supposed to be a place of physical and mental alacrity, but old shining company made our forces quite slow. Once again, GW has done a good job of making the army play the way you think it should.

[Tizianolol]

Mu only big question is: teclis knows every spell ? Or not? I think they faq but im not so sure

[Tango Trooper]

I believe it was an oversight that teclis doesn't know all lores. I believe it will be corrected. I was shocked to see the efficiency of casting being tied to wounds for teclis though. I only hope Nagash and other large casters get the same treatment.

[OkayestDM]

Interestingly, the Wind Spirits are listed a Leaders in the points section of the book. I wonder if they got the hero keyword? If so, that actually makes them much more appealing to me.

 

EDIT: Never mind. Double-checked the Facehammer review. No Hero keyword.

Edited October 9, 2022 by OkayestDM

[Tango Trooper]

The enlightener certainly has a pull now she can double deal overwhelming heat and solar flare. My stonemages have lost the usual attacks alongside the zaitrec overwhelming heat. I might take 2 enlighteners to deal damage in my 3000 point list. Speed of hysh is still on my archers and I don't feel the need to double dose speed of hysh.

[Frowny]

The hammerers seem like they have legs. 3+ save ignore up to tend 2 is very sturdy. How many points are they again? Maybe supported by some of the wind chargers to take out threats and add some mobility

[Tango Trooper]

The stoneguard are still 120 points I think. They get +4 save, +4 mortal wounds save on owned objectives. Ignore -1 and -2 rend in Ymmetrica. +2 rend and deal mortal wounds on +5 with the stonemage's new spell.

You can also boost the stoneguard to 3 wounds each with the command traits, -1 miss chance (not stackable) from Avelenor/Spirit and gain an extra attack.

 

My batteline are stoneguard in Ymmetrica and they are much better than Wardens now. Even with the old battalion not being played in matched play.

 

Edit: clarification on stonemage spell

Edited October 9, 2022 by Tango Trooper

[OkayestDM]

The Stoneguard also deal Mortal wounds in addition, making them significantly better.

[Tango Trooper]

Yeah, with both weapon options it is 6 to mortal wound now. I advise using a banner in larger groups of stoneguard because Calming Zephyr has lost the immunity to battleshock and stonemage has lost the battleshock immunity spell too. You could still run a cathallar for the battleshock tests as well.

I would also advise the seneschal be given the same weapons as the rest of the unit. Only the bannermen should use a stratum.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Tango Trooper

[readercolin]

What exactly are you guys looking at that make you think that stonguard have any hope of even hitting the table?

Lets compare them with their chief rivals - Wardens.  What are the stats? 

Stoneguard have a 4" move, 3+ save, ignore rend -1 (but hit them with rend -2 and it is still rend -2, not reduced by 1...).  2 attacks each at 3+/3+/-1/1, 6's to hit are a mortal wound in addition, the unit leader can get 4 attacks instead of 2 without rend, but still proccing the mortals (note, the bannerman is now counted as having a stone mallet or diamondpick hammer, not a stratum hammer... so basically treat it like anyone else - and I'm sorry for anyone who thought the paired hammers were trash before because now the champion doesn't get any bonuses if he isn't running them).  4+ ward against mortals if they are sitting on an objective that you control (which means they have to be defending it, you can't get this buff until you take the objective from your opponent).  And they can have their mortals proc on a 5+ IF you have a stonemage who comes along with them and takes a spell from the Lore of the mountains.  Finally, you can get +1 attack if you bring a spirit of the mountain.

Wardens are basically the same.  1 wound each, 6" move, 4+ save, 2 attacks each at 3+/4+/-/1, but 6's to hit are a mortal wound and they can make themselves 5+ to hit is a mortal.  And they have a -1 to hit as long as every model is touching 2 other models.

So if you take a squad of 10 wardens, they dish out an average of 10 damage if they get off their spell for a 5+ mortals, and about 7.28 against a 2+ save.  Note here that they do this without needing any buff pieces, this is the warscroll out of the box.  Meanwhile, take a squad of stoneguard and you get 7.33 damage out of the box without any other buff pieces, and only 3.48 against a 2+ save.  If you take that stonemage AND a spirit of the mountains, use the spell from the stonemage to buff the stoneguard (which can only be used on a single squad), you can get them up to 13.22 damage before saves and 7.81 to a 2+.  Basically, stoneguard can only compete with wardens offensively if you bring another 500 points of buff pieces.  If you think the Spirit of the Mountain is worth bringing on its own, and leave off the mortal buff spell, then you get stoneguard doing 10.39 damage before saves, and 4.98 to a 2+ or again, a worse unit than a squad of wardens.

Defensively, they serve different purposes.  Against chaff (4+/4+/-/1), wardens are the clear leader (surprise surprise), though give that chaff rend -1 and stoneguard come out slightly ahead.  Against elite units (3+/3+/-1/1), stoneguard gain a small lead, though as soon as rend -2 hits the field wardens win again unless you are Ymetrica, in which case, sure, bring a squad (but then you have to justify why you are going ymetrica over say, zaitrec for the +1 to cast instead).

Basically, what I'm saying here is that the amount of support that you need to get stoneguard to compete with just plain old wardens makes them less viable than just bringing more wardens.  Their role isn't different enough from each other to be worth bringing, and they don't compare as melee damage dealers to what other factions can bring to the table.  Sure, we can go ymetrica, bring a single block of 15 of them, give them mystic shield, the 5+ mortal spell, and back them up with a moo cow, and send them up the field, but they are slow enough that your opponent will just ignore them, go around them, or just chaff them, and you would do better to use those 2 reinforcment points beefing up something else, like your sentinels.

[OkayestDM]

It's less that the Stoneguard are expected to be heavy hitters, and more that they're expected to be usable (which they weren't really before.) We don't think they're going to single-handedly change the power-structure of Lumineth armies. We're just glad that our cool units will actually be able to do some work!

Also, synergies and buff stacking may not be the most optimized way to operate, but they're really fun to pull off, and now we'll actually be rewarded for investing in it.

 

[Tango Trooper]

The stoneguard are the anvil and would use Bonded in Battle (all models in unit can hit units 1/2 inch from touched model). The game is about points scored and expert conquerors turn 10 stoneguard into 30 on an objective with a +4 save and +4 mortal wound save.

The +2 rend from the stonemage means +5 and +6 saves are nullified unless ethereal Blessing or rend negations are used against stoneguard. The Stoneguard can also push other units off objectives. 10 stoneguard have 20 wounds combined and 10 wardens only have 10 wounds.

We don't field stoneguard to kill enemies, we field stoneguard to hold enemies. Age of Sigmar is a fast paced game with a lot of death. Some units can wipe 10 Wardens before the wardens can even retaliate. 20 wardens cost 290 points and 10 stoneguard cost 240 points.

When we take 3 units of stoneguard as batteline the stonemage has already been paid for by the lower point costs compared to wardens.

[JackStreicher]

Quite controversial opinion:

They should have binned and rewritten the book.

It is still the Incarnation of NPE and mental load, with a new cover and 4 Warscroll Abilities less. Leaving total eclipse, Teclis (mostly) and the command ability block untouched is really a slap in the face.

 

Edit: This way the vast majority of the cummunity (talking about the 2% of comp. Players) still has powerful tools while the minority (the rest) will continue to have ruined games. Or people outright refusing to play against LRL - totally worth it. That’s how you create good games, fun experiences and the urge to play again.

Edited October 10, 2022 by JackStreicher

[Tango Trooper]

It's no worse than Blood Knights riding over the Stoneguard or Sons of Behemot kicking units off objectives...bounty hunter also increases the damage inflicted on stoneguard. The game is about counter plays.

[OkayestDM]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Quite controversial opinion:

They should have binned and rewritten the book.

It is still the Incarnation of NPE and mental load, with a new cover and 4 Warscroll Abilities less. Leaving total eclipse, Teclis (mostly) and the command ability block untouched is really a slap in the face.

 

Edit: This way the vast majority of the cummunity (talking about the 2% of comp. Players) still has powerful tools while the minority (the rest) will continue to have ruined games. Or people outright refusing to play against LRL - totally worth it. That’s how you create good games, fun experiences and the urge to play again.

I don't think it's quite that bad. You're definitely right that Teclis remains largely the same, and there are still a few NPE rules options left (why is Total Eclipse still a thing?) But the book is much better than it was.  

The rules mental load is a matter of personal taste. I'm happy that they've been simplified from what they were, but I also enjoy the process of making the complexity work. It's one of the things that appealed to me from the very beginning with LRL.

I suspect this book will be like most everything else released for 3E, lots of folks predicting doom and gloom before the book has hit the table, then everybody realizing that, outside of a few things, it's actually in a pretty good place and not nearly as bad as folks predicted.

 

But fair is fair, and we'll have to wait and see. Unfortunately, LRL earned itself that bad reputation, and only time will tell if enough has been done to pull it out of the doghouse.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by OkayestDM

[Tango Trooper]

Here is the link I referenced:

https://www.goonhammer.com/lumineth-realm-lords-2022-the-goonhammer-review/

I won't receive the battletome myself until release day on 15th.

 

[lare2]

Anyone got access to a snazzy collection of the new rules in pdf format? As in, has anyone went to the effort of screenshotting man reads book and combining them?

[woolf]

23 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

It is still the Incarnation of NPE and mental load, with a new cover and 4 Warscroll Abilities less. Leaving total eclipse, Teclis (mostly) and the command ability block untouched is really a slap in the face.

Mental load I would agree, but then again some armies should be more complex imo to cater for players who wants that, and moving abilities to warscrolls makes it way easier for an opponent who doesnt own the book as you can just look up what they do. Re NPE, they killed off the foxes, the sentinels ignoring LOS, Lambent light, Cathallar battleshock shift and they moved eclipse to CV 9... So I honestly struggle to see how this book is now "more NPE" than a lot of other armies in this game, to keep pushing that line of argument seems more out of legacy than forward looking

Then they buffed the stoneguard and the bladelords which imo was great moves. Wind temple I think is in quite a weird spot now but maybe there is some use for them

Sure Teclis can autocast but I dont see him being worse than Morathi/Nagash/Kroak etc in terms of what he can do and he is still fragile and expensive... without the Sentinels block to deal out damage Im not sure how well Teclis builds are going to work. Maybe we will see him with a bunch of melee units which could be a nice mix up from the old sentinel build (and that was tbh quite uninteractive and easy to see why people had an issue with)

[Tango Trooper]

I wouldn't go all melee with Teclis due to ranged armies. Ranged armies were a pain prior to the alarith temple battalion removal from matched play. There must be counter play to stop unit snipes.

Of course, you can still be sniped but the screen is more capable with sentinels in front of wizards. The screen can also unleash hell and shoot twice. I don't particularly fish for mortals with my sentinels, merely use them to zone block when possible.

We only have to survive and score points for 5 turns. Synergies are important and the synergies have been improved. I prefer the new setup compared to the old Alarith Temple Battalion. I've even removed my spirit of the mountain.

[chosen_of_khaine]

On 10/10/2022 at 6:02 AM, JackStreicher said:

Quite controversial opinion:

They should have binned and rewritten the book.

It is still the Incarnation of NPE and mental load, with a new cover and 4 Warscroll Abilities less. Leaving total eclipse, Teclis (mostly) and the command ability block untouched is really a slap in the face.

 

Edit: This way the vast majority of the cummunity (talking about the 2% of comp. Players) still has powerful tools while the minority (the rest) will continue to have ruined games. Or people outright refusing to play against LRL - totally worth it. That’s how you create good games, fun experiences and the urge to play again.

Controversial, maybe. Predictable, absolutely.

[chosen_of_khaine]

5 hours ago, woolf said:

Mental load I would agree, but then again some armies should be more complex imo to cater for players who wants that, and moving abilities to warscrolls makes it way easier for an opponent who doesnt own the book as you can just look up what they do. Re NPE, they killed off the foxes, the sentinels ignoring LOS, Lambent light, Cathallar battleshock shift and they moved eclipse to CV 9... So I honestly struggle to see how this book is now "more NPE" than a lot of other armies in this game, to keep pushing that line of argument seems more out of legacy than forward looking

Then they buffed the stoneguard and the bladelords which imo was great moves. Wind temple I think is in quite a weird spot now but maybe there is some use for them

Sure Teclis can autocast but I dont see him being worse than Morathi/Nagash/Kroak etc in terms of what he can do and he is still fragile and expensive... without the Sentinels block to deal out damage Im not sure how well Teclis builds are going to work. Maybe we will see him with a bunch of melee units which could be a nice mix up from the old sentinel build (and that was tbh quite uninteractive and easy to see why people had an issue with)

Complaining about LRL is a part time job for this user, you won't convince them. 

[Tango Trooper]

I've checked my Army Roster and I still believe Stoneguard outperform Wardens. The only area in which Wardens are better is the 3inch reach compared to 1inch reach. If you are fishing for Mortal Wounds then both are comparable as both require a spell buff, yet, stoneguard don't risk unit loss from a miscast.

Furthermore, I would have preferred to keep double damage on a 6 with mallet to bolster Bounty Hunter and thus get treble damage on a 6. Wardens have no rend on the spears whilst Stoneguard can have 2 rend with a stonemage. Mortal wounds have no synergies with rend except against Mortal Wound saves.

I'd still prefer to kill 3 wounds/models with treble damage inflicted over 1 wound per character with a Mortal wound. In some ways the damage has been nerfed but in other ways the damage has been increased. I will have to play more games to work out if I will synergise with the Mortal wound output or not.

[lare2]

20 hours ago, lare2 said:

Anyone got access to a snazzy collection of the new rules in pdf format? As in, has anyone went to the effort of screenshotting man reads book and combining them?

Got it