AoS 3 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[KrispyXIV]

2 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

this warcry set, if discounted, could be a good place for starting dok players 

That's what, msrp $115 or something?  Certainly, it's a great pair of "core" units.

[Clan's Cynic]

11 hours ago, KrispyXIV said:

That's what, msrp $115 or something?  Certainly, it's a great pair of "core" units.

The box is $80 going by the UK prices revealed today.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Clan's Cynic

[KrispyXIV]

2 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

The box is $80 going by the UK prices revealed today.

Which is fantastic for new players.  Sadly, not so much for me as I already have like... 50 snek. 

[Underworld40k]

Not to start with the sky is falling that sometimes happens with new books but i am a little flummoxed with the new battle tome announcement as this 1 is barley a year old. Cant imagine what they are going to change to justify it in terms of rules/abilties and it has killed my (largely already low) painting drive (i am not keen on paiting a load of WE/SoS/Khinari, especially the khinari, if they turn out to be lame ducks in the new book). It feels like its either going to be very minor beyond the 3rd edition trappings (path to glory/battle tactic/battalions/subfactions) or going to be a substantial rework. I am optimistic we will get a good rework and remain strong like ironjawz (hopefully not getting the bonespliterz business)

Genuinely hope Morathi gets a command ability change so its not bonkers and then Blood sisters can be priced back down to something not so high and be taken as the excellent skirmishing unit and objective cappers i have always felt they are without being a 15 strong block of shooting death in an obstinately melee army. 

Would like to see Khinari get a getter role than being just cheapish throw away deep strikes/cappers and the WE/SoS to be given more distinct roles with a bit more individual oomph, maybe our new hero will help with this.

Dont feel we need a change to the Blood sisters. Expecting a reduction in our spells and prayers but maybe the SQ can find a decent blade of khaine and get get dance of doom on the cauldron for her own weapons?

Maybe doomfire warlocks will be useful? Owning 10 i have always found that i would rather have khinari or more recently the shadow stalkers, for objective capping/deep strike threats and any thing else if  wanted chopping ability. 

 

[Geoffreyvt]

On 2/6/2022 at 10:00 PM, Chumphammer said:

this warcry set, if discounted, could be a good place for starting dok players 

That's what I am waiting for. This box, combined with the nighthaunt dual box and start collecting will give a great start to the army I think. 

Wait and see the prices.. 

[KrispyXIV]

On 2/7/2022 at 11:34 AM, Underworld40k said:

Maybe doomfire warlocks will be useful? Owning 10 i have always found that i would rather have khinari or more recently the shadow stalkers, for objective capping/deep strike threats and any thing else if  wanted chopping ability. 

 

We can hope on the Doomfires - I've been trying to run them recently (as I like some models I printed as alternates for them), and have found them to be just slightly... off for their cost.  I feel like they're one "thing" away from being a solid choice - let them be battleline, make them cheaper, or remove their limitation that prevents them from casting from our spell lore and I think they're a solid and useful unit. 

Luckily, they're in the "duel" box and if the slayers/IDK box is an indication, that means a significant scroll update. 

I have similar hopes for the Khinerai - they're not a bad or non-useful unit, but they're MOSTLY useful just for being able to deep strike and exist on top of an objective.  Their 6+ save and 1W each means they die to even a "swift adjacent" breeze, and I'd love to see them improved so that more than a minimum unit to cap objectives would be useful.  Heartrenders in particular probably need a bit more - where Lifetakers have enough offense that our buffs can at least make them an interesting cruise Missile, the Heartrenders simply don't DO anything with their attacks.  A second shot would go a long way.  A second wound and an extra attack with a modest cost increase (and maybe battle line?  I want so bad to do a harpy army...) would be amazing imo...

The dual box can't get here soon enough. 

[Underworld40k]

19 hours ago, KrispyXIV said:

We can hope on the Doomfires - I've been trying to run them recently (as I like some models I printed as alternates for them), and have found them to be just slightly... off for their cost.  I feel like they're one "thing" away from being a solid choice - let them be battleline, make them cheaper, or remove their limitation that prevents them from casting from our spell lore and I think they're a solid and useful unit. 

Luckily, they're in the "duel" box and if the slayers/IDK box is an indication, that means a significant scroll update. 

I have similar hopes for the Khinerai - they're not a bad or non-useful unit, but they're MOSTLY useful just for being able to deep strike and exist on top of an objective.  Their 6+ save and 1W each means they die to even a "swift adjacent" breeze, and I'd love to see them improved so that more than a minimum unit to cap objectives would be useful.  Heartrenders in particular probably need a bit more - where Lifetakers have enough offense that our buffs can at least make them an interesting cruise Missile, the Heartrenders simply don't DO anything with their attacks.  A second shot would go a long way.  A second wound and an extra attack with a modest cost increase (and maybe battle line?  I want so bad to do a harpy army...) would be amazing imo...

Personally i think doomfire warlocks just don't do enough of 1 thing well. They are to expensive to be cheap cappers/screens, they dont have enough offensive output to really play the harassing role and the magic i unreliable and limited, especially given that it wants you to run them in blocks of 10 to maximise MW output.

Its interesting because i have always found the Heartpiercers to be the more reliable option - they can drop down and actually chuck spears and then maybe even move after doing so. Life takers are on 40m bases and just never have the attacks or numbers i want to have (and if they deep strike you are looking for that 9" charge of course...) a 3/4/-/1 profile needs witchbrew and mindrazor to really make me think it would achieve anything given that there are only 2 attacks per model.

Mayne the new subfaction rules will open up list building though given how its been done for Warclans and stormcast- Khelt Narr getting Khinari as battleline would be cool.

[KrispyXIV]

23 minutes ago, Underworld40k said:

Mayne the new subfaction rules will open up list building though given how its been done for Warclans and stormcast- Khelt Narr getting Khinari as battleline would be cool.

I'm just looking forward to being able to take Master of Magic and have a reroll for casting the Blood Snake.  I'm super enamored with the model, and it's just too unreliable to justify its huge cost as it stands.  If I had a reasonable chance of having it in play once or twice a game, it might be worth it (assuming it remains similar).

[Chumphammer]

So box set out soon (Probably end of Month) So I predict DOK new book in May. Fluff for box is basically Nagash is in a huff Morathi took souls and gave them to the IDK, as they are "Rightfully" his.... So sent forces to Har Kuron

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/07/find-out-why-nagash-is-absolutely-furious-yet-again-in-arena-of-shades/

Sone nice art:

[Rebluff]

On 2/9/2022 at 11:27 AM, Underworld40k said:

Personally i think doomfire warlocks just don't do enough of 1 thing well. They are to expensive to be cheap cappers/screens, they dont have enough offensive output to really play the harassing role and the magic i unreliable and limited, especially given that it wants you to run them in blocks of 10 to maximise MW output.

Its interesting because i have always found the Heartpiercers to be the more reliable option - they can drop down and actually chuck spears and then maybe even move after doing so. Life takers are on 40m bases and just never have the attacks or numbers i want to have (and if they deep strike you are looking for that 9" charge of course...) a 3/4/-/1 profile needs witchbrew and mindrazor to really make me think it would achieve anything given that there are only 2 attacks per model.

Mayne the new subfaction rules will open up list building though given how its been done for Warclans and stormcast- Khelt Narr getting Khinari as battleline would be cool.

I think when we talk about small changes to units that need to be made, it's ignoring the elephant in the room.

The book doesn't really work. At least competitively.

People originally thought that their would be multiple build options competitively for DoK when the book dropped. I don't know why they thought that considering the book made every melee unit mathematically worse except Morathi but they did. It has since become crystal clear that Morathi+15 BloodStalkers is the be all, end all of the book.

Even after months of creep, Morathi+ 15 BloodStalkers is still seeing quite a lot of competitive success. So much so that their interaction is definitely going to get hammered into the ground . Where this creates a problem is that, once you remove those units, the rest of the army just isn't very good. It's essentially just a slower Slaanesh.

 Morathi and 15 blood stalkers, the cheapest you can make a complete army is 1560pts.  I would argue that the book is so lopsided that that 1560pts is stronger than ANY 2000pt list you could put together that forgoes Morathi and forgoes Bloodstalkers.

What this comes down to is that the first change any Battletome writer is going to make to the book is a massive off the bat nerf(i.e straight up removing Morathi's command ability). One that is absolutely necessary, but one that will cripple the army if not compensated for. Without Morathi+15 Bloodstalkers, several fundamental changes need to be made.

The subfaction rules are honestly fairly irrelevant. Hagg Narr and khalebron are strong enough and the 4 no one uses are so terrible that they'd need bottom up rewrites to even have a chance.

Relics, Command Traits, Spells, and Prayers are fine. The relics are bad but generically bad so its fine and Mindrazor, Curse, and Blessing of Khaine exist. Don't really need anything else. Mirror Dance is decent utility.

Where we need big changes is in the warscrolls. The most important one is the Hag Queen. Witchbrew, as it currently exists, is too unreliable to be actually useful. Having a 5+ roll determine whether or not you lose half your army to battleshock first round is abysmal. I would make it automatically work, just change it to immune to battleshock and reroll wound rolls of 1. I would also drop the Hag 5 Points.

Bloodsisters need their Crystal Gaze ability to trigger at the end of their activation, rather than the end of the combat phase. It's already not a very good ability anymore, why make it worse? I also feel like they could move to a 4+ Save.

Related to that, the Ironscale needs a complete rewrite. The one part of her whole warscroll that makes sense is the Command Ability. First, just make her spell shrug a 2 or 3+. She could probably be completely immune to spells and it would be fine but at least let the ability be useful. Having it be a 5+ means it might as well not exist. Give her the 4+ sv and the end of activation mortal wound as well. Also, instead of the goofy '+1 attack if you ****** up your activation order' thing, just let her pick a Melusai unit wholly within 12" and give them an additional point of rend. Also drop her 5 points.

 Aelves and SoS are just overpriced. Drop witch Aelves 10 and SoS 15 and start from there.

The Cauldrons just need a way to regen without sacrificing a book prayer. I would change 'touch of death' to 'Bloodletting: Prayer 3+ Target 1 enemy unit within 12" of this model, deal D3 MW, heal for that many wounds. Also, a 20pt drop for both.

Bloodstalkers(with no Morathi combo) are fine, Shadowstalkers are fine, Morgwraeth and regular slaughter queens are unsalvageable.

Khinerai: Both units need 2 wounds and both units need more offensive push. Figure you shoot for 1.5 or less the current price on them. Give lifetakers +1 attack. For heartrenders give them an extra attack in shooting AND melee. I would also like both of their reactive moves to work when targeted for a shooting attack. That way, they exist as more than a 'deepstrike onto an objective, hope for the best' unit.

Bloodwrack Viper is too expensive, Bladewind is beyond redemption, Heart of Fury is about 10pts too expensive, ALSO if it gets banished by an enemy priest, it should give all DoK units currently within 12" +1 attack. If it's going to have primarily defensive ability that's really difficult to actually use defensively, it should at least punish them a little bit for getting rid of it.

 

[Chumphammer]

Anyone else heading to the Seattle Open Series?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/11/the-us-open-series-returns-bigger-better-and-headed-out-west/#Seattle

Ill be there with non Morathi

[Dave8210]

Can anyone offer thoughts on a Path to Glory army? We are starting at 600 points. 
my initial plan is basically a Medusa, Ironscale and then 2 units of shooty snakes for 595 points. 
I’ve only got a couple of days to build and paint these up, is it a good start to a campaign? I fear I’m short on bodies. I’m not sure of the opposition as I don’t know the group I’m playing with too well. Although I do believe one will be Lumineth and one Mortal Slaanesh. 

[Chumphammer]

On 3/16/2022 at 4:23 AM, Dave8210 said:

Can anyone offer thoughts on a Path to Glory army? We are starting at 600 points. 
my initial plan is basically a Medusa, Ironscale and then 2 units of shooty snakes for 595 points. 
I’ve only got a couple of days to build and paint these up, is it a good start to a campaign? I fear I’m short on bodies. I’m not sure of the opposition as I don’t know the group I’m playing with too well. Although I do believe one will be Lumineth and one Mortal Slaanesh. 

Tbh 1 hero in 600pts is enough, doubt you need 2. PTG is more about the different scenarios where holding an obj isnt always the thing

On another note, this is some of the 1st info of the new hero 

[Chumphammer]

New dok hero

100pts

M6, 6w, 5+ B8

3" 4 x 3+ 4+ -1 1

1" 2 x 3+ 4+ -1 1

6" pile in 

12" wholly within wound changes daggers and whips to 3+ to wound and rend 1

Killing stroke ability from earlier

she's ok but nothing worth changing for unless you do a draichi faction that's +2 rend on charge, -3 w MR, but then you just die like Nats to a lighter and aerosol

Other scrolls 

 

Bucklers workers shooting now

 

Khinari don't need a 4+ after shooting to move, just can move for free 6"

 

Doomfires can have spell from book

Edited April 2, 2022 by Chumphammer

[Mcprowlington]

6 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

Bucklers workers shooting now

Do bucklers still just give +1 or do they increase our save to 5 now?

 

Any noticeable witch/sos changes? 

[Lucentia]

1 hour ago, Mcprowlington said:

Do bucklers still just give +1 or do they increase our save to 5 now?

 

Any noticeable witch/sos changes? 

Weirdly both, depending on the unit: Heartrenders just get a flat 5+ save (but lose the mortal wound reflect entirely) whilst Sisters of Slaughter get +1 to all save rolls and reflect mortals versus melee attacks.

Other than bucklers working vs shooting attacks the SoS warscoll is identical.  No witch aelf scroll in the box.  You'd think after two books of being consistently overlooked they'd have wanted to do something with Doomfire Warlocks, but they're the same as before as well.

I guess it's worth noting that the Gladiatrix buff is not +1 to wound, but directly changes the To Wound profile to 3+, so it will stack with any other sources of +1 to wound if any are available.

[Eternalis]

Did the SoS or Khinerai see a price change in this box? I won't play SoS for their current price, even with the new hero.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Eternalis

[Lucentia]

Points costs for old units are all the same I think, but sometimes they change between the dual boxes and the actual book releases, so I wouldn't hold that as gospel.

[KrispyXIV]

10 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

Doomfires can have spell from book

I'd be really happy about this, personally.  +1 to cast some of out harder to cast spells without spending an artefact isn't nothing. 

[Chumphammer]

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Chumphammer

[Rebluff]

1 hour ago, Chumphammer said:

 

So the obvious reason for not including witches or lifetakers is to not confuse the narrative of the box.

My conspiracy theory is that they weren't included because they saw much more significant changes than the other two.

The high gladiatrix is actually an extremely good character. That aura ability is absurdly pushed. The problem is, it's solving a problem we don't have. Aelves damage output is fine. It's every other aspect of our melee that's not very good.

Aelves are among the least durable 100+ point troop in the game(even with Haggnarr and Cauldron). That 100+ point pricetag also means you can't rely on numbers to make sure at least some of them make it into the fight. So into shooting armies or melee armies that are faster than they(which is a lot of armies), there's really nothing they can do. They're not fast enough going first to charge anything but a screen and going second they'll get mopped by almost anything on the double turn.

Those are the problems the new book needs to fix if they want aelves to be viable option.

[Mutton]

I'm guessing most of the DoK warscrolls will receive very minor tweaks. The big changes will come from subfactions, traits, etc. Maybe some allegiance ability changes? 

I like not having to roll for shoot-n-scoot and the flat 5+ save for Heartrenders. Losing the mortal reflect is weird, since they obviously use the same bladed bucklers as everyone else, but whatever. Also surprised the warlocks didn't change, since nobody really uses them.

[Rachmani]

The biggest Change will be that Morathis Command Ability will be gone, as are all Command Abilities. That alone will change everything. From there on, it'll be all allegiance & subfactions.

[Lucentia]

I could see Orgy of Slaughter sticking around as a general faction CA, like with the Fyreslayers striking first one, double-fighting has been a part of the DoK faction from the earliest days of AoS, so I suspect it will stick around in some form at least.  But yes, I wouldn't expect Morathi to keep her CA as it is now (Though she might still have a unique CA of some kind, some of the big named characters do even in 3.0 books, Glottkin, for example.)

[KrispyXIV]

15 minutes ago, Lucentia said:

nd as a general faction CA, like with the Fyreslayers striking first one, double-fighting has been a part of the DoK faction from the earliest days of AoS, so I suspect it will stick around in some form at least.  But yes, I wouldn't expect Morathi t

My personal dream is that they'd go crazy in some other direction for Morathi's big CA - preferably, something Prayer Related since she's you know, a goddess, and granting prayers could be her thing.