AoS 3 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Rebluff]

Just now, Mutton said:

Where are you guys seeing the command traits/artifacts?

Facebook

[KrispyXIV]

Just now, Rebluff said:

How so? As far as I can tell you just have to rally first. Did I miss something in the wording?

Can only receive one Command Ability per phase, both happen in hero phase still - right? 

It's actually pretty neat in that since you can rally in opponents turn, the 4+ rally could help you weather a double turn pretty well - but going into your turn, you have to pick one or the other. 

[Rebluff]

Just now, KrispyXIV said:

Can only receive one Command Ability per phase, both happen in hero phase still - right? 

It's actually pretty neat in that since you can rally in opponents turn, the 4+ rally could help you weather a double turn pretty well - but going into your turn, you have to pick one or the other. 

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Duh. That's much worse then.

[Mutton]

5 minutes ago, Rebluff said:

Facebook

Ew, I can wait.

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, Rebluff said:

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Duh. That's much worse then.

I mean, it's worse than having a 5++ from devoted disciples.  

But DoK is also coming into this book from a 55% win rate in previous. 

Peak performance should be slightly worse than previous, with the gap between Morathi and Stalkers lists and other lists hopefully being smaller. 

The 4+ rally having conflicts in Morathi lists is a good thing, as it's a much less conflicted benefit in other lists. 

That's not necessarily a problem, ultimately. 

[Rebluff]

20 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

I mean, it's worse than having a 5++ from devoted disciples.  

But DoK is also coming into this book from a 55% win rate in previous. 

Peak performance should be slightly worse than previous, with the gap between Morathi and Stalkers lists and other lists hopefully being smaller. 

The 4+ rally having conflicts in Morathi lists is a good thing, as it's a much less conflicted benefit in other lists. 

That's not necessarily a problem, ultimately. 

I don't necessarily have a problem with the Morathi+Bowsnakes build being nerfed, so I guess it's fine.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Rebluff

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, Rebluff said:

I don't necessarily have a problem with the Morathi+Bowsnakes build being nerfed, especially relative to the rest of the battletime. The problem is the DoK lists that didn't have those were at like...16% winrate across all 6 games that got played this edition by DoK without Morathi-Bowsnakes?

It's hard to say - I think Morathi-Khaine and Snakes saw almost all the games at most levels of competitive play.  

That said, I know that non-Morathi lists never really struggled for me.  They still felt pretty strong vs most other armies. 

And I think other folks were successful with them.

My biggest issue was that Morathi and snakea were just superior... which was a feelsbad for me. 

[Rebluff]

8 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

It's hard to say - I think Morathi-Khaine and Snakes saw almost all the games at most levels of competitive play.  

That said, I know that non-Morathi lists never really struggled for me.  They still felt pretty strong vs most other armies. 

And I think other folks were successful with them.

My biggest issue was that Morathi and snakea were just superior... which was a feelsbad for me. 

Do you remember where you saw the non-Morathi Bowsnake lists being successful? I've followed the tournament scene on and off since the book dropped and the only time I remember seeing competitive DoK lists without Morathi's Angels^tm were theorycrafts from when the book first dropped. I'd be really interested in reading up on what the off meta people were doing.

I know locally people were bringing other stuff and sometimes getting 3-0s or 2-1s but you could 3-0 a locals with 0 Depravity Slaanesh if had some good luck and your opponents had 1 too many lunch break Margaritas.

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Rebluff

[KrispyXIV]

Just now, Rebluff said:

Do you remember where you saw the non-Morathi Bowsnake lists being successful? I've followed the tournament scene on and off since the book dropped and the only time I remember seeing competitive DoK lists without Morathi's Angels^tm were theorycrafts from when the book first dropped.

I know locally people were bringing other stuff and sometimes getting 3-0s or 2-1s but you could 3-0 a locals with 0 Depravity Slaanesh if had some good luck and your opponents had 1 too many lunch break Margaritas.

 

I think Chumphammer from here did well in at least one or two events with a four avatar (2x cauldrons, 2x avatars) build?

I tried something similar for a few games and it was pretty darned effective. 

[Yondaime]

22 minutes ago, Rebluff said:

I don't necessarily have a problem with the Morathi+Bowsnakes build being nerfed, so I guess it's fine.

>it’s the army of crazy maniacs

>lorewise they have insane skill in cqc 

>workship the literal god of homocide

Strongest list: shooty snakes 

 

yeah I have a problem with that

 

[Gokken]

so wait your bloodrites only works in your turn?

 

Also battalions are they a thing :D?

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Gokken

[KrispyXIV]

4 minutes ago, Gokken said:

so wait your bloodrites only works in your turn?

 

Also battalions are they a thing :D?

 

Bonuses to Blood Rites from Witchbrew, Melusai Kin are only on your turn. 

Blood rites in general are all the time. 

[Nasrod]

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but while most Temples are the same, Zainthar Kai says

 

"Each time a model in a friendly Zainthar Kai Melusai unit is slain, that model can fight before it is removed from play."

 

This being an always on static effect that does not have the stipulation of "Choose a unit that has not already fought" seems absolutely mental to me. 

Turned to Crystal also got a huge glow up:

"After this unit has fought for the first time in a phase and all its attacks have been resolved, you can pick 1 enemy unit within 3" of this unit. Roll 1 dice for each model in this unit. For each 2+, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound."

At 140 points and battle line in Zainthar... I have no complaints from this book. It took 4 years but we can finally run Morathi as General with Battleline Melusai!

[KrispyXIV]

9 minutes ago, Nasrod said:

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but while most Temples are the same, Zainthar Kai says

 

"Each time a model in a friendly Zainthar Kai Melusai unit is slain, that model can fight before it is removed from play."

 

This being an always on static effect that does not have the stipulation of "Choose a unit that has not already fought" seems absolutely mental to me. 

Turned to Crystal also got a huge glow up:

"After this unit has fought for the first time in a phase and all its attacks have been resolved, you can pick 1 enemy unit within 3" of this unit. Roll 1 dice for each model in this unit. For each 2+, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound."

At 140 points and battle line in Zainthar... I have no complaints from this book. It took 4 years but we can finally run Morathi as General with Battleline Melusai!

So wait... how do those interact?

[Nasrod]

Just now, KrispyXIV said:

So wait... how do those interact?

They don't, I imagine; Crystal Touch says when the unit makes its first attack. The Zainthar Kai ability is "Slain models may fight when they are removed." Since Crystal touch specifies "when the unit fights", I would say that is not eligible to be the same as "slain models."

That said, Touch triggering at end of attacks again instead of at the end of the combat phase is huge. 

[Morathi is my Goddess]

After its attacks now and on a 2+ just seems bonkers. Thats a true hammer.

[Jaskier]

Yep. Blood Sisters are gonna wreck face. It's gonna be hard to choose between Khelt Nar (repositioning with retreat and charge is always great) and Zanthar Kai (automatically fighting when they die is awesome) for a snake themed list. 

[Nasrod]

Stormcast are allies again. 

The lore has an explanation which I will not spoil. 

Heart of Fury is now roll a D6; 1 through 5, you minus 1 for incoming damage wholly within 12. On a 6, it also adds an extra attack to your units and fades away at end of turn.

The Vyper Endless spell has a cool gimmick that lets it Stomp or Destroy Terrain, as does the Avatar of Khaine, but they are explicitly not monsters for the purpose of categorization. 

That is all from me as I have to sleep; by and large the book is very very similar to the old book. But the new stuff we got is silly. 

[Nasrod]

Vyperic Guard* (Extra enhancement)

Morathi*

Ironscale* (Crown of Woe; Prevents Inspiring Presence in a 9" bubble around her; if she slays any model the bubble grows to 15" permanently) 

Hag Queen (Khainite Pendant; 1/game guaranteed prayer, Trait: Zealous Orator, allows Rally commands from this General to succeed on 4+ instead of 6+, absolutely insane; prayer Sacrament of Blood, add 1 to the Blood Rites table, stacks with her sippy cup ability)

Blood Stalkers x 15*

Blood Sisters x 5*

Blood Sisters x 5*

Khinerai Heartrender x 5

Khinerai Heartrender x 5

Heart of Fury 

1950/2000

I lied. Too excited to sleep, lol. 

Morathi + 15 Bow snakes is obnoxious but good for a reason. With the new Rally 4+ trait it is going to become far more obnoxious...

The Hag Queen artifact guarantees your Heart of Fury goes out, or guarantees the Sacrament of Blood goes out. On turn 2 this means she is buffing something of her choice to be on Blood Rites 4, gaining the bonus to hit and wound. 

There is a tactic that involves having 2 Khinerai units make their bonus move in the same turn. 180 points to guarantee an on demand tactic score on turn 2 or 3 is fantastic. The fact they fly and move 14" afterwards to harass objectives is just straight bonus. 

The heroes have some absurd traits and artifacts that provide fantastic support to the army.

The 5 man Blood Sister units can become 6 attacks each hitting on 2s wounding on 2s rending 2 damage 2 with the ability to advance and charge if the Melusai has killed a model; if you roll a 6 on Heart of Fury, which is admittedly magical Christmas land, they become 7 attacks. If you took the Ironscale exclusive artifact, once per game it can be popped for another attack bonus to become 8 attacks each. And after they fight, you average 5 mortal wounds if the target is still alive thanks to Turn to Crystal. 

This isn't practical by any means, but the sheer fact you can threaten this with a 140 point unit that moves 8 and advances and charges...then fights again even if something survives and fights back? 

This is going to be a ton of fun.

EDIT

Shadowstalkers are a base 4+ save now and battleline in Khailebron. Cauldron making these a 3+armor save/6+ ward that teleports in place of movement? No way this won't make waves. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Nasrod
Found more silliness

[Jaskier]

Something I didn't see in the leaks is that the Slaughter Queen (both versions) has a prayer that lets her fight first, and it's answered on a 3+...so a 2+ if she's on a Cauldron. That's nuts! 

[mojojojo101]

13 hours ago, Yondaime said:

>it’s the army of crazy maniacs

>lorewise they have insane skill in cqc 

>workship the literal god of homocide

Strongest list: shooty snakes 

 

yeah I have a problem with that

 

The problem with the melee options is getting them to where they need to be, if they get their pretty much all our options will tear through absolutely anything they hit.

The problem is actually getting them there, which at first glance, this book doesn't really do anything to fix.

[Nasrod]

I strongly disagree with the Goonhammer breakdown. They seem to have completely  missed the change to Blood Sisters' "Turned to Crystal," implying it still triggers at the end of the combat phase. That is the case for the heroes still, so maybe they assumed it was the same due to being the same ability name. 

Throwing weight behind Elves and dismissing the snakes with a single "Eh probably bad" comment in a world where they acknowledge Zainthar as a strong faction is also weird to me. 

[KrispyXIV]

4 minutes ago, Nasrod said:

I strongly disagree with the Goonhammer breakdown. They seem to have completely  missed the change to Blood Sisters' "Turned to Crystal," implying it still triggers at the end of the combat phase. That is the case for the heroes still, so maybe they assumed it was the same due to being the same ability name. 

Throwing weight behind Elves and dismissing the snakes with a single "Eh probably bad" comment in a world where they acknowledge Zainthar as a strong faction is also weird to me. 

Yep, looks like they just didn't read it.

Blood Sisters look silly good.  The fact that it looks like Ironscales lost the 2d6 run part of their 'run and charge' ability is massively good for everyone else, because their ability to just 'nope, DELETED' more or less anything 12 wounds or under (in a 15 block) is going to be toxic as hell - at least their typical threat is 'only' 14+charge with an ironscale...

[Rebluff]

So, real quick: We can all agree that the intent of the Morathi rule change is probably NOT to make it so it's super easy to kill her in one turn, correct? (sidebar: The direct mechanism of allocation vs. negation is confusing and based on an interaction between the Slain Models subsection and the Ward Save subsection. My read of it is that the 'can only allocate 3 wounds' rule is the only part of that rule that actually has an effect and the rest is superfluous leftover from before ward saves and wound allocation had a unified timing. Also, technically, if a wound can't be negated it can still be allocated to a unit that's been destroyed by RAW. Not sure what gameplay implications that might have but it's pretty funny.)

If the FAQ comes out and it turns out they DID mean for Morathi to be killed in one turn every game, that makes her DoA right? We're not paying 680pts for a unit with the defensive profile of a Hag Cauldron that can't be healed, right?

[KrispyXIV]

3 minutes ago, Rebluff said:

So, real quick: We can all agree that the intent of the Morathi rule change is probably NOT to make it so it's super easy to kill her in one turn, correct? (sidebar: The direct mechanism of allocation vs. negation is confusing and based on an interaction between the Slain Models subsection and the Ward Save subsection. My read of it is that the 'can only allocate 3 wounds' rule is the only part of that rule that actually has an effect and the rest is superfluous leftover from before ward saves and wound allocation had a unified timing. Also, technically, if a wound can't be negated it can still be allocated to a unit that's been destroyed by RAW. Not sure what gameplay implications that might have but it's pretty funny.)

If the FAQ comes out and it turns out they DID mean for Morathi to be killed in one turn every game, that makes her DoA right? We're not paying 680pts for a unit with the defensive profile of a Hag Cauldron that can't be healed, right?

That's more or less what the consensus in my local club is.  The first line makes the rest meaningless, since any case that would result in the allocation of more than 3 wounds would violate the first line (which is, as of currently, clearly rules text and not itself fluff).  

And if 12 wounds to Moraithi-Khaine kills her, in competitive play she's DOA due to the ability of a lot of scary armies being able to drop 12-15 mortals on her reliably via Longstrikes, Sentinels, dragon breath etc.  Essentially, its unlikely you can dodge some matchup that just auto-kills her and reduces your army by a third (and takes core interactions with it).  

Essentially, it needs FAQ'd and if Morathi-Khaine is intended to be a weak point, her cost needs to be dialed back to account for it.