AoS3 - Kruleboyz Discussion

[NauticalSoup]

Ally pool isn't really worth anything since taking allies is so rarely optimal. It's mostly evidence of how bad the state of KB is atm  

[That Guy]

On 3/10/2022 at 1:00 PM, NCFCpaul said:

I've been using Kragnos in mine, which gives the option of 3D6 charge making the Gutrippaz more effective. 

Anyone else have thoughts about Kragnos or ways to utilise him effectively? 

 

Carl from season of war, who uses him competitively once said: “use him as a reaction unit, he is far more effective if you hold him back first and than keep an explosive charge as a threat”. With mightiest is rightiest, once he goes in he’ll take what he aims for and you’ll likely get any charge off him. It’s good to screen him.

[Ganigumo]

On 4/6/2022 at 2:43 PM, Skreech Verminking said:

Oh your talking about a different kind of stabbas, sorry dude, I really thought you meant the grot stabbas😅

 

If you say so.

the last few gloomspite armies I’ve seen have been either going all out trogs/squigs or was the min. Required battleline in stabbas/shootas, while supported by 2-4Loonbosses on manglers.

as for Kruelboyz, I can’t say much, I didn’t really follow them at all.

and I do agree stabbas are brilliant for holding objective, yet they cost almost as much as taking 20 hobbgrots in a unit.

you tell me if that is worth throwing your ally pool away for.

personally I don’t really know

Many competitive lists try to fit into battle regiment, and most of the few kruleboyz lists that were doing well were doing that. There isn't that much you'd be spending your ally points on either, all you really get from Gitz  is chaff, or maybe a fungoid to farm a few CP.

IIRC the competitive lists that were doing well were something like:
Allegiance: Kruleboyz
- Warclan: Big Yellers
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:
Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)*
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*
20 x Gutrippaz (360)*
- Reinforced x 1
9 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (360)*
- Reinforced x 2
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)*
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Stabbas (150)*
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields

Rogue Idol (430)*
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1960 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
Drops: 1

Or some variation of that (I couldn't find a direct reference to the lists). 
The list minimizes drops and takes some melee punch in the rogue idol and gutrippaz so you can have one strong combat phase for your kruleboyz waaagh!

The reason stabbas were used was because there were points for them, and 20x hobgrots take up a reinforcement point, which the list couldn't spare, and 2x10 hobgrots didn't fit into battle regiment. There's value in your throwaway screen having 20 wounds too, since your opponent will often have to actually commit something substantial to clear it.

So its not that grots are a must-take or strong unit, they just fit a very specific niche when you're trying to fit a list into battle regiment and you bump into the reinforcement point limit. The only alternative would be 10x gutrippaz or something which cover less space for screening are less bodies on objectives and are arguably less durable for more points.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Ganigumo

[Arzalyn]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

The reason stabbas were used was because there were points for them, and 20x hobgrots take up a reinforcement point, which the list couldn't spare, and 2x10 hobgrots didn't fit into battle regiment. There's value in your throwaway screen having 20 wounds too, since your opponent will often have to actually commit something substantial to clear it.

Why wouldn't 2x10 hobgrtoz fit in the battle regiment? The Gutrippaz and Boltboyz just use 3 slots and the regiment allow 5.

The rogue idol is something that was seldom discussed around here, but really is an interesting piece for the army (non-hero monster, +1 to cast for our spell lore, should die a little less easy than most of our units).

[Ganigumo]

15 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

Why wouldn't 2x10 hobgrtoz fit in the battle regiment? The Gutrippaz and Boltboyz just use 3 slots and the regiment allow 5.

The rogue idol is something that was seldom discussed around here, but really is an interesting piece for the army (non-hero monster, +1 to cast for our spell lore, should die a little less easy than most of our units).

Yeah I guess it could fit in the list I posted. I couldn't find the actual lists so I was trying to recreate them from memory.

[That Guy]

18 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Many competitive lists try to fit into battle regiment, and most of the few kruleboyz lists that were doing well were doing that. There isn't that much you'd be spending your ally points on either, all you really get from Gitz  is chaff, or maybe a fungoid to farm a few CP.

IIRC the competitive lists that were doing well were something like:
Allegiance: Kruleboyz
- Warclan: Big Yellers
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:
Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)*
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*
20 x Gutrippaz (360)*
- Reinforced x 1
9 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (360)*
- Reinforced x 2
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)*
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Stabbas (150)*
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields

Rogue Idol (430)*
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1960 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
Drops: 1

Or some variation of that (I couldn't find a direct reference to the lists). 
The list minimizes drops and takes some melee punch in the rogue idol and gutrippaz so you can have one strong combat phase for your kruleboyz waaagh!

The reason stabbas were used was because there were points for them, and 20x hobgrots take up a reinforcement point, which the list couldn't spare, and 2x10 hobgrots didn't fit into battle regiment. There's value in your throwaway screen having 20 wounds too, since your opponent will often have to actually commit something substantial to clear it.

So its not that grots are a must-take or strong unit, they just fit a very specific niche when you're trying to fit a list into battle regiment and you bump into the reinforcement point limit. The only alternative would be 10x gutrippaz or something which cover less space for screening are less bodies on objectives and are arguably less durable for more points.

 I like this list, but what I don't like is the 1 shaman. In this case you'll just always lack in 1 department. Will you boost your gutrippaz or will you boost your man-skewers. When on the defense this will work well, but when you go on the offensive you have to decide where the sludgeraker beast goes and where the shaman goes. Do you double up with the beast and shaman on a unit? Do you let the gutrippaz enjoy the sludgeraker aura, while you potion the boltboyz? You are forced to make choices in this list. It could work don't get me wrong, but you have to play smart upon already having to play smart. Mork is cunning, but also brutal. With this you just need to be super cunning. Simple ork brain doesn't understand. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by That Guy

[Rachmani]

I‘ve so far have had good results with keeping the sludgeraker beast close to Gutrippaz and the shaman(s) with the bolt boys. As both effects don‘t multiply each other it’s not necessary to stack them. And should the bolt boys be in range of the sludgeraker it’s a nice bonus anyway.

I do however mostly play 1500 point games these days, so the question whether to bring another shaman never arises. The whole army seems to perform quite a bit better at that scale anyway. Though I‘m not sure why. Maybe it’s the mindset of people playing at that point range. Maybe it’s because you just need 2 battlelines instead of 3.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Rachmani

[Rachmani]

Okay guys, 

I got a question for y'all.

Killabosses, what's your status with them? Which ones do you actually use & why? What load out has proven to be worth it? Positive or negative surprises?

Give me what you've got!

[NauticalSoup]

13 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Okay guys, 

I got a question for y'all.

Killabosses, what's your status with them? Which ones do you actually use & why? What load out has proven to be worth it? Positive or negative surprises?

Give me what you've got!

Mighty expensive for a unit that does nothing. I don't think... any of them are ever worth using? For some reason only the vulcha gets a CA benefit, which is unfortunate because monster leaders are mostly used because of the monster, and the sludgeraker exists. 

 

[zombiepiratexxx]

They're very good for making sure that you low-ass bravery troops don't evaporate as soon as they take even a single casualty. 

[NauticalSoup]

3 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

They're very good for making sure that you low-ass bravery troops don't evaporate as soon as they take even a single casualty. 

Better to spend the points on more of said troops and keep a CP back if you actually have a unit big enough to be worth saving.

There's a reason it's extremely rare to see any of the three included in lists. It's a very high price to pay for less than battleshock immunity in a small bubble.

[Arzalyn]

15 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Okay guys, 

I got a question for y'all.

Killabosses, what's your status with them? Which ones do you actually use & why? What load out has proven to be worth it? Positive or negative surprises?

Give me what you've got!

Of them all, I like using the Gnashtooth one in list some times. The 10" move and 3+ save make him a pretty good mobile with a good enough damage to hold some units for a turn or capture a objective not well guarded. If you use a breaka-boss, the gnashtooth boss can be a good substitute if you need more mobility and is ok with doing less damage. If he was 9 wounds I would be using him much more than I do, but the 10 wounds and the extra drop sucks in those matches that you really need to decide if you go first or not.

[Ganigumo]

I think killabosses would be more popular if gutrippaz were cheaper/better.
Hobgrots are just chaff, seems a waste unless you're running big units for some reason.

Boltboyz evaporate if anything touches them, and generally you'll use the CP for inspiring presence since even losing 1 is a big deal.

Its useful on big units of gutrippaz, where they'll take a bunch of wounds in the combat phase and losing 1 isn't a big deal.

So they're probably worth it in gutrippa heavy builds, which probably won't be popular until they're like ~160 points.
I think the vulture variant has some play regardless though, its pretty cheap for its weight class I think.

If you're playing a gutrippa heavy build anyways Its probably worth it to bring one.

[NauticalSoup]

They're one warscroll ability away from being useful. They need to do something to amplify the army's strength (venom?) and not just somewhat mitigate a weakness that the core rulebook already provides a solution for.

[Rachmani]

I agree. They need something. Something sneaky, preferably. Personally I'd like something that dampens powerful heroes for a turn. Not neuters but dampens their impact. Like if they were not powerful enough to engage with Stormcasts in open combat - but could get the upper hand through deceit.

[Ganigumo]

Agreed, its cases like this where it feels like just axing warscroll command abilities across the board was a bad design direction.

[Rachmani]

I think that axing warscroll *command* abilities was a good idea. But warscroll abilities in general... add a quite a lot of depth.

[NauticalSoup]

The problem is that so many leader models lost their CAs and gained... nothing in exchange. The killaboss on foot isn't the only character 3.0 has left out in the cold.

[Rachmani]

Exactly. And if they did, they certainly didn’t get a plethora of warscroll abilities. Still, two should be doable. Lord Imperatant, Arkelian King etc. show that two warscroll rules are indeed still possible.

There would have been ways to buff up Killabosses. From a 5+ Egomaniac (they ruthlessly use their kin as meatshields) to some -hit shenanigans to something more elaborate, all would have been possible.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Rachmani

[Ganigumo]

22 hours ago, Rachmani said:

I think that axing warscroll *command* abilities was a good idea. But warscroll abilities in general... add a quite a lot of depth.

Wizards cast spells, priests chant prayers, hero-monsters do damage, and the rest just get to exist I guess?
This is the problem, those non-monster non-wizard/priest heroes don't have a unique thing without command abilities.

Sure you can remedy the problem in a mechanical power level sense, by having them hand out free buffs or have an aura and pointing them appropriately, but that doesn't fix the narrative problem it creates where all the hero is doing is existing. Heroes should be active and do things, otherwise why are they heroes? In many cases the characters that hand out free buffs ARE wizards/priests because it makes more narrative sense for that to be the case.

Kruleboyz are probably the perfect example. From an internal mechanical balance standpoint the killaboss should probably have one of the poison buffing abilities, since it would balance his utility with the sludgeraker and shaman, but that makes no sense from a narrative perspective. 

A good command ability could've completely changed the meta of the army too, and make it feel better narratively, even if it was just a warscroll command on the killaboss. Since release I've felt the army was almost designed to have retreat and charge as an option somewhere, as not only does it feel "kunnin" when you use it right, but provides a way around a lot of the limitations in the rules like the gutrippa shields and shaman's poisons in a really clever way.

 

[NauticalSoup]

Unit leaders giving their own units commands may also have been a mistake. It really makes the existence of these expensive foot characters questionable since the vast majority of units in the game really don't require a commander above their own to function at 100%.

[Rachmani]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Wizards cast spells, priests chant prayers, hero-monsters do damage, and the rest just get to exist I guess?
This is the problem, those non-monster non-wizard/priest heroes don't have a unique thing without command abilities.

Sure you can remedy the problem in a mechanical power level sense, by having them hand out free buffs or have an aura and pointing them appropriately, but that doesn't fix the narrative problem it creates where all the hero is doing is existing. Heroes should be active and do things, otherwise why are they heroes? In many cases the characters that hand out free buffs ARE wizards/priests because it makes more narrative sense for that to be the case.

Kruleboyz are probably the perfect example. From an internal mechanical balance standpoint the killaboss should probably have one of the poison buffing abilities, since it would balance his utility with the sludgeraker and shaman, but that makes no sense from a narrative perspective. 

A good command ability could've completely changed the meta of the army too, and make it feel better narratively, even if it was just a warscroll command on the killaboss. Since release I've felt the army was almost designed to have retreat and charge as an option somewhere, as not only does it feel "kunnin" when you use it right, but provides a way around a lot of the limitations in the rules like the gutrippa shields and shaman's poisons in a really clever way.

 

I agree. It just doesn't have to be a command ability. The Arkelian King got his once per game "strike first" ability. Something akin to that (just kunnin instead of brute force) would have been a good choice.

[Jabbuk]

Hey guys, I'm not sure if you guys are aware, I know I wasn't but Gordrakk can be included in Kruleboyz. Here's the article: https://woehammer.com/2022/04/13/warmaster-gordrakk-part-2/

That's pretty interesting. I dunno if it'd be useful in any way.

[broche]

18 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

Hey guys, I'm not sure if you guys are aware, I know I wasn't but Gordrakk can be included in Kruleboyz. Here's the article: https://woehammer.com/2022/04/13/warmaster-gordrakk-part-2/

That's pretty interesting. I dunno if it'd be useful in any way.

Hum i'm dubious. Warmaster on Kragnos and Gordrack isn't the same wording... 

Gorddrak read:

WARMASTER: If this unit is included in an Orruk Warclans army, it is treated as a general even if it is not the model picked to be the army’s general.

 

Unless it's changed in the official FAQ later I don't think tournament are gonna allow that.

 

 

 

 

[Jabbuk]

6 hours ago, broche said:

Hum i'm dubious. Warmaster on Kragnos and Gordrack isn't the same wording... 

Gorddrak read:

WARMASTER: If this unit is included in an Orruk Warclans army, it is treated as a general even if it is not the model picked to be the army’s general.

 

Unless it's changed in the official FAQ later I don't think tournament are gonna allow that.

 

 

 

 

In the article he shows a positive response from GW regarding the question. Would that matter?

Also, when I read that statement you quoted, it works in my head I dunno if it's just because I'm not too used to the wording of these rules but it looks legit. What is the part that wouldn't make him work in Kruleboyz?