Tossed into the Mawpot! Soup Armies Thoughts and Feelings?

[Televiper11]

3 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Well, a maximum of four in total between ships and droths.

And you'll have all the time to watch the Disposessed walk over there at a gingerly pace.

I’d imagine Dispo will get their tunneling ability back or another set of mvt tricks. 

[Televiper11]

I’m still hung up on how this has to be an either-or proposition. KO can still explore the skies while they help reclaim the Karaks and then as the Khazalid Empire is rebuilt and trade resume, you can link Skyports to the Karaks to the Lodges to the Cities and create this incredible narrative of Duardin cooperation. No one is asking that the KO be grounded. This isn’t a zero sum proposition.

[Duke Eligos]

47 minutes ago, silverstu said:

As an old longbeard I love my Kharadrons, love their lore and I'm excited by the idea if them getting expanded and becoming a deeper faction. I can see the potential in Fyreslayers too , plenty of scope to do really interesting design ideas with them which I'd love to see as well [someone mentioned a short story with Fyreslayers riding giant ground sloths and wearing furs which sounds epic!]. However the pragmatic dwarf in me also notes that dwarfs as a race need more variation beyond these two nations- the classic dwarf tropes of smiths/heavily armoured warriors/warmachines/ miners /brewers/ rangers and rune weapons all could do with being brought into AoS and there's the problem. There are already what 24 factions? Seraphon, Skaven and Beastmen have had  virtually nothing so far in AoS, CoS need fresh models, Malerions faction has to arrive and I'd love Kurnothi to appear next to Sylvaneth. Add to that this rumour of a combined dwarf book - Grungni's grand alliance or Duardin Nations is persistent and our own rumour monger has all but come out and said its coming, wether we like it not its happening. On the plus side I reckon its coming soon after launch as its so mentioned, maybe 3rd battle tome after Stormcast and the new greenskins. I also think it won't just be Fyreslayers and KO -I think there will be a big release of another updated dwarf faction which will sandwich between the two. Probably all three will be available to be taken as pure armies, hopefully we will get some new lore, new artwork and possibly in the not too distant future at least the odd kit for Fyreslayers and KO. A combined book gives a place to explore all the aspects of the dwarf culture, hopefully we can benefit. I just don't see the release schedule allowing a new dwarf faction AND an substantial model updates to KO or Slayers. I'll take new models over nothing everyday of the week. 

On the subject of Ko following Grungni- they already did in Br:Belakor and they did not because he is a god, they did because, as their culture, he is a good leader. Kharadron value skill and good leadership- Grungni can offer these and gain them as allies [not blind followers]. Again I would prefer serrate books and lots of new dwarfs of varying factions but that looks highly unlikely so I'll hope for some new dwarfs in the immediate future and new KO in the longer term. 

The Kharadron didn't follow Grungni (Gromthi) in BR:Be'lakor. Recent lore blurbs hint at both unification and separation in regards to KO. 

I still think it's likely, but I think the fact that the most recent hint was followed by saying that the IDK and DoK were united in purpose (aka more united than KO and FS) means that I take it with a grain of salt. 

 

Honestly, I'm not sure that Duardin are going to show up in any significant way soon. 3rd Edition will retain a focus on SCE and Destruction for a bit, then Sylvaneth will probably be on the rise. We either get a soup tome with no impact that doesn't affect the story or we wait some more. The Kharadron battletome is still very recent and in very good shape imo. Don't see why you'd invest resources on factions when your main goal is to minimise the resources you give them by uniting them.

 

The best-case scenario is that the Grotbag Scuttlers come out alongside a KO second wave.

[Grotbag Scuttlers When]

6 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Cities Of Sigmar in my opinion is on life support. That book won’t ever get a new version. I suspect some factions within like Dispossessed to get expanded into their own battletomes eventually, but Cities will be retired. The book was a lazy rush job, the lore was fine but the rules were horrible. They took away the flavour and uniqueness the individual units had and gave them all the same stats and rules so no matter weather you took an aelf, Duardin or human, the rules were all the same. Duardin therefore lost their anti-magic banners and the allegiance abilities are worse than the Dispossessed ones from GHB (which I believe are actually still valid since they haven’t actually been replaced).

You know what, I actually like that aspect of Cities. Specialized units aside, a Dwarf doesn't fight in a MUCH different way than a Human or a Elf. I have already talked about that in this forum, but my dream for Cities is:

• 6-7, low to medium cost, mixed race Batteline. They would form your core, and really represent the whole "citizens coming together to survive" . They should be sculpted in a style that makes the units feel coese despite the physical differences.
• 3+ specialized units per race. Humans would have demigryph and witch hunters;  Duardin would have ironbreakers and flamethrowers and gyrocopters; HE would have sisters of the watch and phoenix guard, etc etc. These guys and heroes would be the one to contain the "different flavors" in the rules. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Grotbag Scuttlers When
I hate the tongue of Albion

[Barkanaut]

Or games workshop can bite the bullet and update all 1e factions so they are as fleshed out as the newer ones. I think this would be best. Too much new armies keep coming out slowing it all down just stop for two years and man up.

You cant keep making new armies forever at some point people will get sickmof it. I am sick of it I want Fyre wave 2 to make them a full army. I want ko wave 2 and ironjaws all need wave 2 the most. 

[zilberfrid]

8 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

I knows clearly a lot of people love KO, and I can see why. But let’s be frank, the whole hyper divided small factions was also a business decision. They just seem to have hit the right spot with KO, for some people. 
 

Personally, I’d like for them to commit a tad more to factions. It sucks yo get swiped aside with no warning or consolation, like they did with chorfs.

A business decision is also a decision. Taking them back is not always easy.

6 hours ago, Duke Eligos said:

The Kharadron didn't follow Grungni (Gromthi) in BR:Be'lakor. Recent lore blurbs hint at both unification and separation in regards to KO. 

I still think it's likely, but I think the fact that the most recent hint was followed by saying that the IDK and DoK were united in purpose (aka more united than KO and FS) means that I take it with a grain of salt. 

Honestly, I'm not sure that Duardin are going to show up in any significant way soon. 3rd Edition will retain a focus on SCE and Destruction for a bit, then Sylvaneth will probably be on the rise. We either get a soup tome with no impact that doesn't affect the story or we wait some more. The Kharadron battletome is still very recent and in very good shape imo. Don't see why you'd invest resources on factions when your main goal is to minimise the resources you give them by uniting them.

The best-case scenario is that the Grotbag Scuttlers come out alongside a KO second wave.

Sticking Idoneth to DoK sounds the same issue, though it has a few advantages over blending dwarves.

They are elves, we have oodles of those already.

Both like scales and fluids

Idoneth need souls, DoK do murders.

Idoneth may have been abandoned by their god, but they have not moved past that in the same way.

They both already are in beachwear.

7 hours ago, silverstu said:

As an old longbeard I love my Kharadrons, love their lore and I'm excited by the idea if them getting expanded and becoming a deeper faction. I can see the potential in Fyreslayers too , plenty of scope to do really interesting design ideas with them which I'd love to see as well [someone mentioned a short story with Fyreslayers riding giant ground sloths and wearing furs which sounds epic!]. However the pragmatic dwarf in me also notes that dwarfs as a race need more variation beyond these two nations- the classic dwarf tropes of smiths/heavily armoured warriors/warmachines/ miners /brewers/ rangers and rune weapons all could do with being brought into AoS and there's the problem. There are already what 24 factions? Seraphon, Skaven and Beastmen have had  virtually nothing so far in AoS, CoS need fresh models, Malerions faction has to arrive and I'd love Kurnothi to appear next to Sylvaneth. Add to that this rumour of a combined dwarf book - Grungni's grand alliance or Duardin Nations is persistent and our own rumour monger has all but come out and said its coming, wether we like it not its happening. On the plus side I reckon its coming soon after launch as its so mentioned, maybe 3rd battle tome after Stormcast and the new greenskins. I also think it won't just be Fyreslayers and KO -I think there will be a big release of another updated dwarf faction which will sandwich between the two. Probably all three will be available to be taken as pure armies, hopefully we will get some new lore, new artwork and possibly in the not too distant future at least the odd kit for Fyreslayers and KO. A combined book gives a place to explore all the aspects of the dwarf culture, hopefully we can benefit. I just don't see the release schedule allowing a new dwarf faction AND an substantial model updates to KO or Slayers. I'll take new models over nothing everyday of the week. 

On the subject of Ko following Grungni- they already did in Br:Belakor and they did not because he is a god, they did because, as their culture, he is a good leader. Kharadron value skill and good leadership- Grungni can offer these and gain them as allies [not blind followers]. Again I would prefer serrate books and lots of new dwarfs of varying factions but that looks highly unlikely so I'll hope for some new dwarfs in the immediate future and new KO in the longer term. 

If you smear a god over Kharadron, it'll corrupt the faction. They'd still be serving it.

There is no way to consolidate dwarves and keep the identity of Kharadron by applying a god to their forehead.

It's even bad for Fyreslayers. They spent all their zeal on Grimnir, and now that other dude shows up.

Sure, GW can rattle a bit on their keyboards to give any explanation, I won't buy it (literally).

Now they had done this reunification without any gods, I would still be bitter about not getting new models, but the identity of the only faction not in lockstep behind a god would not be shredded.

Have Fyreslayers follow Gotrek..

Have Grombi give heart to Disposessed.

Then, Kharadron can help bring them into contact with each other and provide their own power to drive back whatever is bothering them.

Applying Grungni that starts out by ignoring dwarves all over again and expecting them to believe he's better now is just bad.

Edited May 28, 2021 by zilberfrid

[zilberfrid]

4 hours ago, Televiper11 said:

I’m still hung up on how this has to be an either-or proposition. KO can still explore the skies while they help reclaim the Karaks and then as the Khazalid Empire is rebuilt and trade resume, you can link Skyports to the Karaks to the Lodges to the Cities and create this incredible narrative of Duardin cooperation. No one is asking that the KO be grounded. This isn’t a zero sum proposition.

It isn't a zero sum equasion. It's a 2+2=1 equasion. Both factions are diminished by sticking them together this way.

4 hours ago, Televiper11 said:

I’d imagine Dispo will get their tunneling ability back or another set of mvt tricks. 

Well, then you wouldn't see them coming over that hill in the image, right?

[Joseph Mackay]

4 hours ago, Grotbag Scuttlers When said:

You know what, I actually like that aspect of Cities. Specialized units aside, a Dwarf doesn't fight in a MUCH different way than a Human or a Elf. I have already talked about that in this forum, but my dream for Cities is:

• 6-7, low to medium cost, mixed race Batteline. They would form your core, and really represent the whole "citizens coming together to survive" . They should be sculpted in a style that makes the units feel coese despite the physical differences.
• 3+ specialized units per race. Humans would have demigryph and witch hunters;  Duardin would have ironbreakers and flamethrowers and gyrocopters; HE would have sisters of the watch and phoenix guard, etc etc. These guys and heroes would be the one to contain the "different flavors" in the rules. 

Dwarfs should hit harder because they’re physically stronger, whereas elves should hit better because they’re generally more skilled. Humans are sort of in the middle. And then you’ve got armour/defence-dwarfs should be harder to kill, elves easier to kill, and humans in the middle. You can then have specialised units that ‘break the mold’ as it were, but all 3 races fight significantly different, AoS rules just do a poor job of representing that without a strength and toughness characteristic 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

Have Gotrek lead Fyreslayers.

Nah,

instead have Gotrek be that one and only real dwarf, every other dwarf wants to be and for that reason follow him to every kind of doomed battle.

[zilberfrid]

44 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Nah,

instead have Gotrek be that one and only real dwarf, every other dwarf wants to be and for that reason follow him to every kind of doomed battle.

Have Gotrek unwillingly lead Fyreslayers then?

[Skreech Verminking]

3 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Have Gotrek unwillingly lead Fyreslayers then?

The last time a fyreslayer, tried to force something on him, he literally broke its nose.

So Gotrek unwillingly leading a band if fyreslayers, yeah probably not unless they follow him, but so too can the Dispossesseds, the more real dwarfs then the fyreslayers who are nothing but in actuality,  old world slayers with better looking models.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[zilberfrid]

35 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

The last time a fyreslayer, tried to force something on him, he literally broke its nose.

So Gotrek unwillingly leading a band if fyreslayers, yeah probably not unless they follow him, but so too can the Dispossesseds, the more real dwarfs then the fyreslayers who are nothing but in actuality,  old world slayers with better looking models.

I disagree that the current models look better than the old world ones.

[Mcthew]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but reading through the Soulblight battletome, it seems to hint at mercenaries and allies more than soup.

I do wonder if AoS 3.0 will either drop allied unit/points limitations but beef up limitations on who is allied to whom (and how faction abilities work with allies). It might even allow unlimited mercenary units as hinted by Nagash's shiny and much reduced warscroll 🤔. 

No need for soup then, if you can pick 2 or 3 other starters on the menu?

[Grotbag Scuttlers When]

1 hour ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Dwarfs should hit harder because they’re physically stronger, whereas elves should hit better because they’re generally more skilled. Humans are sort of in the middle. And then you’ve got armour/defence-dwarfs should be harder to kill, elves easier to kill, and humans in the middle. You can then have specialised units that ‘break the mold’ as it were, but all 3 races fight significantly different, AoS rules just do a poor job of representing that without a strength and toughness characteristic 

I agree, without strength and toughness there is no way to portray such small differences. So, since I think that mixed units would be extremely cool from lore and models prospective, they should simply "average" them.

You could somewhat justify this in universe as the basic units being not professional soldiers*, so their training doesn't make the most out of their natural strengths. 

 

* This was the norm in Italian City-States, which I guess is one of the main source of inspiration for Cities.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Grotbag Scuttlers When

[CDM]

I honestly think this talk about soup or non soup is the wrong conversation to be had.

GW clearly shifted its MO several times over base games the last few years and seems to be moving more towards there old model of Battletome/codex + large model release.  I am disappointed by this move as it doesn't serve hobbyists or gamers well.  The best moment for competitive and organised play was at the start if 8th edition 40k. Everything was out of of the indexes. Balance ensued. They announced codexes which I was apprehensive about but they got them out in around 12 months. The first time ever they had all army books in the current edition. I honestly felt this was great,they can move away from editions and focus on generals handbook/ chapter approved rebalancing and adding new content and units etc in conjunction with better apps.

My fear is 3.0 will look like 40 k 9th edition. Slow Battletome updates taking years to get everyone fully updated with conflated army rules. This can be better served introducing content in broken realms style story events with new units, battalions and model releases. 

I believe that being immersed in the lore and enjoying more model releases would be better achieved by not having this slow turnaround of updates to editions and battletomes. I know the fanfare of a new edition and model release is probably hard for them to move away from but  surely they can do that with malign portents and broken realms style events.

[zilberfrid]

4 minutes ago, CDM said:

I honestly think this talk about soup or non soup is the wrong conversation to be had.

GW clearly shifted its MO several times over base games the last few years and seems to be moving more towards there old model of Battletome/codex + large model release.  I am disappointed by this move as it doesn't serve hobbyists or gamers well.  The best moment for competitive and organised play was at the start if 8th edition 40k. Everything was out of of the indexes. Balance ensued. They announced codexes which I was apprehensive about but they got them out in around 12 months. The first time ever they had all army books in the current edition. I honestly felt this was great,they can move away from editions and focus on generals handbook/ chapter approved rebalancing and adding new content and units etc in conjunction with better apps.

My fear is 3.0 will look like 40 k 9th edition. Slow Battletome updates taking years to get everyone fully updated with conflated army rules. This can be better served introducing content in broken realms style story events with new units, battalions and model releases. 

I believe that being immersed in the lore and enjoying more model releases would be better achieved by not having this slow turnaround of updates to editions and battletomes. I know the fanfare of a new edition and model release is probably hard for them to move away from but  surely they can do that with malign portents and broken realms style events.

That is a different conversation. Honestly? Not much in this discussion is about rules.

Keeping identity and hope of new models seems more important to people.

[Joseph Mackay]

1 hour ago, CDM said:

I honestly think this talk about soup or non soup is the wrong conversation to be had.

GW clearly shifted its MO several times over base games the last few years and seems to be moving more towards there old model of Battletome/codex + large model release.  I am disappointed by this move as it doesn't serve hobbyists or gamers well.  The best moment for competitive and organised play was at the start if 8th edition 40k. Everything was out of of the indexes. Balance ensued. They announced codexes which I was apprehensive about but they got them out in around 12 months. The first time ever they had all army books in the current edition. I honestly felt this was great,they can move away from editions and focus on generals handbook/ chapter approved rebalancing and adding new content and units etc in conjunction with better apps.

My fear is 3.0 will look like 40 k 9th edition. Slow Battletome updates taking years to get everyone fully updated with conflated army rules. This can be better served introducing content in broken realms style story events with new units, battalions and model releases. 

I believe that being immersed in the lore and enjoying more model releases would be better achieved by not having this slow turnaround of updates to editions and battletomes. I know the fanfare of a new edition and model release is probably hard for them to move away from but  surely they can do that with malign portents and broken realms style events.

Slightly off topic, but if gw simply removed warscrolls from the battletome altogether and keep them free via download or the app, the battletome would have expanded lore, the allegiance abilities, artefacts etc. that way model releases no longer HAVE to be tied to battletome or campaign book releases, we would be in a much better position 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I disagree that the current models look better than the old world ones.

Ok, I didn’t know you liked the old word slayers model.

I personally like the addition of the pants, but they do kinda look a bit well old

[zilberfrid]

16 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Ok, I didn’t know you liked the old word slayers model.

I personally like the addition of the pants, but they do kinda look a bit well old

I agree that they are old, but even in metal, you can see there's a lot more expression in their faces. 

I'm not saying they hold up, but emotionless berserkers are worse than old sculpts.

They can absolutyely do good slayers:

Edited May 28, 2021 by zilberfrid

[Skreech Verminking]

15 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I agree that they are old, but even in metal, you can see there's a lot more expression in their faces. 

I'm not saying they hold up, but emotionless berserkers are worse than old sculpts.

That is True.

 

[Greybeard86]

There are old minis that have not aged well, including some old chorfs (funny but they look like toy toys), or VC monsters. However, the more recent slayers are ok, if a bit chunky, and have far more character than any of the FS. 

 

[silverstu]

1 hour ago, Greybeard86 said:

There are old minis that have not aged well, including some old chorfs (funny but they look like toy toys), or VC monsters. However, the more recent slayers are ok, if a bit chunky, and have far more character than any of the FS. 

 

The Gotrek sculpt shows how good Slayers can be [the Underworlds warband is rather good too]. I'm hoping for Norse Dwarf beserkers eventually when the Old World is released .

 

7 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

 

If you smear a god over Kharadron, it'll corrupt the faction. They'd still be serving it.

There is no way to consolidate dwarves and keep the identity of Kharadron by applying a god to their forehead.

It's even bad for Fyreslayers. They spent all their zeal on Grimnir, and now that other dude shows up.

Sure, GW can rattle a bit on their keyboards to give any explanation, I won't buy it (literally).

Now they had done this reunification without any gods, I would still be bitter about not getting new models, but the identity of the only faction not in lockstep behind a god would not be shredded.

Have Fyreslayers follow Gotrek..

Have Grombi give heart to Disposessed.

Then, Kharadron can help bring them into contact with each other and provide their own power to drive back whatever is bothering them.

Applying Grungni that starts out by ignoring dwarves all over again and expecting them to believe he's better now is just bad.

I respectfully disagree, Kharadron follow leaders judged on their deeds not their status, plus they could well just be allying with his forces rather than following him, they could retain their independence - I can't imagine Grungni demanding obedience from anyone let alone the Kharadron. The KO book states that Grungni left the Duardin to get on with things without him because he wanted them to be independent, he can still respect that and ask for their support in times of war. 

I think we all want the same - more dwarf models, more lore and more factions - I think the compromise in the short term is that they might be in the same book. The glue of the book will be the faction between Fyreslayers and KO that bridges the two just as in the old World dwarf armies had warriors, quarrellers and veterans in-between the slayers and the engineers. 

I don't like the prospect of the combining the forces in one book, I'm trying to look to the positive which is the possibility of new dwarfs. 

[zilberfrid]

10 minutes ago, silverstu said:

The Gotrek sculpt shows how good Slayers can be [the Underworlds warband is rather good too]. I'm hoping for Norse Dwarf beserkers eventually when the Old World is released .

I respectfully disagree, Kharadron follow leaders judged on their deeds not their status, plus they could well just be allying with his forces rather than following him, they could retain their independence - I can't imagine Grungni demanding obedience from anyone let alone the Kharadron. The KO book states that Grungni left the Duardin to get on with things without him because he wanted them to be independent, he can still respect that and ask for their support in times of war. 

I think we all want the same - more dwarf models, more lore and more factions - I think the compromise in the short term is that they might be in the same book. The glue of the book will be the faction between Fyreslayers and KO that bridges the two just as in the old World dwarf armies had warriors, quarrellers and veterans in-between the slayers and the engineers. 

I don't like the prospect of the combining the forces in one book, I'm trying to look to the positive which is the possibility of new dwarfs. 

I'm rather pessimistic about the prospect of new models and the writing quality of GW (especially when masking a business decision).

I also don't need that much of a push to leave GW behind, I have most of the models I want, am getting better at printing the rest, don't play their games and don't think they're that good at writing. I simply still liked their Kharadron.

Edited May 28, 2021 by zilberfrid

[silverstu]

18 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I'm rather pessimistic about the prospect of new models and the writing quality of GW (especially when masking a business decision).

I also don't need that much of a push to leave GW behind, I have most of the models I want, am getting better at printing the rest, don't play their games and don't think they're that good at writing. I simply still liked their Kharadron.

I can understand that- I don't play just collect. But I'vereally loved the recent dwarf sculpts form them [few though they have been]- Gotrek, Bugmanson and Dagnai are all great [two of which are Kharadron so it would be a shame if they don't bring us more.] Hopefully we will all be pleasantly surprised by new models, but best not to hold one's breath. I have been intrigued by the 3-d print warmaster community so I can see there is a real pull there definitely. 

[darkdark25]

What about a Duardin Cults book, leave Kharadron out of it, Fyreslayers hear of the Gazul worshipers and after a couple of contracts commission them to help resurrect Grimnir, with this comes ethereal Dispossed Units that with arm and head swaps can be regular units in a hypothetical Grungni battletome, and/or they encounter Daughters of Valaya and join them in their quest since both FS and DV are seeking their ancestors.

If this happened would it be preferable to a Kharadron/Fyreslayers soup tome?