AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[JackStreicher]

My Personal Tier List. Units appearing in two lists are considered to be somewhere in between the rankings.

S

Wight King (both), Grave Guards, Belladama

 

A

Vampire Lord, Torguillus, Necromancer, Skeletons, Blood Knights, Black Knights, Radukar the Beast,Vhordrai 

 

B

Radukar the Beast Vhordrai, Vamp on Zombie Dragon, Bloodborn, Lauka Vai, Dire Wolves, Crimson Court, Both Mortarchs

 

C

Both Mortarchs, Zombies, the rest of the Underworld Warbands, Fell Bats, rest of the Cursed City heroes, Vargskyr, Kosargi, Radukar the Wolf, Dragon & Terrorgheist, Avengori Lord

 

D

Vargskyr, Nagash, Mortis Engine, Corpse Cart, Vargheists

 

E

The rest of the Chariots

 

[TechnoVampire]

Thanks community for being there during this troubling time (kidding), but I do appreciate the advice or thoughts. 

I think playing a fairly off meta spam list like I do always runs a heavy risk of a new book or GHB completely throwing thing off, but considering that my list/ style is actually still fairly in tact, although clearly not the focus… I was going to say that I wish GW had decided to include at least one allegiance ability for vamps/ non-summonable units, opening things up a bit, but there is 6+ ward and effectively the hunger is an allegiance ability, just written on warsrcolls. 

I think GW has made a mistake by locking so many abilities to sub-factions, seriously limiting build options, but I also understand the need for focus… I’m just not sure that’s a very fun way of achieving it. 

I think I’ll probably be quite jealous of the new FEC book when it comes out, but I currently don’t have the time, energy or funds to pick up a whole new army. I’ll probably continue playing Kastelai for now and see how it goes. Someone’s gotta do it 🤘

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

Except for nighthaunt, FEC and by the looks of it new OBR 😜

Nighthaunt is super attrition mode maybe as much as Vamps now and aside from monster mash FEC can just keep pumping out the ghouls 

[AHexInScarletRed]

48 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

Thanks community for being there during this troubling time (kidding), but I do appreciate the advice or thoughts. 

I think playing a fairly off meta spam list like I do always runs a heavy risk of a new book or GHB completely throwing thing off, but considering that my list/ style is actually still fairly in tact, although clearly not the focus… I was going to say that I wish GW had decided to include at least one allegiance ability for vamps/ non-summonable units, opening things up a bit, but there is 6+ ward and effectively the hunger is an allegiance ability, just written on warsrcolls. 

I think GW has made a mistake by locking so many abilities to sub-factions, seriously limiting build options, but I also understand the need for focus… I’m just not sure that’s a very fun way of achieving it. 

I think I’ll probably be quite jealous of the new FEC book when it comes out, but I currently don’t have the time, energy or funds to pick up a whole new army. I’ll probably continue playing Kastelai for now and see how it goes. Someone’s gotta do it 🤘

Vhordrai 

VLoZD 

WKoSkeletalSteed

5 Blood Knights 

5 Blood Knights 

20 Zombies 

20 Zombies 

10 Black Knights (or 5+5)

looks fun, still - the Rattle even diversifies the old build a bit. Still playable with 3x Blood Knights, but I think this is a cool option in the new book. 

 

 

[Gothmaug]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

My Personal Tier List. Units appearing in two lists are considered to be somewhere in between the rankings.

E

The rest of the Chariots

 

So I saw in a battletome review that the Coven Throne can now issue 2 commands at the price of one. As an Iron jaws player (who have a similar trait) I find that type of ability extremely useful. I haven't seen the warscroll yet, are the rest of the Coven throne's abilities that bad? OR is it pointed too high for what it can do? 

[Jaskier]

12 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

So I saw in a battletome review that the Coven Throne can now issue 2 commands at the price of one. As an Iron jaws player (who have a similar trait) I find that type of ability extremely useful. I haven't seen the warscroll yet, are the rest of the Coven throne's abilities that bad? OR is it pointed too high for what it can do? 

It's ok. It's not really a combat piece, not super tanky, but it is fast and has a cool ability to either have an extra cast or generate an extra CP. In theory you can make a Vampire Lord by sniping a small hero with its spell in conjunction with other damage spells, or at least force your opponent to dedicate their heroic actions to keeping an otherwise unimportant hero alive to prevent this. I like it well enough but that's because I've long been partial to the unit, losing its unique command ability has really hurt it in my eyes and I don't think it gained enough to make up for that. The double commands, potential hero sniping and value of either extra cast or CP are why you run it, and it's notable for being a fast 'medium' tier hero on a big base, so if you have any auras you can extend them really far. 

 

[Tizianolol]

Not sure if mannfed is bad now. In LoN with counter charge ability i think he can have some play. We just have too see damage output. Now its better then before!

[Gothmaug]

48 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

It's ok. It's not really a combat piece, not super tanky, but it is fast and has a cool ability to either have an extra cast or generate an extra CP. In theory you can make a Vampire Lord by sniping a small hero with its spell in conjunction with other damage spells, or at least force your opponent to dedicate their heroic actions to keeping an otherwise unimportant hero alive to prevent this. I like it well enough but that's because I've long been partial to the unit, losing its unique command ability has really hurt it in my eyes and I don't think it gained enough to make up for that. The double commands, potential hero sniping and value of either extra cast or CP are why you run it, and it's notable for being a fast 'medium' tier hero on a big base, so if you have any auras you can extend them really far. 

 

Ok, well that's encouraging. I spent waaaay to much time painting my coven throne up to be an army showpiece, it would be nice to field it in 3rd edition. 

 

On the other hand, the 20 custom kit-bashed intricately painted black knights that gathered dust all second edition are looking VERY spicy right now. Obviously they need a hero to lead the charge. So I dug through my collection, and broke out  an old metal figure for a nice mounted Wight King custom.  Time to get painting!

 

[AHexInScarletRed]

I'm an Abhorash fanboy primarily, but I loved Zombies (& the kit). The nerf is killing me a tad, even more so because the Corpse Cart is a liability. 

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Gothmaug said:

So I saw in a battletome review that the Coven Throne can now issue 2 commands at the price of one. As an Iron jaws player (who have a similar trait) I find that type of ability extremely useful. I haven't seen the warscroll yet, are the rest of the Coven throne's abilities that bad? OR is it pointed too high for what it can do? 

 Both: it doesn’t do a whole lot for a point cost of 320 points iirc. The one spell it has is a niche gimmick (granted its cool)

Edited April 9, 2023 by JackStreicher

[JackStreicher]

48 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Not sure if mannfed is bad now. In LoN with counter charge ability i think he can have some play. We just have too see damage output. Now its better then before!

He deals some damage. My biggest issue is that he can’t take the retaliation. Or you strike with him last to heal back up (if he survives)

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

First draft of a new list:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Legion of Night
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)*
- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit Gale
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (420)
- Vampiric Sword
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Necromancer (130)*
- Artefact: Morbheg's Claw
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Wight King on Skeletal Steed (110)*
- General
- Command Trait: Unbending Will
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)

Battleline
30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (240)
- Reinforced x 2
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Dire Wolves (130)

Units
10 x Black Knights (200)
- Reinforced x 1

Behemoths
Mortis Engine (180)

Core Battalions
*Command Entourage - Magnificent

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1890 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 137
Drops: 9
 

*not pictured: 10 extra Grave Guard

I call this one: All the coolest models I own anyway.

Game plan: Make use of the powerful SUMMONABLE keyword and try to win on objectives.

Legion of Night for the Black Knight counter-charge and teleport heroic action.

Power pairs:

Wight King and Black Knights. The Wight King is general to make battleline work. He gets Unbending will because he's fast and can go to objectives where I am losing and make all my troops count double  (or be resurrected there since he's SUMMONABLE). Black Knights (counter-)charge stuff and hopefully significantly dent whatever they hit. He gets the Arcane Tome to cast mystic shield and help charge the Mortis Engine.

Belladamma and wolves. Wolves run around and engage stuff that doesn't want to be stuck in combat. Belladamma uses her spells to stop shooting/unleash hell/redeploy. If she has nothing better to do, she casts spirit gale to spread mortals around, increasing the mortal wound pressure from the Mortis Engine.

Necromancer and Skeletons. We all know how this works. He gets morbegh's claw to help him cast his good deathmages spells.

Odd units:

Grave Guard. Thinking of trying 20 shield guys since they have a natural 4+ save now. Those should definitely be able to hold an objective. Alternatively, 2x10 great weapons to go in the grave an be annoying.

VLoZD. He's big and fast and can potentially teleport around. He's in this list because I own a Warsphinx and will not leave it on the shelf.

Mortis Engine. Powers up Deathly Invocation to keep all the SUMMONABLE units alive, adds to attrition through mortal wound pressure and gets charged for a potential once-per-game mortal wound bomb (hopefully fast since all my heroes are casters). Let's be real, this thing is a prime target and will probably get shot to bits before it does anything. But you have to try, right?

EDIT:

There is a variant of this list where you go Legion of Blood and switch the Wight King out for a Vampire Lord. In that list, the Black Knights go on their own (probably 2x5) and the Grave Guard are supported with +1 attacks instead. That list runs the ethereal mega-VLoZD and probably an extra endless spell of some sort.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

 Both: it doesn’t do a whole lot for a point cost of 320 points iirc. The one spell it has is a niche gimmick (granted its cool)

It's 275, so it is competing with the Vengorian Lord more than anything else. The Vengorian is tougher and punchier, but has less utility - especially outside Avengorii. Realistically it probably comes down to what kind of point limit you have set aside for a beefy hero, as I personally would always go for either a Mortarch or Vampire on Dragon if I've got the extra points spare. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Jaskier

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

10 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

When considering the SBGL allegiance ability’s it becomes quite obvious that this is an army purely based on slowly bringing back summonable models and grinding down the opponent:

bring back one summonable (chaff) unit that’s been destroyed at half strength once per battle round on a 4+ or a 3+.  

Bring summonable units out the grave instead of starting on the board. 

Return 3 or 4 models to a summonable unit up to 3 times per turn. 

Army wide 6+ ward.

are these interesting or exciting?

 

I share some of your tastes in hard-hiting stuff and fast movement, and I gotta say, the answer to me for that stuff is a resounding yes. I'm currently playing a lot of S2D, and while I have reasonable success most of the time, I do feel every loss keenly. Easy recursion is a great mechanic for both recovery from bad situations and capitalizing on good ones. Durability of any kind is also something I love--I don't really enjoy glass cannons, but knowing something can come back weakens the sting of losing a unit for me.

9 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

Thanks for correcting me.

I’m glad you are happy with the new book. I genuinely hope most people feel the same way you do.

I don’t want to spread negativity, I think I’m just coming to the realisation that despite loving vampires and dead stuff thematically and aesthetics, mechanically SBGL might not be the right faction for me. 

I think the new book will probably do better competitively. The summoning is much more consistent and if you love hordes of dead stuff coming back this is a great book. If you’re like me and you are more drawn to offensive play, and buffing the vampire side of things, then I think things are a little more tricky. It feels like the primary role of vampires in this book is as necromancer/ support characters and not fighters. 

Blood knights/ Varghiests/ Trueblades are a thing, but I’m not sure kastelai has much of a place in the book, as the more you lean into the sub faction allegiance ability’s the more you ignore the overall faction abilities which feels dissonant. 

Aigain, I don’t want to diminish anyone else’s hype for the new book at all. I’m just trying to figure out if/ how I can still enjoy it. It’s still early days and I may well just be overly disappointed initially and need time to figure it out a bit. 

It's very possible another faction would be a better fit for your playstyle, but I wouldn't write off SBGL just yet, especially if you have much stuff painted and ready for the table. I think a "mixed arms" type approach might help you both capitalize on the army's strengths and still let you field units you like. Kastelai can still be quite good IMO, but not as only Blood Knights--field a few Black Knights and wolves in the mix as well, as others have said. You can mix elite and non-elite units in a very unique way in this faction, and make use of both without compromising either. What's more, recursion is much better than summoning for hobby efforts and model transport--you don't need a lot of Summonable models to pass across your hobby desk or be in your carrying case to have a lot go across the field.

 

For myself, I'm planning on doing the mix of elite and chaff approach that I just discussed in Legion of Blood. I had middling success with it last book, but probably would have done a lot better if I wasn't primarily playing in the Bounty Hunters season. And I still had quite a bit of fun even then. Looking forward to it even more now.

[JackStreicher]

Although I had a very negative opinion on the book at first I have changed my mind. I see a lot of opportunity waiting to ne explored.
 

If I can use my Vampires to some success I‘ll be happy (I‘ll be testing Mannfred an Belladama + Blood Knights)

[TechnoVampire]

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Although I had a very negative opinion on the book at first I have changed my mind. I see a lot of opportunity waiting to ne explored.
 

If I can use my Vampires to some success I‘ll be happy (I‘ll be testing Mannfred an Belladama + Blood Knights)

Interesting. What sub faction will you be taking, and what role do you see Mannfred fulfilling? For me he was such a good support piece in the old book, and a deathmage caster. He was one of my favourite units. Now I’m struggling to see what role he fills or support he provides. 

[TechnoVampire]

I just realised that invigorating aura has been removed from the book, I rarely used it before, but with a keener focus on summonable units and recursion will people be missing it? I always thought it looked pretty strong. 

Also thanks to all those that made suggestions for list building ideas that might more fit my play style. I have some old dire wolves painted, and 20 deathrattle skeletons (love the new models, wish GG had something similar), so I’ll see what I can cobble together. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by TechnoVampire

[Leshoyadut]

33 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

I just realised that invigorating aura has been removed from the book, I rarely used it before, but with a keener focus on summonable units and recursion will people be missing it? I always thought it looked pretty strong.

With how many wizards we have in the army, it was generally pretty easy to get one of them to cast it, especially with the bonus it got from having heroes (which we also had a plethora of, even before Cursed City). I ended up using it a couple times a game on average. But with access to easier and more consistent Endless Legions recursion, I don't think I'll miss it a great deal, especially with Deathly Invocation now healing straight up 4 wounds inside of gravesites. Our other options are more consistent and bigger than they were, so I don't think we'll need Invigorating Aura anymore.

Now, for where I'm at, these are the two lists I'm kinda initially thinking of. I have most of the models for them both, I just need to assemble and paint (basically where I've been at for a long time already).

Spoiler

Legion of Blood for both

Neferata (390)

VLOZD (440)

Vampire Lord (130)

Wight King (135)
General

3x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)

1x Black Knights (110)

1x Black Knights (110)

3x Grave Guard (420)

1990/2000
120 wounds

OR

Neferata (390)

VLOZD (440)

Vampire Lord (130)

Mortis Engine (230)

3x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)

1x Black Knights (110)

1x Black Knights (110)

2x Grave Guard (280)

1945/2000

117 wounds

I really do like the 30 Grave Guard pile, that was something I enjoyed early on after the 2e book released. With shields now changing the save instead of giving +1 to saves, I think they're in a better place, but the 2" reach with great weapons is hard to pass up on a 30 block. Even with just 20 of them, fighting three ranks deep sounds preeeeeeeeetty good. Mortis Engines also seem pretty neat, and I think it would fit well into this grindy setup.

I also want to do a more Black Knight heavy list at some point, but I just miss my hordes of chaff and want to do something with them first.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Leshoyadut
I should really just proofread *before* posting.

[TechnoVampire]

13 minutes ago, Leshoyadut said:

With how many wizards we have in the army, it was generally pretty easy to get one of them to cast it, especially with the bonus it got from having heroes (which we also had a plethora of, even before Cursed City). I ended up using it a couple times a game on average. But with access to easier and more consistent Endless Legions recursion, I don't think I'll miss it a great deal, especially with Deathly Invocation now healing straight up 4 wounds inside of gravesites. Our other options are more consistent and bigger than they were, so I don't think we'll need Invigorating Aura anymore.

Now, for where I'm at, these are the two lists I'm kinda initially thinking of. I have most of the models for them both, I just need to assemble and paint (basically where I've been at for a long time already).

  Hide contents

Legion of Blood for both

Neferata (390)

VLOZD (440)

Vampire Lord (130)

Wight King (135)
General

3x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)

1x Black Knights (110)

1x Black Knights (110)

3x Grave Guard (420)

1990/2000
120 wounds

OR

Neferata (390)

VLOZD (440)

Vampire Lord (130)

Mortis Engine (230)

3x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)

1x Black Knights (110)

1x Black Knights (110)

2x Grave Guard (280)

1945/2000

117 wounds

I really do like the 30 Grave Guard pile, that was something I enjoyed early on after the 2e book released. With shields now changing the save instead of giving +1 to saves, I think they're in a better place, but the 2" reach with great weapons is hard to pass up on a 30 block. Even with just 20 of them, fighting three ranks deep sounds preeeeeeeeetty good. Mortis Engines also seem pretty neat, and I think it would fit well into this grindy setup.

I also want to do a more Black Knight heavy list at some point, but I just miss my hordes of chaff and want to do something with them first.

I like both these lists and I think they could be potent. If I could be bothered painting that many skeletons, this is the direction I would go in the new book. I think VLOZD in LOB looks very strong and stacking buffs on GG has the highest potential output achievable. 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

30 Grave Guard is tempting, especially with the ease of stacking buffs on them now, but that requires a Wight King as your general to unlock them as battleline. Not normally a bad thing--I think Wight Kings are great in the new book, and a general who can return to the field after being slain is awesome! However, Legion of Blood is not where I would do it, as all the LoB command traits depend on the affected unit being within 3" of the General, and the VLoZD is more mobile and on a bigger base.

It might work with a universal enhancement command trait, but historically the only one of those people have taken is Master of Magic, and I don't see that as being a good choice after the Arcane Tome nerf (or even before--Wight Kings could never access SBGL spell lores anyways, and they wouldn't get LoB bonuses to cast either way). I could maaaaaaybe see the one that gives CP on a 5+, because while we don't pay for Crimson Feast and so on any more, the new Heroic Actions could eat into our potential CP economy. But the 5+ doesn't seem worth it.

If you were determined to stick with Legion of Blood for a 30-block of Grave Guard, I'd probably go with the mounted Wight King for the slightly larger base and the much better mobility, for the synergy with LoB conditional battleline, and for his higher wound availability both normally and immediately post-recursion. But I'd probably run it either in Vrykos, LoN, or Kastelai. Yes, Kastelai! Sounds kinda crazy, but the mounted wight king and a Black Knight escort could keep pace with your Blood Knights, and the 30 block can deep strike. Take Prince Vhordrai for managing buffs on however many Blood Knights units you can still fit in (quick mental math says about 4x5?), and it might be good.

[TechnoVampire]

1 hour ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

30 Grave Guard is tempting, especially with the ease of stacking buffs on them now, but that requires a Wight King as your general to unlock them as battleline. Not normally a bad thing--I think Wight Kings are great in the new book, and a general who can return to the field after being slain is awesome! However, Legion of Blood is not where I would do it, as all the LoB command traits depend on the affected unit being within 3" of the General, and the VLoZD is more mobile and on a bigger base.

It might work with a universal enhancement command trait, but historically the only one of those people have taken is Master of Magic, and I don't see that as being a good choice after the Arcane Tome nerf (or even before--Wight Kings could never access SBGL spell lores anyways, and they wouldn't get LoB bonuses to cast either way). I could maaaaaaybe see the one that gives CP on a 5+, because while we don't pay for Crimson Feast and so on any more, the new Heroic Actions could eat into our potential CP economy. But the 5+ doesn't seem worth it.

If you were determined to stick with Legion of Blood for a 30-block of Grave Guard, I'd probably go with the mounted Wight King for the slightly larger base and the much better mobility, for the synergy with LoB conditional battleline, and for his higher wound availability both normally and immediately post-recursion. But I'd probably run it either in Vrykos, LoN, or Kastelai. Yes, Kastelai! Sounds kinda crazy, but the mounted wight king and a Black Knight escort could keep pace with your Blood Knights, and the 30 block can deep strike. Take Prince Vhordrai for managing buffs on however many Blood Knights units you can still fit in (quick mental math says about 4x5?), and it might be good.

That’s very similar to my old list, but with Mannfred for buffing and screening GG. It hit super hard but crumbled to shooting. 

[Leshoyadut]

1 hour ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

If you were determined to stick with Legion of Blood for a 30-block of Grave Guard, I'd probably go with the mounted Wight King for the slightly larger base and the much better mobility, for the synergy with LoB conditional battleline, and for his higher wound availability both normally and immediately post-recursion.

I'm pretty set on LoB, yeah. Though a problem with this suggestion is that my WK list doesn't have the points for changing it to mounted. I'm also actually into the exploding 6s it gives to my bone boys and don't really like any of the LoB CTs, anyways. They're all very specific and finicky. Part of me thinks Battle-Lust on the WK to re-roll runs so he stays in range of the GG is the best choice there, tbh. The subfaction bonuses, heroic actions and artefacts can all work with everything else just fine, so I'm not terribly fussy about the identity of my general in LoB.

But it's just something I'm looking to experiment with, and I can iterate on it after trying it out. That's what Tabletop Simulator is for, after all.

[TechnoVampire]

20 minutes ago, Leshoyadut said:

I'm pretty set on LoB, yeah. Though a problem with this suggestion is that my WK list doesn't have the points for changing it to mounted. I'm also actually into the exploding 6s it gives to my bone boys and don't really like any of the LoB CTs, anyways. They're all very specific and finicky. Part of me thinks Battle-Lust on the WK to re-roll runs so he stays in range of the GG is the best choice there, tbh. The subfaction bonuses, heroic actions and artefacts can all work with everything else just fine, so I'm not terribly fussy about the identity of my general in LoB.

But it's just something I'm looking to experiment with, and I can iterate on it after trying it out. That's what Tabletop Simulator is for, after all.

Ethereal VLOZD with extra attacks hitting on 2’s feels too good to pass up for your list. Also GG with exploding 6’s hitting on 2’s will be scary in combat. 
 

LOB feels like the most obviously good sub faction initially.

Edited April 10, 2023 by TechnoVampire

[JackStreicher]

Imo 2x20 Grave Guards is the way to go!

Wight Kings are potent. You could spawn one snd 20-30 Skeletons out of a grave to threaten the enemies backline. Or chain it: spawn the WK within 9“ of a gravesite and then spawn the skellies within 9“ of the WK.

 

@TechnoVampire I am tinkering with every Bloodline except Avengorii (I don’t like its theme and style)

[TechnoVampire]

Here’s what I’m thinking as a mixture of fast/ hard hitting/ summonable with some stackable buffs in Kastelai:

Vhordrai: (470)

3 x 5 blood knight (690)

1 x 20 GG (280)

Wight king - general - deep strike with GG (135)

Vampire lord (130)

Necro (90)

1 x 20 deathrattle skeleton (170)

1965

(or replace the necro and death rattle with another 20 GG or dire wolves)

(legion of blood with VLOZD is also tempting) 

Edited April 10, 2023 by TechnoVampire