AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[swarmofseals]

@Obeisance I think it depends a little on the specific type of shooting -- Lumineth is a very different animal than KO even though both can be very shooty. In general though being fast and having a lot of defensively efficient units helps a lot. Piling in from outside of 3 is also good. As others have mentioned Belladamma is pretty anti-shooty. Blood Knights, Dire Wolves, Zombies, and maybe some Fell Bats are all going to be strong against shooting. The very heavy hero focused lists are more likely to be soft to shooting I think.

[Obeisance]

Cool, thanks for the replies. To put it into perspective, my other army is OBR and the general answer to problems was "drop rocks on it from 36" away."

Can you take non Kastelli stuff in a Kastelli list? ie; Belldama, who is.. Vyrkos?

But yeah, I get the idea of what the generally good models are. I'm probably gonna grab the book and a couple things after work today.

Edit: Oh, how big are Gravesites? 40mm bases with tombstones work?

Edited July 7, 2021 by Obeisance

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, Obeisance said:

Can you take non Kastelli stuff in a Kastelli list? ie; Belldama, who is.. Vyrkos?

Edit: Oh, how big are Gravesites? 40mm bases with tombstones work?

 

Gravesites are a point on the battlefield, so they have no diameter in themselves (or maybe point is defined as 1mm? I don't recall). You can use a 40mm base with tombstones to represent it, but you should be measuring the 12" range from the center of the base not the edge.

You absolutely can take Kastelai stuff in a non-Kastelai list. The only restriction is that characters who already have a subfaction keyword on their warscroll can't get a new subfaction keyword. So if you take Belladamma in a Kastelai list she won't benefit from Kastelai only abilities (for example, she won't get bonuses for killing enemy units). Similarly, if you take Vhordrai in a Vyrkos list he won't rerolls to cast because he doesn't get the Vyrkos keyword.

[Obeisance]

Ah, that's weird. I thought Gravesites were the Sigmarite Crypts.

But that works. I've got some old tombstones in bits, skulls and leftover arms from OBR stuff. Like the little Harvester arms.

Looking at Belldama, is it Lycancurse that makes her anti-shooting?

[Sception]

1 minute ago, Obeisance said:

Looking at Belldama, is it Lycancurse that makes her anti-shooting?

Yeah.  She has the casting strength to pretty reliably get it off, at least within Vyrkos lists, and if you kill even one model that unit is now w/in 3" of an enemy unit and thus cannot use 'unleash hell' at any other nearby units you happen to charge with that turn.  If you kill a couple models, then, depending on positioning, you might even be able to have a model survive the combat phase against a dedicated ranged unit with little melee ability, preventing the unit from firing at anything else in the subsequent shooting phase.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

With the addition of Gorslav and FAQ updates it sort of feels like the most competitive builds for this army will start leaning more towards zombie spam and defensive play styles.

I'm not sure it will be the most competitive build, but it's definitely a real option now. In my opinion, the problem with Zombie spam in AoS 3 is that it will make it hard to secure Battle Tactics. Same for most low-movement, defensive armies, really. Tactics seem to be about going out and killing/capturing stuff in most cases.

Gorslav is still super good, though. His price point is just extremely appealing for any list that has Deadwalkers in it. It's worth noting that he can not just resurrect Zombies, but also Direwolves, which is really great utility.

[Ordal]

Hi Everybody! I was thinking about an Avengorii list, maybe not the most competitive dynasty but I love the monster theme! 
What do you think?

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Avengorii Dynasty
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Beast Master
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Battle Regiment
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Torment-driven Throes
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Lauka Vai, Mother of Nightmares (285)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (125) in Vanguard
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Battleline
30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255) in Battle Regiment
- Reinforced x 2
10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment
Zombie Dragon (295) in Vanguard
- Cursed Mutation: Urges of Atrocity

Units
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
3 x Vargheists (155) in Battle Regiment
3 x Fell Bats (75) in Battle Regiment

Endless Spells & Invocations
Prismatic Palisade (40)

Core Battalions
Battle Regiment
Vanguard

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130

The plan is to try a first turn assault with both dragons: the VLoZD have +6" movement from Pinions, the Dragon have the free Command from the Vanguard battallion for auto 6" run and the charge and run from cursed mutation, so hopefully they both get 20" move and then assault (maybe rerolling with another command if needed).
Meanwhile the rest of the army will spread over the table to get stuff done. Skeletons + Necormancers as backfield Anvil, Lauka with Blood Knigths and wolves go hunting in the midfield, Vargheists as secondary hammer, maybe in reserve, and fell bats as fast chaff to shut down shooting/unleash hell and general harassment. Prismatic Palisade because I really hate shooting! 🤣

I like the command trait on the VLoZD, which grants a chance to strike with both dragons before being hit back, but it's a littel random, maybe it's better the one for rerolling charges. 
Arcane tome on the necormancer because i want him to be able to cast both vanhel's and invigorating aura on the skeletons, or use overwhelming dread if needed and a support spell for the skeletons.
Amarantine Orb on Lauka is just for opportunity, I think i will be mostly use Mystic shield on the knights or meybe her spell for board control. Speaking of situational spells, Ghost Mist is another strong candidate, but it's maybe too much having the palisade already. And there's always the good old arcane bolt. (which combined with monstrous stomp and Luaka impact ability, means she can deal serious amount of mortals just charging in).

About Lauka, the new FAQ have changed her command ability which now triggers at the start of the command phase, same trigger as Undeniable Impulse which prevent her from using command abilities for the round. IIRC when two abilities have the same timing, the active player chooses the order of activation, which means now we can always use Lauka own command ability (but she can still go crazy and be unalbe to issue standard commands fo the rest of the round), is this correct?
 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

28 minutes ago, Ordal said:

About Lauka, the new FAQ have changed her command ability which now triggers at the start of the command phase, same trigger as Undeniable Impulse which prevent her from using command abilities for the round. IIRC when two abilities have the same timing, the active player chooses the order of activation, which means now we can always use Lauka own command ability (but she can still go crazy and be unalbe to issue standard commands fo the rest of the round), is this correct?

Good catch! I'm not 100% sure it's intended this way, but it's definitely how it works. That's actually a pretty nice buff for Lauka Vai.

[Obeisance]

Well guys, looks like I'm in. I picked up the army book today.

Just ordered 2 Bats, 2 Zombies, Wolves, Wight King and Belldamma, I'll pick up some Blood Knights and Vengorian from my LGS as I know they have them in stock.

I can't believe the VLOZD only comes in the Start Collecting FEC box. wtf.

[djrodriguez123]

15 minutes ago, Obeisance said:

Well guys, looks like I'm in. I picked up the army book today.

Just ordered 2 Bats, 2 Zombies, Wolves, Wight King and Belldamma, I'll pick up some Blood Knights and Vengorian from my LGS as I know they have them in stock.

I can't believe the VLOZD only comes in the Start Collecting FEC box. wtf.

I bought two boxes of start FEC and just sold the Ghouls and horrors 🤣

[swarmofseals]

2 hours ago, Obeisance said:

Well guys, looks like I'm in. I picked up the army book today.

Just ordered 2 Bats, 2 Zombies, Wolves, Wight King and Belldamma, I'll pick up some Blood Knights and Vengorian from my LGS as I know they have them in stock.

I can't believe the VLOZD only comes in the Start Collecting FEC box. wtf.

Your LGS has Blood Knights! nice.

[Warbossironteef]

7 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'm not sure it will be the most competitive build, but it's definitely a real option now. In my opinion, the problem with Zombie spam in AoS 3 is that it will make it hard to secure Battle Tactics. Same for most low-movement, defensive armies, really. Tactics seem to be about going out and killing/capturing stuff in most cases.

Gorslav is still super good, though. His price point is just extremely appealing for any list that has Deadwalkers in it. It's worth noting that he can not just resurrect Zombies, but also Direwolves, which is really great utility.

Funny thing is I dont plan on playing slow and defensively with zombies. I think the new range on Gravesites is huge for zombie lists. You can aggressively summon 80 Zombies turn 1 or 2 and have them pressuring objectives. Bella, Radukar the Beast and VLOZD/Prince V are all fast units, so are Dire Wolves and Fellbats. I think defensive and conservative isn't the play style with Zombies and our hordes. It's more aggressive, grindy and pin your opponent in. This is why I think Graveguard, while awesome hammers, will stay on the bench for me. They don't do well with this playstyle.

These are all things I'll need more games than the few i've played to work out but that's my playstyle with Zombies. I dont think you'll win many games by sitting on your own objectives with 40 Zombies, but I do think throwing 80-100 into your opponents lines early in the game can win games. 

It's also why I think a durable, Hunters Snare, VLOZD is so important. He allows you to be aggressive while putting pressure on opponent because he counts as 14 models. 

[C0deb1ue]

If I'm buying into Soulblight and want to run Vyrkos or Avengorii.... what should I be buying for a good core? Thanks

[Ordal]

21 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

It's also why I think a durable, Hunters Snare, VLOZD is so important. He allows you to be aggressive while putting pressure on opponent because he counts as 14 models. 

Hunters Snare was changed in the latest FAQ, now its capped to "count as 5 models" if the general with the trait has more than 5 wounds. Since monsters already count as 5 models in 3rd edition, Hunter Snare now is useless on monster heroes. And even with other heores I think Vyrkos have better options.

31 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

These are all things I'll need more games than the few i've played to work out but that's my playstyle with Zombies. I dont think you'll win many games by sitting on your own objectives with 40 Zombies, but I do think throwing 80-100 into your opponents lines early in the game can win games. 

I think the same: for babysitting home objectives, skeletons are a better option. Even a single squad of 40 zombies summoned on the front line is a threat to be dealt with, making your opponent take choices is always a good thing.

[Sception]

1 hour ago, C0deb1ue said:

If I'm buying into Soulblight and want to run Vyrkos or Avengorii.... what should I be buying for a good core? Thanks

Avengori want monsters, and the most cost efficient means of purchasing them is FEC start collecting boxes.  It's ever so slightly cheaper to buy the monsters on their own, but if you've got an Avengorii monster spam army then you've also got the better part of a Gristlegore FEC army, so you might as well pick up the FEC units on the cheap while you're collecting your zombie dragons and terrorgheists so you've got them at the ready down the line.

I'd start with:

• Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (biggest generic monster hero to take advantage of avengorii traits, artefacts, and monster bonuses)
• Lauka Vai (regular Vengo might be a touch better, but I'd want to run Lauka if I were playing her dynasty, plus she gets to be a second general while saving your artefact and trait for the dragon lord)
• Zombie Dragon (you pick avengori to monster mash)
• Terrorgheist (you pick avengori to monster mash)
• 10 Dire Wolves (round out obligatory battleline with some wolves to screen/chase objectives
• 2x3 Fell Bats (to screen, harass shooty units, in particular to soak 'unleash hell')

That leaves not quite 400 points in a 2k game.  You could grab a bunch of zombies to bubble-wrap part of your deployment, or a block of 20 skeletons to sit an objective, a balefire corpse cart help protect your monsters from first turn alpha-rushes, more wolves, maybe a necromancer or other small hero for core battalion requirements, another big monster.  Whatever you want really.  It's not particularly on-theme, but several of the non-Avengorii special characters are also worth considering here, including Volga, Radukar the Beast, maybe mannfred.  Radubeast + a balefire cart would exactly fill your remaining points.

....

Vyrkos have a much broader set of abilities, rather than being focused down on one narrow gimmick, so there's a lot of ways you could go with them.  Big infantry blobs buffed by their vampire auras off of radukar the wolf (plus torgillius, maybe a couple units of nightguard, maybe an additional generic vampire lord to spread the aura).  Such an infantry list could focus on grave guard for hitting power, or zombies to take advantage of spoor tracker and Gorslav, or maybe a faster list with wolves, blood knights, maybe volga and/or radukar the beast, maybe a vargskyr or two, or maybe a dragon lord with the ability to count wounds characteristic for objective capture.

If I were to make a Vyrkos army, I'd want something that heavily featured their unique options from Cursed City, maybe something like:

• Beladamma
• Radukar the Wolf
• Torgillius
• Gorslav
• Vampire Lord
• Vargskyr
• Balefire Cart
• 3 Blood-born
• 2x2 Kosargi
• 2x10 dire Wovles
• 60 Zombies
• 5 Blood Knights

Maybe a necromancer in place of the blood borne, or maybe radukar the beast and a necromancer in place of radukar the wolf, torgilius, and the Korsargi, maybe cut the zombies back to 40 and shift some other stuff around to fit in some skeletons for objective camping, i don't know.  Again, Vyrkos have a very broad ability set, like the old Warhammer Fantasy von carsteins, plus they have a lot of bespoke units and heroes to consider - especially after the cursed city crew was broken up, so there's tons of ways you could go about building a vyrkos list.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Sception

[Ordal]

Speaking of zombies, there are some interaction with the new rules for piling in that greatly benefit our putrid little friends.
Back in 2nd edition, the rule said "the model cannot end it's movement further away from the closest enemy MODEL than it was at the start of the movment".
Now in 3rd edition is says "the model cannot end it's movement further away from the closest enemy UNIT than it was at the start of the movment". 

This means that as long as your models are touching enemy models, you could move them around the enemy unit, letting the first line "flow" making room for the backlines to come closer, without having to circumnavigate the first line to get in reach.
Since we have to keep coerency, this has still some limitation, but with a 6" pile in movement, I think 20 zombies from a bigger unit could easly get all in reach with a 2 rank formation. 

[Warbossironteef]

35 minutes ago, Ordal said:

Hunters Snare was changed in the latest FAQ, now its capped to "count as 5 models" if the general with the trait has more than 5 wounds. Since monsters already count as 5 models in 3rd edition, Hunter Snare now is useless on monster heroes. And even with other heores I think Vyrkos have better options.

I think the same: for babysitting home objectives, skeletons are a better option. Even a single squad of 40 zombies summoned on the front line is a threat to be dealt with, making your opponent take choices is always a good thing.

I don't think you're right about the FAQ, but I can see why it's confusing.

"‘This general does not receive any further modification to this number for being a Monster or having a Wounds characteristic of 5 or more"

 

Key wording is receive any further modification to this number. This number referring to the wounds characteristic. So it was clarifying that a monster hero with Hunters Snare doesnt count as 19 wounds (14 plus the 5 for being a monster). It's still very very good.

[swarmofseals]

@Warbossironteef It'll be interesting to see if there is a tipping point between having a 5+ and a 6+ ward for the VLoZD in terms of survivability. At first glance it seems not worth it to give up the d3 extra lance attacks to move the ward from 6+ to 5+, but depending on the precise amount of incoming damage you could easily be correct.

[Warbossironteef]

39 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

@Warbossironteef It'll be interesting to see if there is a tipping point between having a 5+ and a 6+ ward for the VLoZD in terms of survivability. At first glance it seems not worth it to give up the d3 extra lance attacks to move the ward from 6+ to 5+, but depending on the precise amount of incoming damage you could easily be correct.

Yeah there is definitely a trade off. I think it will depend on how you play your VLOZD. I like leaning into his durability and Hunters Snare in Vyrkos. That said, maybe some lists need a more reliable hammer and the d3 attacks are better.

D3 attacks on the charge is a very swingy thing. You might get what, 2 charges off a game? Maybe only 1. So on average you're getting 2-3 extra attacks? It might be the dmg you need to punch through a key unit, especially with flat 4, but it is a very swingy artefact. 

[C0deb1ue]

4 hours ago, Sception said:

Avengori want monsters, and the most cost efficient means of purchasing them is FEC start collecting boxes.  It's ever so slightly cheaper to buy the monsters on their own, but if you've got an Avengorii monster spam army then you've also got the better part of a Gristlegore FEC army, so you might as well pick up the FEC units on the cheap while you're collecting your zombie dragons and terrorgheists so you've got them at the ready down the line.

I'd start with:

• Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (biggest generic monster hero to take advantage of avengorii traits, artefacts, and monster bonuses)
• Lauka Vai (regular Vengo might be a touch better, but I'd want to run Lauka if I were playing her dynasty, plus she gets to be a second general while saving your artefact and trait for the dragon lord)
• Zombie Dragon (you pick avengori to monster mash)
• Terrorgheist (you pick avengori to monster mash)
• 10 Dire Wolves (round out obligatory battleline with some wolves to screen/chase objectives
• 2x3 Fell Bats (to screen, harass shooty units, in particular to soak 'unleash hell')

That leaves not quite 400 points in a 2k game.  You could grab a bunch of zombies to bubble-wrap part of your deployment, or a block of 20 skeletons to sit an objective, a balefire corpse cart help protect your monsters from first turn alpha-rushes, more wolves, maybe a necromancer or other small hero for core battalion requirements, another big monster.  Whatever you want really.  It's not particularly on-theme, but several of the non-Avengorii special characters are also worth considering here, including Volga, Radukar the Beast, maybe mannfred.  Radubeast + a balefire cart would exactly fill your remaining points.

....

Vyrkos have a much broader set of abilities, rather than being focused down on one narrow gimmick, so there's a lot of ways you could go with them.  Big infantry blobs buffed by their vampire auras off of radukar the wolf (plus torgillius, maybe a couple units of nightguard, maybe an additional generic vampire lord to spread the aura).  Such an infantry list could focus on grave guard for hitting power, or zombies to take advantage of spoor tracker and Gorslav, or maybe a faster list with wolves, blood knights, maybe volga and/or radukar the beast, maybe a vargskyr or two, or maybe a dragon lord with the ability to count wounds characteristic for objective capture.

If I were to make a Vyrkos army, I'd want something that heavily featured their unique options from Cursed City, maybe something like:

• Beladamma
• Radukar the Wolf
• Torgillius
• Gorslav
• Vampire Lord
• Vargskyr
• Balefire Cart
• 3 Blood-born
• 2x2 Kosargi
• 2x10 dire Wovles
• 60 Zombies
• 5 Blood Knights

Maybe a necromancer in place of the blood borne, or maybe radukar the beast and a necromancer in place of radukar the wolf, torgilius, and the Korsargi, maybe cut the zombies back to 40 and shift some other stuff around to fit in some skeletons for objective camping, i don't know.  Again, Vyrkos have a very broad ability set, like the old Warhammer Fantasy von carsteins, plus they have a lot of bespoke units and heroes to consider - especially after the cursed city crew was broken up, so there's tons of ways you could go about building a vyrkos list.

Amazing! Thanks so much

[Obeisance]

I made some Death themed tactics and spell cards. Heartthstone cards, MTG art.

SB Lores.pdfSB Tactics.pdf

SB Other.pdf

Edited July 9, 2021 by Obeisance

[Liquidsteel]

Going from a 6+ to a 5+ Ward gives your 14 Wound VLoZD an extra 2.3 Wounds on average, needing 18.6 wounds to one shot him vs 16.3.

In this game of higher saves and more healing, it's definitely a strong option, and the more you heal the better this artefact becomes. But is it worth the potential killing power? That's a tough choice. Your opponent may also be tempted to pick another target, knowing this, which could further keep him alive.

If you are also running a Vengorian Lord, it might be worth a Warlord Battalion and having both, Sangysron on the VLoZD and Amulet of Destiny on the Vengorian.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Liquidsteel

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

47 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Going from a 6+ to a 5+ Ward gives your 14 Wound VLoZD an extra 2.3 Wounds on average, needing 18.6 wounds to one shot him vs 16.3.

In this game of higher saves and more healing, it's definitely a strong option, and the more you heal the better this artefact becomes. But is it worth the potential killing power? That's a tough choice. Your opponent may also be tempted to pick another target, knowing this, which could further keep him alive.

If you are also running a Vengorian Lord, it might be worth a Warlord Battalion and having both, Sangysron on the VLoZD and Amulet of Destiny on the Vengorian.

I think you have a small error in your math somewhere. A 5+ ward is equivalent to multiplying your base wounds by 1.5, because you prevent 1/3 of attacks from dealing damage. 6+ is a multiplier of ~1,16. So ward 5+ is more than twice as good: It moves your effective wounds from 16.3 to 21.

This effect become even more valuable if you stack it with a high base save, since it basically works like stacking two mutlipliers:

	6+ ward	5+ ward
3+ save	48,97	63
2+ save	97,94	126

The numbers are the effective wounds on a VLoZD, assuming no rend. Which is another important point in favour of the 5+ ward: It's unrendable and protects against mortal wounds as well.

Finally, it's important to realize that every wound healed if you are on a 2+/5++ is equivalent to 9 no-rend wounds your opponent needs to deal to you. So those 2d3 Heroic Recovery and 1d3 from The Hunger also gain a lot of value.

[Wordy9th]

Is taking soulbound garments on your Vlozd less appetizing than the 5+ ward save artifact then?

[Liquidsteel]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think you have a small error in your math somewhere. A 5+ ward is equivalent to multiplying your base wounds by 1.5, because you prevent 1/3 of attacks from dealing damage. 6+ is a multiplier of ~1,16. So ward 5+ is more than twice as good: It moves your effective wounds from 16.3 to 21.

This effect become even more valuable if you stack it with a high base save, since it basically works like stacking two mutlipliers:

	6+ ward	5+ ward
3+ save	48,97	63
2+ save	97,94	126

The numbers are the effective wounds on a VLoZD, assuming no rend. Which is another important point in favour of the 5+ ward: It's unrendable and protects against mortal wounds as well.

Finally, it's important to realize that every wound healed if you are on a 2+/5++ is equivalent to 9 no-rend wounds your opponent needs to deal to you. So those 2d3 Heroic Recovery and 1d3 from The Hunger also gain a lot of value.

Yeah thanks, I'm not a maths guy, I just did the average of 14 dice haha, silly.