Gamesworkshop's Evolving Release Strategy

[Siegfried VII]

2 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

GW's rules delivery system is hugely out of date, and doesn't make much economic sense. Printing those hardback books is hugely expensive; most of the reason we pay so much for rules is just paying for the physical printing of the books, not their content. 

Many miniature companies give away the rules for free online, realizing that their profit margins are in plastic, not in the rules. If GW started making all its rules available completely for free online (or even in the app, for the $1 a month), its profit margin would probably increase, not decrease. 

I don't dissagree here and though personally I love getting new books and have the excitement of opening a brand new battletome and read the fluff and the rules (it renews my hype and interest for the faction), what you suggest may very well be a viable way, at least regarding the gaming aspect of the hobby.

Now whether that would be more profitable for GW I can't say for sure as I lack the economics background to have an informed opinion..

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

General's handook and main rulebook have no relation with battletomes and their cycle.. Regarding 2 campaign books this is hardly the case for any army that exists. If you prefer to use the money for the painting part of the hobby good for you, but you can't have a good ruleset with additions and fixes and not have to invest some money. 

Campaign Books have also lore and advance the story.. If someone isn't interested in this part it his choice and his problem really.. If there is a book that only has one page for your army, just download it from some source or find a picture from someone who has it and that will be that

I have full armies for Stormcast Eternals, Sylvaneth, Lumineth, Cities of Sigmar, Idoneth and Daughters of Khaine and Idon't think I spend more than 100 euros per year for books.... And that is with me owning 6 full factions, so I fail to see the argument on the financial investment to be honest..

I mean, yes, you probably haven't spent the money strictly required to play those armies. Because you haven't actually bought all the books for the rules you use. which is sort of the point. GW's rules management inspires people to find alternative methods. This is, however, part of the problem, yeah? Widespread piracy is almost always a failure of the business. 

 

27 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

I would appreciate if you didn't twist my words.. I said in a previous post that 32,5 is a drop in the ocean compared to the money the vast majority of us invest in the hobby and in miniatures and that is a fact.

100 euros is not a drop in the ocean, but if one has 6 armies and wants to have all of them up to date in terms of rules having to buy 3-4 books per year is logical.. 

As for me, my income is quite small so 100 euros is a substantial ammount of money for me.  The fact that I got 6 armies during the lifespan of Age of Sigmar and not sticking to 1 or 2 factions only is a personal choice and the consequences mine to deal with.

I have no interest in generalizing my experience nor in forcing my view to others. I am free though to express my opinion regarding this topic. You are free to dissagree and have a different opinion of course.. 😉 

 

I mean, mate, you're obviously not buying all the books required to keep up with those armies. Maybe you have buddies that share out their books. Maybe you pirate. I dunno, but just those armies alone is almost 300 dollars for the BRB and those battletomes. Not counting the GHB, which are required to play the game, plus malign portents that you probably bought, and broken realms now, which you are going to have to buy again. And probably a third and fourth time to keep all those armies up to date. And I am forgetting a book or two that were all the rage for like a year. You are spending dramatically more than 100 euro, or finding them through alternate means.

 

 

 

[yukishiro1]

They could still keep selling the tomes for people who wanted to buy them. Whether they would or not would answer the question of whether they actually make significant profits from them. I don't think they do - the cost of printing and distribution is pretty much fixed and it's well known that printing a glossy hardback color document is extremely expensive, even when you do it in China - but obviously I'm not privy to their internal accounts, so I can't say for sure.

 

 

[Siegfried VII]

3 minutes ago, stratigo said:

I mean, mate, you're obviously not buying all the books required to keep up with those armies. Maybe you have buddies that share out their books. Maybe you pirate. I dunno, but just those armies alone is almost 300 dollars for the BRB and those battletomes. Not counting the GHB, which are required to play the game, plus malign portents that you probably bought, and broken realms now, which you are going to have to buy again. And probably a third and fourth time to keep all those armies up to date. And I am forgetting a book or two that were all the rage for like a year. You are spending dramatically more than 100 euro, or finding them through alternate means.

Personally I have bought all my Battletomes in physical copies properly. I like them so I buy them.

What you say is not correct because not all 6 of my armies get a battletome every year, main rulebook is every 3 years and campaign books with rules will not include always your armies or be available every year. 

In 2020 I bought 2 books. Lumineth Battletome and Morathi Broken Realms (didn't get the GHB due to lack of gaming).

In 2019 I bought 3 books. GHB, Sylvaneth  and Cities battletomes.

So as I said it's really not that much.. 😉  

[stratigo]

4 hours ago, Siegfried VII said:

Personally I have bought all my Battletomes in physical copies properly. I like them so I buy them.

What you say is not correct because not all 6 of my armies get a battletome every year, main rulebook is every 3 years and campaign books with rules will not include always your armies or be available every year. 

In 2020 I bought 2 books. Lumineth Battletome and Morathi Broken Realms (didn't get the GHB due to lack of gaming).

In 2019 I bought 3 books. GHB, Sylvaneth  and Cities battletomes.

So as I said it's really not that much.. 😉  

So, you didn't buy any GHB? 

 

Also... I don't believe you

[Siegfried VII]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

So, you didn't buy any GHB? 

 

Also... I don't believe you

Only the 2020 as I felt it was redundant due to covid.

He he Ican  post some pictures if you like.. 😛 

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

Only the 2020 as I felt it was redundant due to covid.

He he Ican  post some pictures if you like.. 😛 

Sure, shoot a pic of all the AoS books you got and we can calculate how much you paid for them

[Siegfried VII]

18 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Sure, shoot a pic of all the AoS books you got and we can calculate how much you paid for them

You clearly miss the point here, so I won't continue debating with you. I have already replied regarding the cost of the books per year and there's nothing more to say really..

Let's agree to dissagree and both be happy.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Siegfried VII

[stratigo]

3 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

You clearly miss the point here, so I won't continue debating with you. I have already replied regarding the cost of the books per year and there's nothing more to say really..

Let's agree to dissagree and both be happy.

But, like, your math didn't add up

[Siegfried VII]

15 minutes ago, stratigo said:

But, like, your math didn't add up

Then you either didn't read my posts properly or your own math is sorely lacking mate. Sorry.

[EccentricCircle]

But the point is that buying things incrementally over several years is more affordable, even if the ultimate cost is the same. 

The question isn't how much you have to pay for books in total, but rather at what point the increased rate of recycling\updating gets too much.

 It is entirely possible to play the game using only the free resources. I'm sure most people here play with the rules in the battle tomes, but those aren't actually compulsory. We are the exception, not the rule, and I suspect the vast majority of less fanatical AoS players out in the wild mostly use the free rules or occasionally get the tome for their one  army.

the release rate only becomes a problem if like many of us you obsess over the new releases. The trouble is that we're a really small fraction of the fan base, so GW's release strategy isn't calibrated for us. They want to sell a couple of books a year to the folks who only buy them occasionally. That means churning out a constant cycle of updated books to catch everyone who might just have one army, or not care about the GHB or the latest campaign.

But pretending that books are a compulsory purchase for a few pages of rules is just daft. I remember a few times as kids when the latest campaign was all the rage, but we didn't all rush out to buy a copy. One person had it, and we all used it as a group.

We buy books for the lore, the painting guides, the bestiary and the catalogue of minis. The additional special rules are actually only a very small part of the product. Now there is an argument that a lot of that stuff can now be done better on line, but the book is more of a prestige product to inspire and read for its own sake. The trouble is you can't have it both ways. You can't have a pricey full colour hardback that is also marketed as a disposable product that will be erratad a week later and out of date next year.

[stratigo]

1 minute ago, EccentricCircle said:

But the point is that buying things incrementally over several years is more affordable, even if the ultimate cost is the same. 

The question isn't how much you have to pay for books in total, but rather at what point the increased rate of recycling\updating gets too much.

 It is entirely possible to play the game using only the free resources. I'm sure most people here play with the rules in the battle tomes, but those aren't actually compulsory. We are the exception, not the rule, and I suspect the vast majority of less fanatical AoS players out in the wild mostly use the free rules or occasionally get the tome for their one  army.

the release rate only becomes a problem if like many of us you obsess over the new releases. The trouble is that we're a really small fraction of the fan base, so GW's release strategy isn't calibrated for us. They want to sell a couple of books a year to the folks who only buy them occasionally. That means churning out a constant cycle of updated books to catch everyone who might just have one army, or not care about the GHB or the latest campaign.

But pretending that books are a compulsory purchase for a few pages of rules is just daft. I remember a few times as kids when the latest campaign was all the rage, but we didn't all rush out to buy a copy. One person had it, and we all used it as a group.

We buy books for the lore, the painting guides, the bestiary and the catalogue of minis. The additional special rules are actually only a very small part of the product. Now there is an argument that a lot of that stuff can now be done better on line, but the book is more of a prestige product to inspire and read for its own sake. The trouble is you can't have it both ways. You can't have a pricey full colour hardback that is also marketed as a disposable product that will be erratad a week later and out of date next year.

I think the people who play without a battletome is less than 5 percent. GW's entire modern strategy is "RELEASE HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE!", so I don't know who you think they are targeting with this? It ain't the guy who came into a shop and bought a starter for his 12 year old who goofed around with the models for a month and then forgot about them. GW wants people in the ecosystem, because they pay money reliably. 

 

Also, rules sharing is great. People should do that. 

[Beastmaster]

So far, I bought exactly one battletome. Found out there’s nothing in it ruleswise that I hadn’t read before in the internet plus warscroll app. I feel like just like warscroll cards, you buy battletomes for convenience. And lore and artwork. All of the crunch can be found elsewhere for free, if you want/need to go cheap. It’s pretty fair, I think.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Beastmaster

[stratigo]

5 hours ago, Beastmaster said:

So far, I bought exactly one battletome. Found out there’s nothing in it ruleswise that I hadn’t read before in the internet plus warscroll app. I feel like just like warscroll cards, you buy battletomes for convenience. And lore and artwork. All of the crunch can be found elsewhere for free, if you want/need to go cheap. It’s pretty fair, I think.

but it isn't exactly legal. 

[Enoby]

I know we've been asked not to talk about piracy, but this is a genuine question - is reading a 1d4chan's summary of the rules piracy? As in, where they give a list of artifacts or traits or battalions and say what they do?  I'm no expert in copyright law so I don't know. 

[zilberfrid]

9 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I know we've been asked not to talk about piracy, but this is a genuine question - is reading a 1d4chan's summary of the rules piracy? As in, where they give a list of artifacts or traits or battalions and say what they do?  I'm no expert in copyright law so I don't know. 

I think it is, but this is one of the only ways to see what other armies can do (so what you need to account for) without spending silly amounts on overpriced paper you have no further use for.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

12 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I know we've been asked not to talk about piracy, but this is a genuine question - is reading a 1d4chan's summary of the rules piracy? As in, where they give a list of artifacts or traits or battalions and say what they do?  I'm no expert in copyright law so I don't know. 

GW certainly does not seem to make any attempts to shut down 1d4chan and "man reads book" on youtube. As well as AoS reminders and Warscroll Builder for that matter. Between all of those, you certainly de facto don't need to buy books for rules. I mean, if the intent is that books are luxury/convenience products, but GW is fine with everyone getting the rules elsewhere, that's OK with me.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

12 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I know we've been asked not to talk about piracy, but this is a genuine question - is reading a 1d4chan's summary of the rules piracy? As in, where they give a list of artifacts or traits or battalions and say what they do?  I'm no expert in copyright law so I don't know. 

I am not a copyright lawyer by any means but fair use doctrine allows “transformative” use.  While as many other have noted what constitutes “transformative” is debatable the two most common standards are 1) commentary and critique, and 2) parody.  Most of what we are talking about here would fall under the former.  So, without GW’s permission a website couldn’t simply reprint the pages of a battle tome.  But the sites in question mainly seem to rewrite AND comment critique on say, the artefacts or the allegiance abilities.

Again, can’t defend them myself in a court of law but “reasonableness” seems to suggest that I can’t comment on or critique the value of a battalion without informing the reader of what the battalion requires and what it does.  The biggest question I see is in the volume (I.e. the referenced websites don’t just publish on one or two parts of the tome but basically the entire rules sections) as that can be a factor too.

But the reality is I think GW is relatively fine with these websites because they lower the barrier to entry, which helps them sell more models, and act as effective gateways to people who will eventually upgrade to buying tomes.

[Enoby]

Yeah, that's why I was a bit confused - 1d4chan is big enough to get GW's attention, and they often give YouTube channels the ability to review books early (including detailed rules), so they can't be wholly against free rules (but are very obviously anti-piracy). I assume these free rules are overall a benefit to GW as they let people see a faction before buying and so can push people who were on the fence over, compared to those people just not wanting to take the risk. I know personally they've been helpful to understanding the opponent's army and helping people make lists for armies I don't collect, but I'd always buy the battletome for my own armies. 

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

18 minutes ago, Enoby said:

. I know personally they've been helpful to understanding the opponent's army and helping people make lists for armies I don't collect, but I'd always buy the battletome for my own armies

Yeah, while slightly less expensive than a new car 😉I like to read reviews about what a faction is and what it can do before committing.   Without fair use doctrine these wonderful threads on this website couldn’t exist given the details discussed within each faction’s thread.   While they aren’t organized an ambitious enough player could probably pick everything up if they were willing to read through all the posts (taking notes)...

But once I commit I buy the battle tome. 

I think the rewriting is as key as the critique ultimately because, in the end you can’t “officially” settle a rules dispute by referencing these commentaries but rather have to directly reference the actual wording in the tome, the FAQ, etc.  all things GW retains strong control of.

[EMMachine]

I have the feeling, in case of Points GW could have a better way than the generals Handbook + Battletome story.

We see with 40k that GW is able to give entire pointlists as PDFs.

Making it the same way with AoS would solve 1 problem. Points would be at the same place, they would be free and we wouldn't have the problem that factiones needed an Errata for the Points instead.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

GW does post all the AoS points for free in their FAQs as you note.  It is the last page of the errata for each faction so I guess I’m not terribly sure why those are more difficult than PDFs as a free reference?  Is it that each faction is separate?

Edited January 26, 2021 by Beer & Pretzels Gamer

[Beastmaster]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

GW certainly does not seem to make any attempts to shut down 1d4chan and "man reads book" on youtube. As well as AoS reminders and Warscroll Builder for that matter. Between all of those, you certainly de facto don't need to buy books for rules. I mean, if the intent is that books are luxury/convenience products, but GW is fine with everyone getting the rules elsewhere, that's OK with me.

I‘d imagine they don’t really care, as long as sales numbers are ok. It’s a mixed bag for GW: After all, I think many later customers (me included) were drawn into one or multiple GW games because they got intrigued by the details of one or the other army/warband/killteam while reading on the internet. They still buy models, after all. And once they are into an army, the completionist kicks in, and they buy the books too.  

Edited January 26, 2021 by Beastmaster

[stratigo]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

I know we've been asked not to talk about piracy, but this is a genuine question - is reading a 1d4chan's summary of the rules piracy? As in, where they give a list of artifacts or traits or battalions and say what they do?  I'm no expert in copyright law so I don't know. 

it probably isn't piracy because you aren't receiving a copy.

 

But it IS almost certainly a violation of GW's copyrights.

 

GW doesn't care so much. They get the best of both worlds. Free rules, but also bilking people not in the know or who have some strange moral attachment to corporate bottom lines. The rules aren't the IP GW is desperate to protect. It's the models.

[EccentricCircle]

I have no particular knowledge of copywrite law, or how it might relate to gaming products. However I can explain how copying and quoting works in academic and journalistic contexts. 

Making a direct copy, such as photographing or photocopying a page is illegal (that's why pages with character sheets and army rosters usually have a specific disclaimer saying that they can be copied). Sometimes you can get away with copying a small section, such as one article in a journal (if I remember correctly).

However you are quite within your rights to read a book at the library and make notes. Rules information in a warhammer book is simple enough that you could make notes on everything you need to play the game, and type it up in your own words. In other words making a cheat sheet for yourself or your friends to use. Finding a library that has the latest battletome would be the challenge. Some games clubs and universities perhaps?  I guess if you live in London the British Library might?

However, once you've made your cheat sheets, actually publishing that (online or otherwise) for other people to refer to is going to be where things get dodgy. In theory... if you were writing up a "transformative" work that discussed and provided commentary to the rules, then I think you would be within your rights to quote or paraphrase specific sections, so long as you cite the original work, and attribute it correctly. This is what most of the lore wikis do, although I feel that a lot of them go a bit too far, and often have very long quotations which aren't properly attributed or identified as such.

When I write a scientific paper, I can quote sections or reproduce a figure from another paper in order to make my point. However the rules for doing that may not be completely transferable to making a website of quick reference warhammer rules. I'm sure I've read that game mechanics themselves can't be copywrited, only the presentation of those rules, but I'd think the games company wouldn't want anyone publishing their rules verbatim.