Rolling run and remaining stationary close combat?

[aosrulesbest]

We had a "small" discussion in our gaming group about a following rule issue:

1. Can you roll for a charge roll in close combat, but decide not to move and remain stationary, and still count as not having moved?

Our final outcome is something like this:

You can throw the run dice and then decide, not move your models (retreat) and instead you decide that you remain stationary. OR you can move 0" to the max allowed movement.

0" movement is always movement, which applies all the effects in the core rulebook (After a normal move, cannot end a move within 3" of enemy units etc.). 

IF you throw the dice roll for a run, it applies all the effects of running (can't shoot or charge later in the same turn etc.). But this does not mean, you cannot decide to remain stationary.

From our understanding, there is no rule that states, that you are forced to make the normal move after picking a unit to make a normal move (starting a normal move) and running for the dice roll.
Core rulebook: "Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat"..... "The unit can then move up to that distance in inches".

This is probably not the rule as intended (seems counter-intuitive) , but RAW seems to allow this. Any takes on this guys?

[JackStreicher]

imo, whenever the rules say „you can“, you can simply decide not to. In this case I rolled for a charge but decided not to charge at all, so I don‘t count has having moved.

If the rule says you „must“ or „have to move up to XY inches“ then you can chose to move 0“ but you‘d still count as having moved.

 

cheers!

=}

Edited December 1, 2020 by JackStreicher

[aosrulesbest]

Oopsie, sorries! 

I actually meant run roll, not a charge roll. My bad. Edited version of the question:

1. Can you roll for a run roll in close combat, but decide not to move and remain stationary, and still count as not having moved?

 

[The Mysterious Mr B]

If you haven't moved, you haven't moved.

Think of it this way: How many times did you fight? 0. Then you haven't fought. How many models died? 0. Then no models died. So how many inches did you move? 0. Then you haven't moved.

Edited December 1, 2020 by The Mysterious Mr B

[aosrulesbest]

5 minutes ago, The Mysterious Mr B said:

If you haven't moved, you haven't moved.

Think of it this way: How many times did you fight? 0. Then you haven't fought. How many models died? 0. Then no models died. So how many inches did you move? 0. Then you haven't moved.

So our interpretation is correct? In close combat you are able to roll for the run dice, and after that decide to remain stationary (thus keeping yourself in close combat - and not forcing you to retreat).

[The Mysterious Mr B]

I'm going to contradict my previous answer now because humans are fallible and we are capable of complex, situational thought. 😁

Technically the letter of the law states 'Thle unit can then move up to that distance in inches'. If you roll a 1 to run and decide to move 0, that is still 'up to' 1. You have already declared you are running so the run sequence has started and you have moved 'up to' whatever you rolled. So in that respect, you have 'run' a distance of 0". 

Note the word 'technically' and the phrase 'letter of the law'. If you're at a tournament, maybe stick to rules as written unless a judge says otherwise or the opponent is gracious enough to offer a take-back without you even asking.

However, in your original question you mentioned you were at your gaming group. Surely we have to allow ourselves a bit of relaxation within our local gaming groups, playing by the spirit of the law in a way that is still fair and fun. In combat, if a soldier says 'Let's leg it!' and then realises that his unit wouldn't be able to run as far as he was hoping and it would be better for them to keep fighting a bit longer, they'd just keep fighting and still be able to do anything they would have been able to do had he not said anything and the result was the same - they remain in combat. 

At a local club or game store, Wheaton's Law must surely be the most important rule for any player.

Edited December 1, 2020 by The Mysterious Mr B

[JPjr]

So is our interpretation is correct?

no of course its isn't!

assuming you're just a standard unit with no funky abilities then if you are within 3" of the enemy to start with you have exactly 2 normal movement options, remain stationary or retreat

if you retreat, you can run as well as your normal movement

but if you decide to make a move whilst within 3" of an enemy then you must end that move at least 3" away from an enemy

so if you announce that you're moving + on top of that running (which is neither here nor there really) then you can't just stay still and gain some advantage you must move away from the enemy units

now you could use your normal move to retreat more than 3" away from an enemy, roll a d6 for the run move and not use it, but you still have to have moved at least 3"s away, so you can't stay still

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by JPjr

[aosrulesbest]

59 minutes ago, JPjr said:

So is our interpretation is correct?

no of course its isn't!

assuming you're just a standard unit with no funky abilities then if you are within 3" of the enemy to start with you have exactly 2 normal movement options, remain stationary or retreat

if you retreat, you can run as well as your normal movement

but if you decide to make a move whilst within 3" of an enemy then you must end that move at least 3" away from an enemy

so if you announce that you're moving + on top of that running (which is neither here nor there really) then you can't just stay still and gain some advantage you must move away from the enemy units

now you could use your normal move to retreat more than 3" away from an enemy, roll a d6 for the run move and not use it, but you still have to have moved at least 3"s away, so you can't stay still

 

I would say it is (I hope it wasn't though). My argument:

The rules of running say "When you pick a unit to make a normal move, you can declare it will run". And rules of enemy units and retreats state "Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat".  I have not found any rules or official clarifications, that you would not be allowed (by RAW) to roll the run, and then decide afterwards, you are going to stay stationary. 

I'll try to explain it again: You "pick" a unit in close combat to make a normal move, and declare it will run. Roll the run roll. The unit is now starting a normal move within 3" of enemy. Then you decide, the unit is going to remain stationary and not to retreat. The unit has not now made a normal move (has not retreated), because it has remained stationary.  I understand your logic, and it is intuitive and the way it should be. But currently the rules are written so, that my argument seems to be valid from what I've researched. So you are able to roll the run roll, and still remain stationary.

This is confusing AF, and took me way too many hours looking into this. And my point isn't is this the right way to play when considering "The spirit of the game". My point is, is this RAW or not. I would not like this to be allowed (as it clearly is janky), so that is why I'm looking for a clear statement (raw/official clarification) this is wrong, but I have to admit I'm running out of ideas. 

I do still think, it's important to talk and discuss these kind of rules, which leave too much open. Discussing these will hopefully lead into more clear formatting of rules, and will help TO's to think these things through before a tournament to make their statements on the matter etc.

Edited December 1, 2020 by aosrulesbest

[Beliman]

I think that you can't:

1. You declare that your unit will retreat (you can remain stationary or retreat, your chose).
2. Then you throw a dice because you want to "run" in your retreat  (if you want), but then the rules states: "If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units."
3. So you must  move your unit  outside the 3" range.

That's my interpretation at least.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Beliman
I'm stupid /sadface

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, aosrulesbest said:

I would say it is (I hope it wasn't though). My argument:

The rules of running say "When you pick a unit to make a normal move, you can declare it will run". And rules of enemy units and retreats state "Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat".  I have not found any rules or official clarifications, that you would not be allowed (by RAW) to roll the run, and then decide afterwards, you are going to stay stationary. 

I'll try to explain it again: You "pick" a unit in close combat to make a normal move, and declare it will run. Roll the run roll. The unit is now starting a normal move within 3" of enemy. Then you decide, the unit is going to remain stationary and not to retreat. The unit has not now made a normal move (has not retreated), because it has remained stationary.  I understand your logic, and it is intuitive and the way it should be. But currently the rules are written so, that my argument seems to be valid from what I've researched. So you are able to roll the run roll, and still remain stationary.

This is confusing AF, and took me way too many hours looking into this. And my point isn't is this the right way to play when considering "The spirit of the game". My point is, is this RAW or not. I would not like this to be allowed (as it clearly is janky), so that is why I'm looking for a clear statement (raw/official clarification) this is wrong, but I have to admit I'm running out of ideas. 

I do still think, it's important to talk and discuss these kind of rules, which leave too much open. Discussing these will hopefully lead into more clear formatting of rules, and will help TO's to think these things through before a tournament to make their statements on the matter etc.

It's a surprisingly tricky question and shows that GW would benefit from more careful rules writing. I had originally come to the same conclusion, but now believe it to be wrong. Here's why:

I think there are two ways you can cash out "not having moved" or "remaining stationary". It could either mean that you don't activate the unit to move, or it could mean that you move every model in that unit 0". In the first case, you could not remain stationary and run at the same time, because running requires that you activate the unit to move. In the second case, you would be able to run and remain stationary at the same time.

So we have to decide which of these two alternatives is correct. I would say it is the first one. I think so because otherwise the rules of retreating don't make sense as written:
 

Quote

 

ENEMY UNITS AND RETREATS

When you make a normal move for a model, no part of the move can be within 3" of an enemy unit.

Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat. If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units.

 

If "remaining stationary" was a normal move, then you would have to finish it outside of 3" of enemy units, as per part one of the rule. That's obviously not possible. That's why I would have to conclude that it is not one. Instead, we have to conclude that the part about "starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit" in the quote above has to refer to the moment in which you can decide to activate the unit for movement or not. And then your two choices would be to not activate the unit (remain stationary) or activate it and retreat (with all that entails, such as the possibility of running).

I believe there is also one more state you could find yourself in: Activating a unit, retreating, and then failing to retreat. This could happen if you retreat, but need a run roll over a certain number to make a legal move (maybe the unit is blocked by enemies or terrain).  Since you can't be required to make an illegal move, you'll have to remain in combat in that case. I would treat that case as still having moved, though, because the unit was activated.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Neil Arthur Hotep
clarity

[Nostrammo]

In order to start the retreat/normal/run move when engaged in close combat you must be WITHIN 3"...

But the moment you start the retreat move you must end your movement BEYOND 3"...

So not moving is not actually an option ...

[Planar]

So if 0in does not count as a move, what if you move 0,0000001in instead? Does this count as a move? 😎 

[Kramer]

23 hours ago, aosrulesbest said:

Oopsie, sorries! 

I actually meant run roll, not a charge roll. My bad. Edited version of the question:

1. Can you roll for a run roll in close combat, but decide not to move and remain stationary, and still count as not having moved?

 

To simplify it: 
Step 1. You get to make the choice of remaining stationary or retreating because you are within 3”. 

Step 2. You choose to retreat now you must move to end up outside 3”. 

step 3. You decide if you also want to run as part of your move. 

But the obligation to end up outside 3” remains. as the choice to retreat comes before the choice to run.

 

(Slightly separate thoughts but that have some bearing on this:

1. During the move phase I can’t ‘go back’ on my choice either. I can’t choose to run, but if my roll isn’t high enough decide I’m just normal moving.

2. The only tricky bit is if you need a certain roll on your run during  a retreat to get outside of 3”. What if you don’t ro high enough? I would argue that’s the only case you can’t actually retreat and remain stationary after your choice because you can’t follow the requirement of getting outside of 3”)

 

 

[aosrulesbest]

20 minutes ago, Kramer said:

To simplify it: 
Step 1. You get to make the choice of remaining stationary or retreating because you are within 3”. 

Step 2. You choose to retreat now you must move to end up outside 3”. 

step 3. You decide if you also want to run as part of your move. 

But the obligation to end up outside 3” remains. as the choice to retreat comes before the choice to run.

 

(Slightly separate thoughts but that have some bearing on this:

1. During the move phase I can’t ‘go back’ on my choice either. I can’t choose to run, but if my roll isn’t high enough decide I’m just normal moving.

2. The only tricky bit is if you need a certain roll on your run during  a retreat to get outside of 3”. What if you don’t ro high enough? I would argue that’s the only case you can’t actually retreat and remain stationary after your choice because you can’t follow the requirement of getting outside of 3”)

 

 

I do understand this sequence of thought! And it is intuitive (And what I'd like to think is the intent, though intent does not matter when discussing about RAW). That there is the first step (1.) that you choose between remaining stationary and retreating. After you've chosen your "step", you go accordingly to your thought process. The problem is, that by the RAW this isn't the only interpretation on the order.

You make the run roll when you pick a unit to make a normal move. BUT when "starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy" you can either remain stationary (stationary is not a normal move) or retreat (this is a normal move).

So this interpretation is also correct (by raw)

1. You pick a unit in close combat to make a normal move and declare it will run (Running rules)

2. You are now starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy. You  can either remain stationary or retreat (Enemy units and retreats rules)

3. You decide to remain stationary (remaining stationary is not normal movement) OR you retreat (retreat is a normal move) (Enemy units and retreats rules)

(4. You decide to move your models 0", this counts as a normal move - Illegal when in close combat, as you have to be more than 3" from enemies after a normal move, retreat, in close combat)

What underlines this problem more, is this 

19 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I believe there is also one more state you could find yourself in: Activating a unit, retreating, and then failing to retreat. This could happen if you retreat, but need a run roll over a certain number to make a legal move (maybe the unit is blocked by enemies or terrain).  Since you can't be required to make an illegal move, you'll have to remain in combat in that case. I would treat that case as still having moved, though, because the unit was activated.

As if the unit counts as moved, when remaining stationary, it would conflict with the rules of retreat (If a unit retreats, it must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units). Thus, I'd argue, it is possible to roll for the run roll, and decide to remain stationary. 

I think though, both interpretations are "correct" in their own way. Which is stupid/confusing/conflicting, and should not be like that. There is nothing  in RAW that completely shuts out the possibility of making the run roll and deciding to remain stationary. It comes down to semantics and interpretation on the sequence or combining the interpretation of rules regarding this exact situation (rolling for run and remaining stationary) to other rules that are not really discussing this situation (random movement, move phase generally), which is not water proof way of discussing RAW as it relies on interpretation of intent and not on exact wording of the rules.

[Kramer]

14 minutes ago, aosrulesbest said:

do understand this sequence of thought! And it is intuitive (And what I'd like to think is the intent, though intent does not matter when discussing about RAW). That there is the first step (1.) that you choose between remaining stationary and retreating. After you've chosen your "step", you go accordingly to your thought process. The problem is, that by the RAW this isn't the only interpretation on the order.

You make the run roll when you pick a unit to make a normal move. BUT when "starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy" you can either remain stationary (stationary is not a normal move) or retreat (this is a normal move).

So this interpretation is also correct (by raw)

1. You pick a unit in close combat to make a normal move and declare it will run (Running rules)

2. You are now starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy. You  can either remain stationary or retreat (Enemy units and retreats rules)

3. You decide to remain stationary (remaining stationary is not normal movement) OR you retreat (retreat is a normal move) (Enemy units and retreats rules)

(4. You decide to move your models 0", this counts as a normal move - Illegal when in close combat, as you have to be more than 3" from enemies after a normal move, retreat, in close combat)

What underlines this problem more, is this 

 

No, if i'm honest. Just no. 

It's not RAW vs RAI. You are adding layers that arent there. The whole 'going upstream' with rules questions doesn't work if you add things that aren't there. 

If you want to discuss this RAW, then you need to support your step 4. You decide to move 0" but it's an 'illegal move', your words. How can that be a choice? Also how can that be a rule? Do we now need to find a passage that says you can't do illegal moves?

Also in step 2 and 3 you rightly state that you need to decide between stationary or a retreat. quote underneath for clarity.

 Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat. If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units.

But you skip that its a binary choice. When you choose retreat it comes with a restriction (ending outside of 3") and an option (to run). 
The moment you choose retreat, and gain acces to the run, you also gain the limitation. 

RAW there is no way you can get the run without the limitation. 
 

You are interpreting that a 0" move is the same as remaining stationary. In game terms that RAI. (and in my opinion als RAI wrong but that's besides the point). 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Planar said:

So if 0in does not count as a move, what if you move 0,0000001in instead? Does this count as a move? 😎 

Yes, but it is not a workaround for anything as far as the scenario that is being discussed goes. The advantage you get from remaining stationary being a normal move would be that you could roll to run when in combat, see if your roll is high enough to give you an advantage in positioning and if not you could just stay in combat like nothing happened. You gain a bit of information (the die roll's result) here without having to commit to a retreat. If you tried to pull the same thing and move an infinitesimal amount, you'd still definitely have to follow the general retreat rules: That is, you'd have to move outside of 3" of any enemy units. You could not just stay in combat.

 

1 hour ago, aosrulesbest said:

You make the run roll when you pick a unit to make a normal move. BUT when "starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy" you can either remain stationary (stationary is not a normal move) or retreat (this is a normal move).

I want to just quickly say that I disagree here. I don't believe that you can have your cake and eat it in this case: Either "remain stationary" is a normal move and you get to run as part of it, or it is not a normal move and you don't. I don't think the option to run as part of something that is not a normal move is available. And that includes the scenario described above, where you start your normal move, declare run and then remain stationary (but without this being a normal move). I think the rules on running are clear here: You can only declare to run on a normal move.

 

1 hour ago, aosrulesbest said:

I think though, both interpretations are "correct" in their own way. Which is stupid/confusing/conflicting, and should not be like that. There is nothing  in RAW that completely shuts out the possibility of making the run roll and deciding to remain stationary. It comes down to semantics and interpretation on the sequence or combining the interpretation of rules regarding this exact situation (rolling for run and remaining stationary) to other rules that are not really discussing this situation (random movement, move phase generally), which is not water proof way of discussing RAW as it relies on interpretation of intent and not on exact wording of the rules.

 

The writing is definitely unclear here. It's fairly bad, even: If the rules for retreat just said "You can either choose not to move a unit when it is within 3" of an enemy unit or retreat", we would not be having this conversation.

But I disagree that the matter is up for interpretation. It's just complicated. As I see it, there are only two defensible options: The whole "start to move in combat" complex is a normal move, and you can declare a run as part of it, or only retreating is actually a normal move and "remain stationary" is not a move at all. I believe that the first option is contradictory with the sentence immediately before it:

"When you make a normal move for a model, no part of the move can be within 3" of an enemy unit."

The only exception to this rules is retreating, sp specifically not the "start to move" complex. If "start to move" with it's two options of retreat or remain stationary was a normal move, whatever choice you make would always be subject to the above rule. So you would be required to end your move outside of 3" of enemy units when you remain stationary. I take that to be a contradiction and that we should reject the option that remaining stationary is a normal move in favour of the one that it's not a move at all, with everything that entails. Because only the latter option is logically consistent.

Now for the further complication: Attempting to retreat, but failing. Ordinarily, this is not a problem. If you are straight up unable to move anywhere if you wanted to retreat, we could just say that you never had the option to make a move in the first place and must not attempt to retreat, because it would be an illegal move.

But in the case where there is a chance to retreat, but it depens on the result of your run roll, that's not the case. You should be allowed to try to retreat. In this case, what happens if you don't make your die roll? Like, if you need a 6 but roll a 1? The answer to this is not found in the rules, as far as I can tell. I would say that the sequence of play goes like this.

1. Activate to move the unit. This means you count as having moved.

2. Roll to run, fail the dice roll.

3. You have no place to retreat. Thus you fail to retreat and cannot move the unit.

So why do I think that in this case, you get to stay in combat even though that contradicts the rules for retreating? Simply put, because it's part of the logic of "must" that it implies "can". You can't be forced to follow a rule that is impossible for you to follow. This is not from the rules of AoS, it's a general characteristic from the logic of obligation that I am using here. I also believe, though, that your only option is to leave your models where they are, since any movement to a different position would be illegal. Since if you can't legally move, the only other option is to remain stationary, that's what you will have to default to.

I think an argument could be made that if you fail to move, you don't count as having moved. I'd not be against this. It's a logically available option, but it would require "undoing" your activation to move and returning to an earlier game state which I don't think is ever done in AoS. I see this scenario as a genuine rules bug, where there is a chance that you have not option but to break a rule somewhere when you get yourself into this state.

[aosrulesbest]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

 

It's not RAW vs RAI. You are adding layers that arent there. The whole 'going upstream' with rules questions doesn't work if you add things that aren't there. 

 

What layers I'm adding? I'm only discussing on things that are there and I reference the exact rules. Going upstream doesn't answer this question explicitly.

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

 

If you want to discuss this RAW, then you need to support your step 4. You decide to move 0" but it's an 'illegal move', your words. How can that be a choice? Also how can that be a rule? Do we now need to find a passage that says you can't do illegal moves?

 

I think you've totally misunderstood my point.. The core rulebook FAQ states the following " Q: Sometimes an ability is used after a model moves. When this is the case, assuming the model is allowed to make a move, if I decide to leave it stationary, can I still use the ability? A: Yes. For the purposes of the Age of Sigmar rules, if a model is allowed to move, you can choose to ‘move’ it 0 inches. " - This separates that leaving a unit "stationary" and moving "0" as two different things. And like I said, moving 0" is illegal when the unit is on close combat, as it is not allowed to remain within 3" of an enemy when it has made a normal move (so it is not a choice that can be made). Leaving a unit stationary is a choice that can be made.  

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

 

You are interpreting that a 0" move is the same as remaining stationary. In game terms that RAI. (and in my opinion als RAI wrong but that's besides the point). 

 

No I'm not. Please re-read my points and explanations.

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

Also in step 2 and 3 you rightly state that you need to decide between stationary or a retreat. quote underneath for clarity.

 Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat. If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units.

But you skip that its a binary choice. When you choose retreat it comes with a restriction (ending outside of 3") and an option (to run). 
The moment you choose retreat, and gain acces to the run, you also gain the limitation. 

The binary choice can be made after rolling for the run roll. "When you pick a unit to make a normal move" is the moment when you make a run roll, correct? What creates this conflict is, that "Units STARTING A NORMAL MOVE within...... can EITHER remain STATIONARY or RETREAT" - So when you "pick a unit" to make a normal move, is that the moment when you are "starting a normal move" ?  We don't know the sequence for starting a normal move, does it come at first, which would indicate you have to make that binary choice between running or staying stationary, or is starting a normal move after you have picked a unit to make a normal move (which enables running). I hope this answered you. From my understanding (and I'm still yet to hear something that rules this interpretation out by RAW) it is possible to go both ways. Comes down to interpretation of semantics. It's difficult to get around, and English isn't my main language, so I hope I explained it clearly enough this time around.

Edited December 2, 2020 by aosrulesbest

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

57 minutes ago, aosrulesbest said:

 We don't know the sequence for starting a normal move, does it come at first, which would indicate you have to make that binary choice between running or staying stationary, or is starting a normal move after you have picked a unit to make a normal move (which enables running). I hope this answered you. From my understanding (and I'm still yet to hear something that rules this interpretation out by RAW) it is possible to go both ways. Comes down to interpretation of semantics. It's difficult to get around, and English isn't my main language, so I hope I explained it clearly enough this time around.

I want to emphasize that I believe running and remaining stationary is ruled out by RAW. I have laid out my reasons for this above, but once more for completeness:

You can decide to run when you "pick a unit to make a normal move" as per the core rules. So does "starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit" refer to this? If it does, you would have the option to run at that time. But it does not, because if it did, then "remaining stationary" would be a normal move. And if it was a normal move, you would not be allowed to end within 3" of an enemy unit after you perform it. But since that's impossible, "remain stationary" can't be a normal move, and "starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit" can't be the same as "picking a unit to make a normal move". Thus, "remaining stationary" must be not picking a unit to make a normal move, and declaring retreat is the actual point where you "pick a unit to make a normal move", and this is the point at which you can choose to run.

I believe this is RAW and not RAI, since due to the vague writing we are presented with two possibilities, but it turns out only one is consistent after closer inspection. It's not a case of "This is what it says, but this is what I believe it was supposed to say". It's "What it says presents us with two defensible readings, but only one actually works".

[Gaz Taylor]

@aosrulesbest I’m curious how this question came up? Was it a hypothetical discussion or something somebody tried to argue?