The Executioner thing. Again.

[dekay]

Executioners are bad, right? We say they are bad every time the subject of our elite infantry pops up. But in some of the earlier discussions someone actually recalculated their performance in comparison to Black Guard and... and well. They turned out to not be so bad at all...

So, seeing another question about them I thought it would be well to resolve this matter once and for all.

So. Executioners versus Black guard. How to they compare?

Identical movement, armour,  number of attacks, to hit, to wound, damage. Access to the same leader, banner and musician upgrades. Same subfaction keywords. So far, so good.

Differences:

Executioners bravery 7(8) vs black guard 8(9). High in both, but BG are slightly better.

Weapon range 1 on Ex vs 2 on BG. This is big. Large unit of BG will have no problem attacking with every model, executioners need to consider placement very carefully.

Rend 0 on Ex.  Rend 1 on BG.

Ex turn every 6 to hit into a mortal wound (sequence ending), BG get +1 to hit if wholly within 12 to a friendly sorceress.

And, the last important factor: Black guard cost 140 pts, with no discount, so 420 for full unit. Executioners cost 130, with discount 330 for a full unit. 

 

Considerations: We can't look at any of those units in isolation. Especially because of the fact that it's extremely easy to make executioners hit on 2+, as you're probably taking that sorceress anyway. Both units have a wide range of buffs availible to them. It's very easy to make them re-roll 1's to hit. Either a command point or Azyros will do.

Dragon Sorceress can give both re-rolls 1's to wound, too. Black Guard like it more, because Executioners skip wounding in some of their attacks altogether. 

Important thing to consider too- apart from fringe situations, Black Guard can't be further buffed by hurricanum, while Executioners can.

 

Let's optimistically assume that we manage to get all 30 of both into combat. It takes some work for executioners, but it's doable. Also, if we do consider losses, every dead executioner makes getting entire unit into combat easier, while black guard have it easy from the start with their longer range.

The results are... surprising, after repeating for quite some time, that Executioners are bad. Because they aren't.

So, the results (keep in mind 'azyros' effect can also be achieved by spending a CP on the generic command ability):

Regardless of buff combination, two things are consistent:

1. Black Guard are, yes, better against anything with save 4+ or worse.

2. Executioners are consistently better against anything with 2+ or 3+ save.

3. When we consider wounds-per-point, Executioners seem to be better in many other matchups too..? I mean, they are 90 points cheaper. That's a Sorceress. Executioners with a sorceress cost as much as black guard without one.

Additionally, effects of Inspire Hatred on executioners are a bit underwhelming on Executioners, so I'm not counting it. They don't need dragon sorceress. She helps a bit, and keeps up with them easier, but she's not necessary....

But wait! There's more! 

What if we change the target to.. say... re-roll their saves and get 6+ negate wound? Like, say, Mortek Guard are?

Against Morteks, who are  a current 'how do we kill this' thing... Executioners generally outperform Black guard, even if BG are fully buffed. Plus, remember, Executioners are *much* cheaper.

Let me reiterate that:

Against Mortek Guard, Black Guard, fully buffed by a 300 point character for a CP, fare worse than Executioners with re-roll 1's to hit as their only buff. And they can get even better if we drop a hurricanum on them. in Tempest's Eye they can, properly buffed, if their Hurricanum manages to get Aura of Glory running, they can make a 30' first turn charge and then blend through 20 Morteks in one go.

So... why do we think these are bad, exactly? It seems like a perfectly usable unit, especially in heavy armoured meta. I'm not saying they are suddenly great. Getting them all to fight is harder, they still need some support structure and so on but... Maybe we should stop telling people not to use them? They may yet surprise us.

 

[Sethiris]

Quote

Weapon range 1 on Ex vs 2 on BG. This is big. Large unit of BG will have no problem attacking with every model, executioners need to consider placement very carefully.

That is exactly the reason. Needing to get 15 models in base-to-base is easier said than done, especially if fighting a more elite unit or monster. The 2 inch range means that the black guard only need 10 models in base contact to have full reach. That's 2/3  of the space needed for the same number of models (slighly less considering that it also increases sideways reach)

If they had a 2 inch range, I would definitely consider using my 60 Executioners who spend their days gathering dust on my shelf. Now they simply fall a bit short.. For MW, you're often better off using Greatswords or Hammerers. Hammerers are just one more point per model and have -1 rend. Sure, they do MW on wound rolls rather than hit rolls, but Executioners have been nerfed quite a lot. I used to run them with a Hurricanum, causing 2 MW on a 5+. A unit of 30 did a total of 50 MW in one attack for me once, average would be about 40MW if all 30 got in. Now the  average is about 10MW if all 30 get in. The non-rend attacks hardly do much unless fighting stuff with very low saves.

I suppose they work for a more casual setting, but in competitive play, they just aren't worth their points. Just giving them rend or atleast 2" range would go a long way towards making them viable.

But, just because you took the time to make this post, I will give them a go next time I play.  

[dekay]

As for greatswords and hammerers and why I didn't take them into consideration - yeah they are both superior, but I feel their role is different. What singles out darkling infantry is their potentially huge threat range. As a counter charge unit or a defense line, disposessed and freeguild win here, but executioners and black guard both have an unique advantage in form of run and charge skill availible. And we have multiple methods to increase both run and charge range.

If I wanted to use those defensively, I'd take something else, but up to 30'' threat range is potentially important.

And as for the range issue - I agree that when attacking a monster 1'' range is going to hurt them, but what made me think was precisely a fact that Morteks are a thing. As in, dead hard, but still horde.

I'm not saying Executioners are the best, all of a sudden, but I'm no longer certain we were right about dismissing them completely.

 

I think now it looks like this:

Phoenix Guard - extreme durability, god hitting power, probably our best elite infantry option overall

Black Guard - huge threat range and hitting power, situationally better than phoenix guard if you want to cross the table quickly.

Executioners - huge threat range, low price, equipped to deal with very heavy armour.

Hammerers - slow, immune to battleshock, kinda cheap, strong, access to disposessed buffs

Greatswords - slow, possibly the best hitting power out of all if kept completely static.  Sort of hammerers but better and more expensive.

Wildwood Rangers.... uuh, ok, those ARE problematic. If you don't REALLY want Living City battalion and know you go against monster heavy army, the others are probably better. They are on the cheaper side at least.

 

Executioners look more situational than out more popular options, but not *bad*. Plus, they are the cheapest of the bunch.

[Crashnarf]

I think that maybe you’ve forgotten the ironbreakers. They are cheap, they don’t hit hard but they are pretty solides. Also you can buff them with prayers. If you want to hold objectives and ground : they are very good. Also, they have a good horde discount 

[dekay]

5 hours ago, Crashnarf said:

I think that maybe you’ve forgotten the ironbreakers. They are cheap, they don’t hit hard but they are pretty solides. Also you can buff them with prayers. If you want to hold objectives and ground : they are very good. Also, they have a good horde discount 

Oh, I didn't forget about them. And they are a pretty good unit. But I see them as a different category, where they sit together with Eternal Guard - pure tanks, hard but lacking offensively compared to properly hitty units.

[swarmofseals]

I did the numbers when CoS first came out and fully expected Executioners to be terrible, but they are pretty close to equivalent with the other elite infantry options. They are probably the worst choice, but the margin is relatively small.

The problem is more that elite offensive infantry is, in general, not very good in AoS. All of the highly competitive elite infantry warscrolls are either also defensively efficient or have special rules which improve their speed well above infantry levels -- Hearthguard Berzerkers, Witch Aelves, and Ardboys are all good examples.

[Myrdin]

In regards to what swarm said, wouldn't they be a decent MSU unit ?

I know  the bulk discount is amazing, but they do a look a lot like Bestigors to me. Essentially a relatively cheap hard hitting unit with good speed that you fling forward  to either do preliminary damage before real combat is joined, or essentially as assassins. Clearing chaff, heroes and other small units, while also posing much bigger threat than regular chaff.... because this army doesn't really have anything I personally would consider as such. The few cheap units we have are not fast enough, and Dark Riders seem like the best option, but thats 110 points so not really a chaff at that point either.

 

I mean I dont dislike the executioners as much as many (though I dont dislike the Corsairs either.... so the problem might be me lol  ) mostly because I am used to Bestigors. The way I look at them is pretty much just a different source of MW in an army that has plenty of that. Nothing amazing, but nothing horrible either (granted I do dislike the fact the MV ends their attack sequence, thats a bit lame). The way I see them is pretty much MSU against certain armies and targets where Rend -1 is inconsequential, as it either doesn't do anything or its not enough to do anything. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Myrdin

[swarmofseals]

10 hours ago, Myrdin said:

In regards to what swarm said, wouldn't they be a decent MSU unit ?

Although there are some exceptions, MSU is generally a poor strategy in AoS. There are several reasons for this, but the most important are activation efficiency, buff efficiency, and drop efficiency.

Activation Efficiency

Spoiler

For melee units, activation efficiency is a big deal, and small units are very inefficient. Because of the "I go you go" nature of melee in AoS, there is a huge diminishing return for having greater numbers of combat activations for the attacker. Your first activation strikes before the opponent, and any damage that you do with that activation will reduce the incoming damage you receive on the return. Your next activation is much worse because your opponent will get a chance to go before you and the damage that they do will reduce your damage output for your next activation.  So ideally you want to do as much damage as possible with a single activation and give your opponent as little chance to return fire as possible. I'll illustrate this with a couple of simple examples:

Consider a situation where you and your opponent each have 20 models with 1 wound each. Each model will deal an average of .5 wounds of damage (after all saves) per activation.

Scenario 1: You charge with 20 models against their 20 models. You strike first with 20 guys and kill 10. Your opponent now strikes back with the remaining 10 and kills 5. Result: you are 5 wounds ahead of your opponent.

Scenario 2: You charge with 2 units of 10 models against their 20 models. You strike first with 10 guys and kill 5. Your opponent strikes back with 15 against your unactivated unit and kills 7.5. You now strike back with your remaining 2.5 and kill an additional 1.25. Result: your opponent is actually ahead by 1.25 wounds!

Scenario 3: you charge with 2 units of 10 models against their 2 units of 10 models each. You strike first with 10 guys and kill 5. Your opponent strikes your unactivated unit with his fresh unit of 10 and kills 5. Now you strike back with your unit of 5 and kill 2.5, and your opponent then does the same. In the end you are dead even with each side having 12.5 models remaining.

The only situation in which the attack is actually profitable to you is the first scenario, and that is because you have the most efficient activation.

 

Buff Efficiency

Spoiler

This one is a lot simpler. Many buffs in AoS target only a single unit, so you get more out of buffing a larger target than a smaller one.  Occasionally it can be difficult to fit a large unit into the area of effect for a "wholly within" buff, but this is relatively rarer.

Drop Efficiency

Spoiler

I generally think that the importance of being low drop is slightly overstated by some, but it's vastly underestimated by most. Choosing to go first or second is a big deal. Therefore most of the time you really want to avoid unnecessarily bloating your drop count, and MSU is probably the fastest way to increase your drops. Every drop you add to your list should have some clear reason to exist over a choice that keeps the drop count lower. 

Now that's not to say that there is never a reason to take small units. Sometimes you have to include a unit due to mandated requirements, and in these cases it can be good to keep it as small as possible if it's otherwise undesirable. Small units can also be helpful for contesting objectives away from the focal point of the battle in that they allow you to cover ground without taking too much power away from your main area of focus. But in this case you really want your small units to be fast so that they can be where they need to be as soon as possible. 

Ranged units are actually a bit more activation efficient in small units, although the problems with buff efficiency and drop efficiency remain. Ranged units all attack in sequence, so reducing your activations doesn't give you any benefit similar to the benefit that melee units get from activation efficiency. Instead, being able to attack with multiple small ranged units gives you a bit more information as you allocate your attacks, which allows your to allocate them more efficiently. If you have 30 shooters in one unit you have to guess at splitting up their fire which makes you vulnerable to wasted shots or failing to kill a key target due to poorer than average luck. With 3 units of 10, you can wait and see how well each set of 10 shots does before dividing up the next which reduces the likelihood of either waste or failure. There's also often a marginal benefit from having more champions.

The final main role that is filled well by MSU are screens, which you generally want to be as cheap and defensively efficient as possible with speed also being a nice benefit. Offensive efficiency is just about the least important thing for a screen.

So in sum, if a unit isn't ranged, fast, or cheap it probably isn't good in a MSU setup. 

[Kramer]

On 1/6/2020 at 10:56 PM, dekay said:

So... why do we think these are bad, exactly? It seems like a perfectly usable unit, especially in heavy armoured meta. I'm not saying they are suddenly great. Getting them all to fight is harder, they still need some support structure and so on but... Maybe we should stop telling people not to use them? They may yet surprise us.

They’re my biggest disappointment as well so I’ll throw my two cents in. 
the black guard comparison isn’t that relevant to me because you take them for the mortal wounds imo. 
It’s the comparison with hammerers and greatswords. 
hurricanum & aura of glory do make them better but That also goes for the other elite options. 
could you do the comparison with them as in depth as you did here? 
because I’m thinking they will lose. 
the only (command) ability that specifically improves executioners is run and charge by the sorceress. While the hammerers get another attack from the king, extra rend from the runesmith. Greatswords have in build +1 to hit, rousing battle cry, stand your ground. 
so pro’s and con’s there. But you take all three of them for the damage they do as their role to play in the battle. And I’m hard pressed to say executioners beat Hammerers or greatswords. 

and of course the narrative reason that annoys me... they should be better than greatswords at killing. An elven lifetime devoted to slaughter vs a veteran with a wavy sword and a bigger feather. Just doesn’t feel right that the executioners Super efficient killing strikes stop but the heavy handed blows from their human counterparts keep going. 

[dekay]

15 hours ago, Kramer said:

It’s the comparison with hammerers and greatswords. 
hurricanum & aura of glory do make them better but That also goes for the other elite options. 
could you do the comparison with them as in depth as you did here? 
because I’m thinking they will lose. 

Oh yes they will. Both hammerers and greatswords are hugely superior, up to the point where there's no real reason to do a proper analysis. But, for sheer hilarity of it, behold, fully buffed versions of all 3:

(hammerers are insane, by the way. I'll consider getting some :D)

There's one key difference in all this, though. This one saving grace for poor executioners. Let's talk threat ranges.

If we maximise it, giving all the buffs CoS have availible, it looks like this:

Hammerers: 4 (move)+3 (Tempest's Eye) + 12 charge +1 to charge (musician) +1 to charge (Tempest's Eye command trait) +2 (Wildform) = 23

Greatswords: 5 (move)+3 (Tempest's Eye) + 12 charge +1 to charge (musician) +1 to charge (Tempest's Eye command trait) +2 (Wildform) = 24

Executioners: 6 (move)+3 (Tempest's Eye) + 6 run (Command underlings)  + 1 (Tempest's Eye run bonus)+ 1 (musician run bonus) + 2 (Wildform run bonus) + 12 charge +1 to charge (musician) +1 to charge (Tempest's Eye command trait) +2 (Wildform) = 35

In most battleplans, armies start more than 24 from each other. So if we do comparison of potential damage done with 1st turn charge, unless some insane charge roll + chronomantic cogs come into play, it goes more or less like this (excuse the joke chart ;))

I mean, in this departament Executioners clearly fare better

[Rune]

Warden King, Runelord and 30 Hammerers added to the basket. That is nuts.

[dekay]

Oh, also, i missed one more hammerer buff! They can get rerolls of 1s to wound from longbeards, too. They actually hit even harder! 

[Double Misfire]

4 hours ago, dekay said:

Oh, also, i missed one more hammerer buff! They can get rerolls of 1s to wound from longbeards, too. They actually hit even harder! 

But Longbeards are such overpointed garbage. Who in the world would take them?! 😬😉

[Rune]

On 1/9/2020 at 9:18 PM, dekay said:

Oh, also, i missed one more hammerer buff! They can get rerolls of 1s to wound from longbeards, too. They actually hit even harder! 

Add aura of glory to that as well!

[Satyrical Sophist]

17 hours ago, Rune said:

Add aura of glory to that as well!

Probably being dumb, but what is forge fire?

Edited January 12, 2020 by Satyrical Sophist
Mistyped

[Kramer]

3 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Probably being dumb, but what is forge fire?

Definitely not dumb. But it’s the name of the runelords ability. 

 

On 1/9/2020 at 3:36 PM, Rune said:

Warden King, Runelord and 30 Hammerers added to the basket. That is nuts.

They are definitely very good. Small bases as well so you can get more in  

[dekay]

On 1/11/2020 at 12:13 PM, Rune said:

Add aura of glory to that as well!

So, regardless of the original upropse of this thread, we've arrived to the conclusion Hammerers are crazy good damage dealers and with proper support they can for instance, delete 40 strong mortek horde in one go (actually, they can do that even after losing up to 7 models prior). This important strategic information will be catalogued for later use.

[Maddpainting]

Ok, but is 1000pts really worth to play/buff 1 30man unit?

[Satyrical Sophist]

4 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Ok, but is 1000pts really worth to play/buff 1 30man unit?

Other than the warden king and maybe the runelord it's not anything you wouldn't be tempted to take already.

[dekay]

19 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Ok, but is 1000pts really worth to play/buff 1 30man unit?

In itself, no. But  Hurricanum and Azyros are both universal, non-terget buffs that are useful for other elements of the force too. And if we build a duardin-heavy force, so is runelord. I mean, you're right that it's a very heavy investment, but it might be worth doing some list building to see if it's a viable thing. Don't have enough dwarfs myself, yet, sadly.

[Maddpainting]

No i understand that, but my point is you cant relay on 1000pts of set up for 1 unit to work over and over again, i'm a huge believe in units needs to stand alone at the same time works with buffs, so i like looking at unbuffed and not just max buffed all the time.

[Debello90]

Executioners, Steam Tank, Drakenspawn Knights and Hellblaster are simple bad warscrolls, it takes too many buffs to make them decent and it's not worth it.

[Rune]

9 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

No i understand that, but my point is you cant relay on 1000pts of set up for 1 unit to work over and over again, i'm a huge believe in units needs to stand alone at the same time works with buffs, so i like looking at unbuffed and not just max buffed all the time.

Even though the intention of the post was of a fun one I just disagree with how you are looking at this. It's okay to not be a fan of it, but being reliant on synergies doesn't make a list bad.

This has a huge upside to get off, and isn't required for all the buffs to get through to make an impact. And besides it's not crazy to have a section of your army costing 1000points. While nearly half of those points still benefit your shooting or whatever you use alongside. 

It might not work though, just because of the lack of mobility that dwarves have, and because the unit dealing damage is only 30 wounds on a 4+ with no aftersave. It's too squishy and will die to a counter charge or mortal wounds. TE helps a bit though. Perhaps you'd need to run another unit of Hammerers. 

But anyway, it was just a fun way to pump up some stats

Now we just need to write a list..

 

 

 

 

[Maddpainting]

I'm just saying i don't like to look at 1 unit vs 1 unit with ONLY max buffs, you wont have 1000pts of buffs all the time, maybe the first hit, but what about the other units in your army? Sometimes you need to split off those heroes to help a flank, or an objective, etc..

Also how reliably are those buffs? The Hurricanum is Models within 10" not units, after playng with 2 of them for many games, 3 random wounds to it and its now 8" aura, 1 endless spell can do that. The aura on it is very hard to fit a 30 block in it and in a position that wont jeopardize it from counter attacks.

So is there a unit with the same buffs that maybe not hit as hard but can be more viable? better protection, better movement, easier to gain those buffs, etc... sometimes raw damage isn't the only thing to look at.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Maddpainting
Spelling

[Myrdin]

12 hours ago, Rune said:

It might not work though, just because of the lack of mobility that dwarves have, and because the unit dealing damage is only 30 wounds on a 4+ with no aftersave. It's too squishy and will die to a counter charge or mortal wounds. TE helps a bit though. Perhaps you'd need to run another unit of Hammerers. 

I think the endless spell might be a partial answer to that.

Our Emerald Lifeswarm is always empowered and fairly easy to get off since the setup for these guys already includes a Hurricanum, and with it, resurrecting the fallen units would be a viable partial solution unless the unit got completely wiped off the board or heavily neutered  in a single turn. Using the bridge is another spell that seems as a valid choice, as against shooting armies you would be able to get them right up to their face, or to the backline, thus completely skipping good 2 turns of foot slogging and getting picked by pieces by enemy range combatants.

And since we are talking spells, an Hysh Battlemage with Pha`s Protection. Universally  reducing To Hit rate against this unit by -1 would go a long way when combined with the Swarm for resurrecting.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Myrdin