Wraith Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) Ok, so some lists after that discussion. First, a general purpose list. I know that the run and charge is doubled up from Slannesh mark and damned legion ability, but I think it is worth getting all mounted to run and charge and get the +1" to run and charge s well. It has two ways to get the 3D6"charge. Three options to clear screens, Bray Shaman's warscroll spell, shooting from the Ungor Raiders and Marauder Horse, and the endless spell. I based selections on what models I have available. Empty Throne 2000pt -1 drop Leaders Chaos Lord on Karkadrak - General, arcane tome, master of magic -220pt Chaos Socerer - Demonic Speed -120pt Great Bray Shaman - Leviate -100pt Battleline Chaos Knights (reinforced) , slannesh, +1 attack banner -460pt Chaos Chosen (reinforced), nurgle -480pt Marauder Horse , slannesh, javelins -105pt Marauder Horse , slannesh, javelins -105pt Other Ungor Raiders (reinforced) -160pt Behemoths Chaos Warshine , slannesh, curse -185pt Endless Spells Gnashing Jaws -60pt Battalion Battle Regiment TOTAL - 1995pt Attempt at Ror's doctrine. The idea of minimal heroes is points efficient. I don't yet have enough warriors to pull it off, so mine would look like this: Host of Everchosen 2000pt - 1 drop Leaders Chaos Lord on Karkadrak - General, arcane tome, master of magic -220pt Battleline Chaos Knights (reinforced) , khorne, +1 wound banner -460pt Chaos Chosen (reinforced), nurgle , -1 rend banner -480pt Chaos Warriors, nurgle -220pt Varanguard , khorne -280pt Varanguard , khorne -280pt Endless Spells Gnashing Jaws -60pt Battalion Chaos Warband Edited November 26, 2022 by Wraith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayul Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 8 hours ago, SpiritofHokuto said: Gnashing Jaws, Burning Head and Spite Tongue Curse is plugging 10+ MW on average vs a Mv 5/6 unit. If the use case is exterminating chaff, then Infernal Flames and Winds of Chaos should be mentioned as warscroll spells as well. Multiple Endless Spells do add up in points and at a certain point it should be considered to just take (or upgrade to) a potent caster in my opinion. ...and you can screen them with archers like mentioned by @Wraith. I don't know why Karic Acolytes aren't listed by him though. They have a pseudo Ward 6+ with their shields and sufficient melee weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 5 hours ago, Wraith said: Host of Everchosen 2000pt - 1 drop Leaders Chaos Lord on Karkadrak - General, arcane tome, master of magic -220pt Battleline Chaos Knights (reinforced) , khorne, +1 wound banner -460pt Chaos Chosen (reinforced), nurgle , -1 rend banner -480pt Chaos Warriors, nurgle -220pt Varanguard , khorne -280pt Varanguard , khorne -280pt Endless Spells Gnashing Jaws -60pt Battalion Chaos Warband Thats a lot of hammers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritofHokuto Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 4 hours ago, Bayul said: If the use case is exterminating chaff, then Infernal Flames and Winds of Chaos should be mentioned as warscroll spells as well. Multiple Endless Spells do add up in points and at a certain point it should be considered to just take (or upgrade to) a potent caster in my opinion. ...and you can screen them with archers like mentioned by @Wraith. I don't know why Karic Acolytes aren't listed by him though. They have a pseudo Ward 6+ with their shields and sufficient melee weapons. Sorc Lord on Manticore is certainly an option, it's a very good horde clearing spell. But against say a 10 man screening unit, you're averaging about 4 MW. Sure it can spike higher, but then so can Gnashing Jaws and that has a built in re-roll when it's first cast. And to be fair, both options suffer vs 5 man cavalry Tokyo drifting screening units. And with Endless Spells you can just fire and forget them to an extent. If your opponent wants to sacrifice a cast to get rid of them, that's fine. Whereas the Manti Sorc Lord needs to be using Draw on Power to get their warscroll spell off with any reliablity, which means either having them hang way back, or denying your other wizards the bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rors Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 I'd say that the sorc on manticor is a great option. I think he's basically an auto include in cabalist because he's one of the few sources of magic damage in the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holy_Diver Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 On 11/26/2022 at 12:33 AM, Wraith said: In response to point 1, the warriors are the anvil. The knights are the hammer. ...And this without considering the current GH. Being galletian veteran warriors take +1 damage from bounty hunters, while knights don't (and maintain higher output than warriors even without khorne/slaanesh mark). That's why the question might seem simple, but it wasn't. The answer imho is: it depends on the list. On 11/26/2022 at 12:33 AM, Wraith said: In response to point 2, I don't think there has been time for most people to consider what board control options there are. But there are a way array of suitable cultists, marauder horse, furies and allies to look at. Ravagers looks to be to obvious board control option, since it can bring back destroyed screening units. As people start to encounter problems with their heavy units in various scenarios, they will explore what can be done with board control. One thing S2D is lacking is suitable missile troops to clear away screens. What allies can fill this gap? Are there spells in the tome somewhere that can clear screens? So, this is an argument that I would actually leave open, because we are at the dawn of the new tome and the necessary data should be collected to bring convincing arguments. However, mine was a question more about impressions, rather than actual statistics. On 11/26/2022 at 10:36 AM, Wraith said: First, a general purpose list. I know that the run and charge is doubled up from Slannesh mark and damned legion ability, but I think it is worth getting all mounted to run and charge and get the +1" to run and charge s well. It has two ways to get the 3D6"charge. Three options to clear screens, Bray Shaman's warscroll spell, shooting from the Ungor Raiders and Marauder Horse, and the endless spell. I based selections on what models I have available. Empty Throne 2000pt -1 drop Leaders Chaos Lord on Karkadrak - General, arcane tome, master of magic -220pt Chaos Socerer - Demonic Speed -120pt Great Bray Shaman - Leviate -100pt Battleline Chaos Knights (reinforced) , slannesh, +1 attack banner -460pt Chaos Chosen (reinforced), nurgle -480pt Marauder Horse , slannesh, javelins -105pt Marauder Horse , slannesh, javelins -105pt Other Ungor Raiders (reinforced) -160pt Behemoths Chaos Warshine , slannesh, curse -185pt Endless Spells Gnashing Jaws -60pt Battalion Battle Regiment TOTAL - 1995pt My last test was with a KoTET too and was: Horse lord Sorcerer Stoker 20 Splintered 9 corvus 9 corvus 6 varanguard 10 knights 1 horse chariot 1 horse chariot The feeling is that of excellent competitive potential (I can deploy on the sidelines to avoid the alpha strike and then counter-load with everything, but I need more tests). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 On 11/26/2022 at 11:55 PM, Bayul said: I don't know why Karic Acolytes aren't listed by him though. They have a pseudo Ward 6+ with their shields and sufficient melee weapons. Tzeentch modeling is so far down my list of projects that I forgot that god exists. They also have lesser daemons with missile attacks that could be allied in. I'll use the ungor raiders for now, but that is only because that is what is currently on my workbench. I am not arguing that they are an optimal choice. On 11/27/2022 at 12:46 AM, Malakithe said: Thats a lot of hammers... Yes. I just threw in every heavy troop model that I have to see what it looks like. Just enough to fill a 2000 point army. 15 hours ago, Holy_Diver said: ...And this without considering the current GH. Being galletian veteran warriors take +1 damage from bounty hunters, while knights don't (and maintain higher output than warriors even without khorne/slaanesh mark). That's why the question might seem simple, but it wasn't. The answer imho is: it depends on the list. So, this is an argument that I would actually leave open, because we are at the dawn of the new tome and the necessary data should be collected to bring convincing arguments. However, mine was a question more about impressions, rather than actual statistics. My last test was with a KoTET too and was: Horse lord Sorcerer Stoker 20 Splintered 9 corvus 9 corvus 6 varanguard 10 knights 1 horse chariot 1 horse chariot The feeling is that of excellent competitive potential (I can deploy on the sidelines to avoid the alpha strike and then counter-load with everything, but I need more tests). Galletian Veterans will go when the next GHB comes out. We need to think beyond that for army concepts. But do take it into account for competition battles for the rest of this year. I wasn't really talked about stats, but rather what overall army concepts we can come up with. The Ravager build using Archaon and Splintered Fang is the current favourite. It uses Archon's fight on death ability and the replacement ability of the sub faction to maximise attacks the the snake boys. I am not terribly inspired to do the modelling to build this army, so I am not that interested in it. But it shows what an overall army concept looks like. It all works together in a particular way. So what else can we do? The idea of using the Chaos warband regiment and getting one drop with mostly troop units could be very efficient. I recall one of Vince Venturella's videos discussed how points inefficient most heros were. The idea here is to present the opponent with threat saturation of efficient troop units. I think this one could be promising. The rules for mounted heroes with first strike on the charge and the ability to activate a knights or chariot unit with them, is the build the designers seem to want us to follow. The ideal battle for this concept would be to do a minimal drop, choose to go second in the first turn, then hopefully get the double turn and charge twice with the heroes and knights in succession. The issue with the screens and count screens is how to prevent the opponent interfering with that. I think the important point here is that this build is all about getting the charge. The Knights need it to max their damage, the hero needs it to get first strike. I think they call this an ABC build (Always Be Charging). There will be other ideas. For me, I try to see what I can do with an army that I want to model. I like the Legion of the First Prince miniatures, so I am wondering how I can make that effective. I am thinking it will be a concept more along the lines of board control than directly destroying enemy units, using Furies and Corvus Cabel to score victory points. Anyway, here is the assembled January and February painting projects, all undercoated and prepared for painting. I am going to add another Legionnaire unit and I need Eternus to be released. There is still 500 points to play with in this list. Looking at your army list, how many drops is it? Are you planning on using any battalions? Will you try to control who finished deploying first and thus who goes first? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibel Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 Cool Ideas: This is my Cabalist List: Spoiler Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness- Damned Legion: CabalistsLeaders 10 Zauber DP MdN 195 Artefact: Arcane Tome Spell:Flamming Weapon/ Spite Tongue Curse Chaos Wizzard MdT 120 Spell: Binding Damnation / Chaotic Condult Chaos Wizzard MdT 120 Spell: Chaotic Condult / Daemnic Speed Chaos Lord auf Mount MdS 170 Spell: Flamming Weapon Chaos Lord MdN 115 Spell:Chaotic Condult Chaos Sorcerer auf Manticore MdT 265 General: Master of Magic Spell: Binding Damnation / Daemnic Speed Battleline 10 CW MdN 220 5 Chaos Knights MdS 230 10 Maurauder MdT 85 3 Varanguuards MdS with Fealspears Banner des Slaneesh 290 Punkte Endless Spells & InvocationsChronomantic Cogs (70)Realmscourge (60)Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws (60) Total: 2000 / 2000Drops: 2 (2 Battallions) But i realy would like to try my Mutaliths Despoiler List but... we will see.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holy_Diver Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, Wraith said: Galletian Veterans will go when the next GHB comes out. We need to think beyond that for army concepts. But do take it into account for competition battles for the rest of this year. I wasn't really talked about stats, but rather what overall army concepts we can come up with. The Ravager build using Archaon and Splintered Fang is the current favourite. It uses Archon's fight on death ability and the replacement ability of the sub faction to maximise attacks the the snake boys. I am not terribly inspired to do the modelling to build this army, so I am not that interested in it. But it shows what an overall army concept looks like. It all works together in a particular way. Unfortunately it is not possible to talk about the tome inside a soap bubble, we also have to deal with this GH (which we don't know if it will abandon us in December). I've heard a lot about the Archaon+cultists spam list, both on youtube and here. Do you know what the problem with that list is? Roar. And the current meta is well stocked with monsters. 12 hours ago, Wraith said: The ideal battle for this concept would be to do a minimal drop, choose to go second in the first turn, then hopefully get the double turn and charge twice with the heroes and knights in succession. The issue with the screens and count screens is how to prevent the opponent interfering with that. I think the important point here is that this build is all about getting the charge. The Knights need it to max their damage, the hero needs it to get first strike. I think they call this an ABC build (Always Be Charging). I've been playing around with a similar list lately, each testing adjusting a unit here and there, to see what performs best. Of one thing I am absolutely certain: slaves to darkness need not go first. So the drop shouldn't concern us, as it's much stronger to have 9-9 corvus cabal worth 27-27 on obj anywhere on the battlefield. The bounty hunters, on the other hand, have a lower weight in terms of potential, so it may be okay not to play them (I always use them). You say screens are a problem? Yesterday against a list of NH Scarlet doom my opponent screened his 20-20 bladegheists, I went ahead with everything, evaporated the screens and took the field. If he didn't win the priority roll the game would have ended there, but he won. I lost? No, I still won, because 60+ wounds armor 3+ 4/5+ vs mortals make you ****** bricks before you take them off (there were 6 khorne varanguard and 10 nurgle banner knights). In my second turn every ghost returned to Nagash crying 😄 And that's pretty this. Let's begin to think that games are won in sustained DPS, you don't necessarily need to do 100 damage in a turn and then die badly from a counter-charge. Better to do 50 a turn, but do it for the whole ****** 5 turns. Edited November 28, 2022 by Holy_Diver 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsmith Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 Hi guys, starting up a ptg with a friend, I'm running Nurgle std and he is Slaanesh std. Anyone got any advice on list building for mirror matches? I'm not quite sure where we are at with soup nowadays - would allying in any maggotkin units be pointless? I know that std units in maggotkin get mark of nurgle, but do maggotkin units get the mark of nurgle std rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayul Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 5 hours ago, Soulsmith said: I'm running Nurgle std and he is Slaanesh std There are only very few efficent allies, which stand out: It's predominantly Bloodstoker and Bloodsecrator to buff KHORNE units or Sigvald, who can be accelerated by a SLAANESH warshrine and obtain 3D6 attacks after his charge. There's weird stuff you can do with TZEENTCH allies and nothing noteworthy from Maggotkin of Nurgle in my opinion. They would be included with the NURGLE mark in a list though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rors Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 In terms of list builds, I've been having success with a one drop host build. - nurgleSorcerer, master of magic and arcane tome - 20 Nurgle Warriors w anti rend banner - 2x 10 nurgle warriors - 2x 10 darkoath - 3 khorne varangaurd with spears 10 khorne knights w +1 wounding banner - sigil It's ridiculously tanky, has hammers to deal with threats, and there's a beautiful synergy with getting to pick who starts and the sigil, which works both defensively and offensively. I'm really surprised more people don't sigil. 40 points for a spell that often gives your entire army an extra attack.. just sacrifice a screen of darkoath or blow something up with knights/varangaurd. on warriors alone that increases their output by 33%, factor that across the whole army and it's insane how much value you get. There's so many games where the winner is decided on the priority roll and this spell will pull the rug out from under people because they need to choose between handing you the double or fighting an army that's almost doubling it's damage output. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 Is the Purple Sun still all the rage for additional rend and chances to delete enemy units? Would it stack well with Chosen for instance? Or is Purple Sun out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibel Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 3 minutes ago, Ravinsild said: Is the Purple Sun still all the rage for additional rend and chances to delete enemy units? Would it stack well with Chosen for instance? Or is Purple Sun out? I Would say its okay. Especially in Cabalist. The Question is did u get enough Troops (Choosen, CW, Snakes) ?! I am not really sure if it works but i dont count them totally out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 11 minutes ago, ibel said: I Would say its okay. Especially in Cabalist. The Question is did u get enough Troops (Choosen, CW, Snakes) ?! I am not really sure if it works but i dont count them totally out. Most of my lists seem to hit 40 models 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibel Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 28 minutes ago, Ravinsild said: Most of my lists seem to hit 40 models 40 Modells in S2D ?!?! U play Cultist Lists right ?!?! But let be honest.... of course a Purpel Sun between the targets for 60 Warriors can really help, jes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 1 hour ago, ibel said: 40 Modells in S2D ?!?! U play Cultist Lists right ?!?! But let be honest.... of course a Purpel Sun between the targets for 60 Warriors can really help, jes. I actually hate cultists and don’t own any. I might be counting wrong but … 4 Heroes, 20 Chaos Warriors, 10 Knights, 5 Chosen that’s already 39 then you know whatever I can find to fill points.. or even 10 chosen in a certain list so that’s a 44 model list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibel Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 57 minutes ago, Ravinsild said: a 44 model list Hey u might be right. But really fighting Modells there are 10 Knights 5 Choosen.... maybe Warrior (with buffs or so). But jes Purpel Sun could be a option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsmith Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 9 hours ago, Bayul said: There are only very few efficent allies, which stand out: It's predominantly Bloodstoker and Bloodsecrator to buff KHORNE units or Sigvald, who can be accelerated by a SLAANESH warshrine and obtain 3D6 attacks after his charge. There's weird stuff you can do with TZEENTCH allies and nothing noteworthy from Maggotkin of Nurgle in my opinion. They would be included with the NURGLE mark in a list though. So we do get the slaves to darkness mark of nurgle buff on maggotkin coalition/allies? Sorry if this is obvious, haven't played since early 2nd 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 2 minutes ago, Soulsmith said: So we do get the slaves to darkness mark of nurgle buff on maggotkin coalition/allies? Sorry if this is obvious, haven't played since early 2nd 😂 Nope. Allies do not benefit from anything the army allying them gets. They also don't benefit from anything out of their own book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayul Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 48 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: Nope. Allies do not benefit from anything the army allying them gets. That's not accurate. You can find interactions between S2D units and allies in this codex. As mentioned above you can yeet Sigvald with a SLAANESH Warshrine across the battlefied. The Warshrine doesn't discriminate any allied units. Allies benefit trom the Trophy Rack in range of a Daemon Prince, his Doombringer Blade or Radiance of Dark Glory. To crown it all, lesser daemons get the SLAVES TO DARKNESS keyword in Legion of the First Prince so you can... uh... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Bayul said: That's not accurate. You can find interactions between S2D units and allies in this codex. As mentioned above you can yeet Sigvald with a SLAANESH Warshrine across the battlefied. The Warshrine doesn't discriminate any allied units. Allies benefit trom the Trophy Rack in range of a Daemon Prince, his Doombringer Blade or Radiance of Dark Glory. To crown it all, lesser daemons get the SLAVES TO DARKNESS keyword in Legion of the First Prince so you can... uh... Sure but those are warscroll abilities no abilities one finds in the battletome (which is what I meant) Edited November 29, 2022 by JackStreicher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rors Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 Purple sun is a good endless spell and rend 2 warriors or rend 3 knights will do some work but I think it's less efficient in StD than it is in say Night Haunt who can really maximize it or KO who can use range to get more economy from it. It's always going to be good for pretty much any army because it's base value is good but it's not as synergistic with StD as other armies that frequently take it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Krungharr Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 Got my first Mutalith assembled tonight! Really not sure I want to glue the tails or warp-ball on though....thinking when I get my second one, I can use the tails from both to make the tentacly mouth on a custom third one, and one warp-ball to make a staff for my kitbashed Lord of Change...who will be allied in as their caretaker. Are the points in Warscroll Builder at least accurate? Probably Despoilers for the extra wounds? Or Cabalists for better magic? Tome is not arrived yet, but this one's for funsies of course, and pure Chaos! 225....Karkadrak Lord (general, Tzeentch, Arcane Tome) 135....Sorcerer Lord (Tzeentch) 400....Allied Lord of Change (Levitate) 400..... 4 single Chariots (not sure what Mark, I think Slaanesh makes things able to charge 3D6?) 190....2 Sphiranxes (because I have them and striking first helps crappy units) 525....3 Mutaliths 50....Soulsnare Shackles (to prevent some charging) 40.....Prismatic Palisade (to prevent some shooting) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibel Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 2 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said: Are the points in Warscroll Builder at least accurate? No sry, For the S2D not. In your List the Sorcerer and the Lord of Karadrake are both cheaper. We all hope it will get fix soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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