AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Boar]

2 hours ago, Grimrock said:

I found one thing for the FAQ, currently the spell from the Mark of Tzeentch doesn't have any limitation on moving after setting the unit up. It's possible that it was intended as the Mark of Tzeentch is pretty useless otherwise, but that spell is bonkers as is. 

It's only 9" range where you can set up unit, dunno if this is bonkers. No restriction on move afterwards seem like intended move on GWs part

[Frowny]

1 hour ago, Xasz said:

Why would you ever bring it if every unit you are realistically gonna put on the table has a 5++ or better by default?

Note that the save on ppl with shields is only against mortal wounds, not regular wounds. The warshrine one also stops regular wounds (as do the rolls on eye of the gods) so they are still useful.

[Rors]

2 hours ago, Boar said:

It's only 9" range where you can set up unit, dunno if this is bonkers. No restriction on move afterwards seem like intended move on GWs part

It's got some play, pop a unit out of a combat it doesn't want to be in and they can still move and run/charge. Could let you cycle charge with knights, varangaurd or chariots, or Archaons.  Or if you teleport a units 9 inches behind the hero to 9 inches in front you have a free 18 + wizards base size of movement, that's a lot if the base is a manticor.

I won't use it personally but I'm sure there's someone with a big brain that can make that work.

If I did try it I think I'd play it simple, use this to effectively redeploy Archaons 9 inches forward Infront of the deployment zone turn one, give him deamonic steed and then alpha strike.

[Frowny]

One possible use i can imagine is in legion of the first prince.

Since wizards don't really need the combat buffs they might as well take tzeentch for the free spell and spell immunity (so they don't get sniped by endless spells).

Then, if the niche spell would be useful, any undivided unit can be tzeentch for the turn (to be targeted by the spell) and blinked to a new location.

It gets most of the utility of a niche ability without investing more in it.

It's a little bit of a weirdly worded spell, blinking a unit from within 9 to still within 9. It almost seems like it needs an faq? It's very different from other teleport spells. For example most other teleports you can't move but this one maybe you can and should be able to since it's so limited otherwise?

[Rors]

I tried a game last night using the leaked book and it's a huge shake up, plays like an entirely new faction. Based off my experience I'm going to try this list out and get ready to take it to the next tournament. Based on my play test, warriors are now amazing, proper heavy infantry that can grind with the best of them and when supported, khorne knights are the heavy cavalry they should be. Rally on a 4+ is also absurdly good on warriors and knights. Chariots are good screens/good at clearing screens and the gorebeast will catch a lot of people surprised with its end of combat movement and mortal wounds.   

Host of the Everchosen

(Khorne) Chaos Lord on Karkadrak 220 - General, Arcane Tome - Flaming Weapon, Arch Sorcerer - knows all the lore of the damned

10 (Khorne) Chaos Knights 460 - Khorne banner (+1 wound) 

20 (Nurgle) Warriors 440 - Nurgle banner (worse rend by 1 for melee within 12)

20 (Nurgle) Warriors 440 

(Khorne) Chariot 100

(Khorne) Chariot 100

(Khorne) Gorebeast Chariot 115 

(Khorne) Marauder Horsemen 105

1980

Chaos Warband: One Drop

Grad Strat: No Place For The Weak

[Xasz]

5 hours ago, Frowny said:

Note that the save on ppl with shields is only against mortal wounds, not regular wounds. The warshrine one also stops regular wounds (as do the rolls on eye of the gods) so they are still useful.

I am aware, I probably should have elaborated a bit.

• the working parts of the entire book are now running a 3+ by default, therefore the case for the shrine to work got narrower
• if it is not a normal wound the shrine is rather useless on non-cultist units
• except the Slaanesh prayer they read a lot less impactful than the previous ones
• flexibility is gone as the shrine is locked into its prayer through its mark and it seems that new lists will now bring multiple marks
• considering that "everything" is more expensive, there are fewer points to spare and the shrine in its previous glory was the first thing that was cut from current lists, even with all its upsides (although it is a bit cheaper now but why not add two extra cultist units or another hammer instead, you would have to save a lot of wounds to make up for an entire unit)
• the army seems faster than before, it might be difficult to keep units in range (although in all fairness is 18" is pretty big and will only be a problem in later turns

At least it returned to its previous point cost.

I am not arguing that everyone should melt their shrines down. It still seems like a reasonable unit but it most certainly does not strike me as a winner in the new book.

[Rors]

3d6 charge is good. It does seem a bit hard to justify though. Maybe in a more slanesh themed list. With a hero casting daemonic steed you could have two chariots doing decent mortal wounds.

The other option is khorne, the prayer isn't great but khorne really does like to be getting it's charges off and with +1 attack on all the melee profiles this could also support a block or warriors.

 

[Keleath]

In a slaaneshi themed army, with Sigvald as an ally O-)-c

[Frowny]

5 hours ago, Xasz said:

I am aware, I probably should have elaborated a bit.

My mistake as well. I thought it was an 'i can't read these very blurry PDFs' situations.

Anther reason you are right Is that many units already have or can access the 6+ ward. Oracular vision from the sorc lord gives.it, as do 2 eye of the gods rolls, and the demon prince has one now baseline.

a single sorceror Lord like before seems like an auto include just for his warscrolls spell.

There are a few possible saving graces and use cases

1) it's possible there is a prayer page we aren't seeing. For example, the idolator Lord command trait makes a unit a priest but so far there are no prayers for him to use. This makes.me think there may be a few prayers. 

2) 18'' is pretty much your entire army. At his current cost, and assuming nothing already has a ward save (like archeon), he provides a ~20% boost in survivability to your whole army for only ~10% the cost of your army is not the worst. And the profile seems ok on its own. That's somewhat useable

I agree with you though. A useable profile that will see some play on its own in armies marked toward a specific god where it will always have targets. For example an all Nurgle army might want one as the ward goes nicely with their goal of being surviveable, the Nurgle bonus of -1 to be wounded is always usefulf and the Nurgle prayer is always useful.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Frowny

[Causalis]

Got some more miniatures done. 

 

[Boar]

16 hours ago, Rors said:

It's got some play, pop a unit out of a combat it doesn't want to be in and they can still move and run/charge. Could let you cycle charge with knights, varangaurd or chariots, or Archaons.  Or if you teleport a units 9 inches behind the hero to 9 inches in front you have a free 18 + wizards base size of movement, that's a lot if the base is a manticor.

I won't use it personally but I'm sure there's someone with a big brain that can make that work.

If I did try it I think I'd play it simple, use this to effectively redeploy Archaons 9 inches forward Infront of the deployment zone turn one, give him deamonic steed and then alpha strike.

I did not realise initially but it pulls visible unit to caster, that can be really good in some situations. And now I am wondering again if 'move allowed' will be after all FAQed.

[ChaosUndivided]

19 hours ago, Boar said:

It's only 9" range where you can set up unit, dunno if this is bonkers. No restriction on move afterwards seem like intended move on GWs part

Its not "wholly within 9" just 9 wich if im reading this right only 1 model in say a 10 man squad has to actually be within 9 of the wizard.

[Grimrock]

3 hours ago, ChaosUndivided said:

Its not "wholly within 9" just 9 wich if im reading this right only 1 model in say a 10 man squad has to actually be within 9 of the wizard.

So grab a unit from anywhere on the board you can see and set it up within 9 of the caster, then it can move and charge? Yeah that's definitely going to get an FAQ. Worst case that's like a 15" free move when teleporting warriors or knights. Guaranteed turn 1 alpha strike easy. Even better late game for repositioning for objectives.

[Rors]

Oh wow, yeah it needs a FAQ but you're right, picking the unit has no range and there's no whole within 9.

 Bringing a big block of warriors across from one flank to another seems good.

There's a bit of anti-synergy as you'd want to be cabalists and then your heros need to clump.

Also, this is great tech in a Krondspine meta

Edited October 16, 2022 by Rors

[Frowny]

I had read it as needing the target unit to be within 9 as well since it gives a casting range and usually you can't pick something outside casting range? Still seems like it need an faq badly 

[Beliman]

6 hours ago, Frowny said:

I had read it as needing the target unit to be within 9 as well since it gives a casting range and usually you can't pick something outside casting range? Still seems like it need an faq badly 

I think that picking target is table-wide. Other 3.0 spells seems to follow the same wording:

1. Casting
2. Range (if any)
3. Pick target
   1. Conditional: LoS, wholly within/ within range (point 2), friendly or enemy, unit or model, Monster/Wizard, etc...
4. Effect 1
   1. Conditional (if any)
5. Effect 2 (if any).
   1. Conditional (if any)

Warp reality seems to have range (point 2), but it's used on Effect 2 (set-up within range of the caster). But pick target  (point 3) only has one conditional (Line of Sight).

[Causalis]

I'm surprised there is hardly any talk about the Theridons. They look INCREDIBLY strong (on paper). Give 'em the Khorne mark + Unleash Rage and they clock in at 16 attacks, 3+/3+/-2/3D for only 190p. Add AoA etc. to boost further. That's enough to kill most targets outright and if they get shot to pieces before they can fight they are "cheap" enough that you can compensate. 

A neat combo to me also would be a normal Chariot w/ Slaanesh mark + Warshrine buff. 3D6 charge, every 5+ a mortal wound. 

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, Causalis said:

I'm surprised there is hardly any talk about the Theridons. They look INCREDIBLY strong (on paper). Give 'em the Khorne mark + Unleash Rage and they clock in at 16 attacks, 3+/3+/-2/3D for only 190p. Add AoA etc. to boost further. That's enough to kill most targets outright and if they get shot to pieces before they can fight they are "cheap" enough that you can compensate. 

I think the reason I'm a little cold on them is the comparison to Chosen. They fill similar roles as a high damage hammer unit, and their damage is similar (chosen are a little better on average if my math is right) but Ogroids are significantly more fragile and miss out on potential buffs like the Ensorcelled Banners or Daemonic Power. That being said I could see a list where you take a bunch of cultists and Ogroids and just swarm the board, but I don't really love spamming so I don't usually go that route. We also haven't seen all the scrolls, so if they get something good off of the Myrmidon then they could definitely be more attractive. 

[Causalis]

41 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

I think the reason I'm a little cold on them is the comparison to Chosen. They fill similar roles as a high damage hammer unit, and their damage is similar (chosen are a little better on average if my math is right) but Ogroids are significantly more fragile and miss out on potential buffs like the Ensorcelled Banners or Daemonic Power. That being said I could see a list where you take a bunch of cultists and Ogroids and just swarm the board, but I don't really love spamming so I don't usually go that route. We also haven't seen all the scrolls, so if they get something good off of the Myrmidon then they could definitely be more attractive. 

Chosen seem good but they've only got rend -1 and we all know how prevalent save-stacking currently is. There's a good chance they'll just bounce off from whatever they're hitting.

[Grimrock]

24 minutes ago, Causalis said:

Chosen seem good but they've only got rend -1 and we all know how prevalent save-stacking currently is. There's a good chance they'll just bounce off from whatever they're hitting.

Well, rend -1 yeah but they also have mortal wounds which balances out the more average rend on the base stats. When I worked out the damage against a 3+ save the chosen came out slightly ahead of the Ogroids, but it could shift a bit depending on how bad the save stacking gets. They also have the once per game ability to attack twice if needed which is far superior offensively speaking to a once per game +1 attack.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Grimrock

[Boar]

Chosen actually deal slightly more damage to 2+ saves.

Per point of course Ogroid are somewhat more effcient in offense, but same measure (per 100pts) puts them as quite worse in effective wounds:

Remeber chart has lot of assumptions of baseline situation (regarding enemy saves, incoming damage, charge frequency) for my calcs, and only handful of units entered. So you could say it is presented as is for educational/entertainment purposes

[Jaskier]

The problem Theridons have is they are a glass hammer surrounded by steel hammers, and unless the Myrmidon scroll gives them something good, they lack obvious synergies like the other core units they compete with. Taken on their own merits they are good, they just don't look as good as the units next to them; Chosen, Knights and Varanguard all look excellent in no small part thanks to their 3+ saves. 

[Boar]

There is edge case right now that Chosen in host of Everchosen gain Battleline role and thus become GV making them vulnerable to Bounty Hunters. Which Ogroids having 5 wounds are exempt from even if battleline.

Those same 5 wounds give them slightly better capture.

Well +1 Move can sometimes mean something too I guess.

But Warshrine won't protect them, as was mentioned already Demonic Power don't work with those guys, and Banners are for Chosen not for you mr. ogroid.

Though they are quite importantly cheaper, not only than Chosen but than Knights and Warriors as well. This could mean that sometimes they will be included based on remaining points. That may be their niche, besides loooking great of course.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Boar

[Frowny]

3 hours ago, Boar said:

Chosen actually deal slightly more damage to 2+ saves.

Per point of course Ogroid are somewhat more effcient in offense, but same measure (per 100pts) puts them as quite worse in effective wounds:

Remeber chart has lot of assumptions of baseline situation (regarding enemy saves, incoming damage, charge frequency) for my calcs, and only handful of units entered. So you could say it is presented as is for educational/entertainment purposes

This is super cool. thank you. Can you add  Varanguard with enscorcelled weapons? Those seem like the obvious pick to me. +1 wound on the spears you can get elsewhere and whole the extra rend is great, 5 attacks vs 3 makes them hugely better against most targets. I can't see myself ever taking the spears.

The other one I'd love to see is gorebeast chariots.

  

[Jaskier]

3 hours ago, Frowny said:

This is super cool. thank you. Can you add  Varanguard with enscorcelled weapons? Those seem like the obvious pick to me. +1 wound on the spears you can get elsewhere and whole the extra rend is great, 5 attacks vs 3 makes them hugely better against most targets. I can't see myself ever taking the spears.

The other one I'd love to see is gorebeast chariots.

  

I dunno, the difference between Rend 1 and Rend 3 (on the charge) is massive, and the built-in +1 to-wound means the unit needs less support investment. I personally would go with Fellspears, especially as when marked Khorne they want to be charging anyway.