AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[JackStreicher]

5 hours ago, PiotrW said:

And yeah - the Marauders issue. As I mentioned before, I really have a problem with how weak the minis are aesthetics-wise. Please tell me: is it common / acceptable among AoS players to use third-party proxies for their units? I might look around for similar models elsewhere...

Around here it‘s absolutely fine. You are be forbidden however to use 3rd party models in GW stores.

[sfe667]

Ok, so for those who've had plenty of games with the new Tome, help me out a bit here.

As a newbie to the game I'm trying to limit the use of proxies as much as possible, which is generally sending me down the Ravager route. I'd like to give the Plaguetouched Warband a go, so I'm trying to balance having a list with reasonable hammers & anvils whilst making sure I have enough heroes for the summoning. Four feels minimum on the basis that I can't guarantee they won't get sniped before getting to use the summon. 

List 1:

Karkadrak

Lord on foot

2x Sorcerer Lord

15 Warriors

40 Maurauders

2x 5 Knights

Warshrine

8x Iron Golems

 

List 2:

Heroes as above, plus Darkoath Warqueen

15 Warriors

2x 40 Marauders

Warshrine

1x CP

 

Plaguetouched Battalion for both as mentioned.

 

Both feel like they'd work well, but it's really balancing off the strike units of Knights Vs another unit of Marauders and a CP. I'm leaning towards the latter on the basis that the Warqueen would benefit the Maurauders and the additional CP feels quite necessary, but would welcome thoughts.

[sfe667]

I should have said, I know I could drop the Golems from the first list and grab a CP, but they felt like an insurance policy against losing a hero especially with the low quantity of models in that list.

[JackStreicher]

@sfe667 the first list looks absolutely fine. =}

**and looks quite similar to most of my lists except that I usually squeeze in a War Mammoth.

Edited February 22, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Gistradagis]

On 2/19/2020 at 12:53 AM, Agent of Chaos said:

Looking for advice on a Despoilers List I'm crafting; trying to maximise the benefits by taking 3 x DP (one being B'elakor).

Theory is Belakor and 20 warriors hold an objective, hopefully the centre, and should be really hard to shift with reroll saves, 6+ shrug and battleshock immunity (and if anyone wants to target Belakor he has 4+ ethereal, 5++, 6++ and Look Out Sir, plus two potential ways to heal!). Any unit that comes close to him risks being made to fight last with -1 to wound rolls. The Mask of Darkness sorcerer will be nearby in case someone needs teleporting and to give Belakor reroll saves.

Prince with sword of judgement goes hero/monster hunting with a screen of marauder horsemen. Before charging in I'll hopefully get the Call to Glory spell off on him (having observed that Daemonic Power only works on Mortals, I now see the point of the Call to Glory spell). This DP is the hero from the Godsworn battalion so he might even get to fight in my hero phase.

The other Prince will be screened by the knights and are there to generally make a nuisance of themselves. Both khorne princes will be popping their command ability at every opportunity to really frustrate my opponent. 

Chaos Lord and the marauders will hang back as a second wave / counter strike. Decided to go Undivided mark with these guys as I figured battleshock immunity and potential 6+ shrug would be more useful then rerolling 1's to hit, especially since they will hopefully be fighting twice. 

I know the battalion is average but as Diabolic Mantle is my second artifact its essentially giving 2 CP, possibly 3 or 4 CP.  and takes me from 10+ drops to 6. 

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Despoilers
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Be'Lakor (240)
- General
- Spell: Binding Damnation
Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince (210)
- Axe
- Artefact: Diabolic Mantle
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince (210)
- Sword
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
- Spell: Mask of Darkness
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
- Spell: Call to Glory
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided

Battleline
20 x Chaos Warriors (400)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
20 x Chaos Marauders (150)
- Axes & Shields
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided

Battalions
Godsworn Champions of Ruin (180)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 125

Ok, so it's been a few days, but I'll give you my two cents if you're interested in them. Coming from someone who has been playing a couple Despoilers lists this past month:

• Be'lakor as a general is usually a problem. The Chaos Undivided mark is kinda "bad": 6+ FNP sounds tempting as heck, but it's too unreliable and defensive to be efficient. More on this later. While it works, I'd call it weaker than Khorne/Slaanesh's marks for the intents and purposes of a match. You also get no General trait, which hurts.
• Two Sorcerers is a bit redundant. While Oracular Visions is great, as is Daemonic Power, you don't really need to Sorcerers at once. I'd also recommend giving Be'lakor the Mask of Darkness spell. He'll be in "the thick of it" much more often, meaning he can surprise the oponent by suddenly teleporting a unit (or himself) to any other place of the battlefield, while the sorcerer will usually be out of range of any units in need of teleport. The sorcerer would also benefit more from a mark of Tzeentch, rerolling 1s on save rolls to give him some extra survival power.
• Why the Chaos Lord? It's a bit of an odd choice on a Despoilers list. Leaving him behind with the Marauders is a bit too passive, something you never want to do with an aggressive army, and an intensely aggressive unit such as Marauders. I'd rather switch him for a Chaos Lord on Karkadrak if possible, and send it with the Knights. Speaking of Marauders though...
• A unit of 20 Marauders is usually not worth it. It can work, particularly if you're short on points, though. However, leaving them behind for a second wave/counterstrike is a cardinal sin. Marauders are your best unit, possible of the entire StD allegiance. Your plan with the Marauders, 9 games out of 10, should be to buff them (if possible) and teleport with Mask of Darkness to the opponent's weak point, then wreck havoc. A well-placed unit of Marauders wins games. Just to give you an example, I always use 40 Marauders and teleport them. The ensuing (almost guaranteed) charge and combat has very rarely not completely destroyed whichever unit it attacked, usually doing far more than that (if you buffed it with something such as Daemonic Power, which is just nuts). To be fair, 20 Marauders can still hurt, since you'll get both the Hit and Rend benefit, before the unit inevitably gets destroyed on the return swing/turn.
• Call to Glory is terrible; one of the worst spells we have, as it's basically a downgraded Daemonic Power. While it's somewhat functional with your plan (for hero-hunting), you inevitably tie your hands and marry yourself to an idea that might be sub-optimal much too often.ç
• Your idea with the warriors is half-right, half-wrong. While a unit of 20 will survive almost anything you're dedicating A LOT of points to a slow, unimpactful unit. You'll sit them, together with Be'lakor, on an objective? Most maps have around 3-4 objectives, meaning your opponent will ignore that one, making 1/3 of your entire army do almost nothing at all. And since Warriors are so slow, it'll be difficult to properly reposition them (and they don't even do that much damage). I'd recommend downsizing it to 15, then using those points on more Marauders, or getting the aforementioned Chaos Lord on Karkadrak. Or having a separate unit of 5 Warriors to more around, screen, or throw to an enemy objective and force their hand to defend it.

 

• The battalion is pretty neat. Despoilers has a hard time deploying, almost always going second, so this might help. A second CP and artefact is really great, too...
• I'd recommend having everything on Khorne, except Be'lakor and the Sorcerer, who can't have it and will be Undivided and (probably) Tzeentch. A Khorne DP also makes a far better general. With its own buff, it'll always hit on 3+, 2+, or 2+ 2+ if it charged, always rerolling 1s on Hit. For more fuckery, you could make your army from Shyish rather than Ulgu, and give it the Ethereal Amulet, making it invulnerable to Rend. So, a DP with all of that, a 3+ ethereal save, and a 5+ FNP. Healing D3 on every one of your turns on a 4+. With 10 Wounds rather than 8 if you give him the Bolstered by Hate trait (although Paragon of Ruin can be useful for your army and battalion). Come get him.
• The problem with this list is that you'll usually get overwhelmed. You are banking on a strong flank (with the DPs hunting enemy heroes and the Knights), but you do not have enough strength of units for that. The Warriors will either be back or too slow, same for the Sorcerers and Chaos Lord. Same with the Marauders if they are a reserve/counterattack unit, or you wanna teleport them somewhere else. You're left with 2 Daemon Princes and a suicidal unit of 5 Knights (as the horsemen won't charge, I guess). Even if the enemy somehow takes the bait and brings the fight to you, your units with the Undivided mark and the 6+ FNP don't have any damage. Those Warriors and Sorcerers are not killing many enemy units, no matter what. The Chaos Lord can do a bit, but he's fragile.

 

Well, in the end, this is all my opinion, obviously. And I'm trying to give useful tips from personal experience, so hopefully it won't sound like I'm being preachy or just shooting down your idea for no reason other than to be an ass 😛

[Kurrilino]

2 hours ago, Gistradagis said:

Ok, so it's been a few days, but I'll give you my two cents if you're interested in them. Coming from someone who has been playing a couple Despoilers lists this past month:

• Be'lakor as a general is usually a problem. The Chaos Undivided mark is kinda "bad": 6+ FNP sounds tempting as heck, but it's too unreliable and defensive to be efficient. More on this later. While it works, I'd call it weaker than Khorne/Slaanesh's marks for the intents and purposes of a match. You also get no General trait, which hurts.
• Two Sorcerers is a bit redundant. While Oracular Visions is great, as is Daemonic Power, you don't really need to Sorcerers at once. I'd also recommend giving Be'lakor the Mask of Darkness spell. He'll be in "the thick of it" much more often, meaning he can surprise the oponent by suddenly teleporting a unit (or himself) to any other place of the battlefield, while the sorcerer will usually be out of range of any units in need of teleport. The sorcerer would also benefit more from a mark of Tzeentch, rerolling 1s on save rolls to give him some extra survival power.
• Why the Chaos Lord? It's a bit of an odd choice on a Despoilers list. Leaving him behind with the Marauders is a bit too passive, something you never want to do with an aggressive army, and an intensely aggressive unit such as Marauders. I'd rather switch him for a Chaos Lord on Karkadrak if possible, and send it with the Knights. Speaking of Marauders though...
• A unit of 20 Marauders is usually not worth it. It can work, particularly if you're short on points, though. However, leaving them behind for a second wave/counterstrike is a cardinal sin. Marauders are your best unit, possible of the entire StD allegiance. Your plan with the Marauders, 9 games out of 10, should be to buff them (if possible) and teleport with Mask of Darkness to the opponent's weak point, then wreck havoc. A well-placed unit of Marauders wins games. Just to give you an example, I always use 40 Marauders and teleport them. The ensuing (almost guaranteed) charge and combat has very rarely not completely destroyed whichever unit it attacked, usually doing far more than that (if you buffed it with something such as Daemonic Power, which is just nuts). To be fair, 20 Marauders can still hurt, since you'll get both the Hit and Rend benefit, before the unit inevitably gets destroyed on the return swing/turn.
• Call to Glory is terrible; one of the worst spells we have, as it's basically a downgraded Daemonic Power. While it's somewhat functional with your plan (for hero-hunting), you inevitably tie your hands and marry yourself to an idea that might be sub-optimal much too often.ç
• Your idea with the warriors is half-right, half-wrong. While a unit of 20 will survive almost anything you're dedicating A LOT of points to a slow, unimpactful unit. You'll sit them, together with Be'lakor, on an objective? Most maps have around 3-4 objectives, meaning your opponent will ignore that one, making 1/3 of your entire army do almost nothing at all. And since Warriors are so slow, it'll be difficult to properly reposition them (and they don't even do that much damage). I'd recommend downsizing it to 15, then using those points on more Marauders, or getting the aforementioned Chaos Lord on Karkadrak. Or having a separate unit of 5 Warriors to more around, screen, or throw to an enemy objective and force their hand to defend it.

 

• The battalion is pretty neat. Despoilers has a hard time deploying, almost always going second, so this might help. A second CP and artefact is really great, too...
• I'd recommend having everything on Khorne, except Be'lakor and the Sorcerer, who can't have it and will be Undivided and (probably) Tzeentch. A Khorne DP also makes a far better general. With its own buff, it'll always hit on 3+, 2+, or 2+ 2+ if it charged, always rerolling 1s on Hit. For more fuckery, you could make your army from Shyish rather than Ulgu, and give it the Ethereal Amulet, making it invulnerable to Rend. So, a DP with all of that, a 3+ ethereal save, and a 5+ FNP. Healing D3 on every one of your turns on a 4+. With 10 Wounds rather than 8 if you give him the Bolstered by Hate trait (although Paragon of Ruin can be useful for your army and battalion). Come get him.
• The problem with this list is that you'll usually get overwhelmed. You are banking on a strong flank (with the DPs hunting enemy heroes and the Knights), but you do not have enough strength of units for that. The Warriors will either be back or too slow, same for the Sorcerers and Chaos Lord. Same with the Marauders if they are a reserve/counterattack unit, or you wanna teleport them somewhere else. You're left with 2 Daemon Princes and a suicidal unit of 5 Knights (as the horsemen won't charge, I guess). Even if the enemy somehow takes the bait and brings the fight to you, your units with the Undivided mark and the 6+ FNP don't have any damage. Those Warriors and Sorcerers are not killing many enemy units, no matter what. The Chaos Lord can do a bit, but he's fragile.

 

Well, in the end, this is all my opinion, obviously. And I'm trying to give useful tips from personal experience, so hopefully it won't sound like I'm being preachy or just shooting down your idea for no reason other than to be an ass 😛

Dont' worry about being honest. This is exactly what we need.

 

And i share most of your opinions. The design flaws in this book are unbelievable.

You have to do either or. There is nothing like having 1 or 2 anvils in the middle and something like Knights shredding the flanks and turn into the hammer. Points will just forbid it. And you are forced to take Marauders if you don't want to turn your list into a laughing stock. Problem with that is, they are a pure glass cannon.  The Knights rely on being with mounted Lord AND Lord of chaos to make them work. Problem is the speed of the Lord and you are locked into a despoilers list because you need the command points. So you end up playing despoilers without despoilers.

I saw that directly when i read the book first and it was confirmed in several games. Since i don't like Marauders at all i am forced to go back to Nurgle or Tzeench. Especially Tzeench benefits from  StD since Tzeench is doing everything better then any choices we have in the StD book. Basically you play an upgraded cabalist version with better magic artefacts and command abilities. Suddenly all problems from the StD book are cancelled, using the exact same units. Even the to be weak considered Maggotkin book starts shining. It's such a shame

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Kurrilino

[JackStreicher]

What bothers me most however is that when they announced StD I planned on playing 3-6 boxes of spire tyrants, since I expected them to be at least 1A,3+,4+,-,1 with some special dmg2 weapons for the champion. Well, look how far from any senseful Integration all those warbands except Iron Golems are.

at this Point I am considering to go Disciples of Tzeentch or Slaanesh, though I don‘t want to

Edited February 23, 2020 by JackStreicher

[JackStreicher]

Something I've been working on. I'll test this asaic. Feedback after testing is appreciated
Chaos Resurgent.pdf

Edited February 23, 2020 by JackStreicher

[begleysm]

16 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Something I've been working on. I'll test this asaic. Feedback after testing is appreciated
Chaos Resurgent.pdf

Where is that page from?

[Gistradagis]

1 hour ago, begleysm said:

Where is that page from?

His imagination. Pretty sure it's just something he created to test, as an alternative to the underwhelming faction abilities you get.

11 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

What bothers me most however is that when they announced StD I planned on playing 3-6 boxes of spire tyrants, since I expected them to be at least 1A,3+,4+,-,1 with some special dmg2 weapons for the champion. Well, look how far from any senseful Integration all those warbands except Iron Golems are.

at this Point I am considering to go Disciples of Tzeentch or Slaanesh, though I don‘t want to

I used to play Nurgle and decided to come back to AoS due to StD looking dang fine with the new models. Didn't expect GW to hold back so much with the updated battletome though... I laugh every time I'm told StD is an elite army. Where are those elite units though¿?¿?¿

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Gistradagis said:

His imagination. Pretty sure it's just something he created to test, as an alternative to the underwhelming faction abilities you get.

Yes.

I‘ve put some typos in (I just realized) and I didn‘t clarify that allied GREATER DAEMONS also receive the Aura of Chaos Allegiance Ability.

It‘d be cool if GW added an rules as I posted them to a WD. My main goal was to give S2D a more meaningful interaction with Chaos as a whole while increasing their Power as an elite faction by a little.

[The World Tree]

It certainly does seem weird how open a lot of the god-specific books are compared to the narrowness of STD.

There are so many weird design choices. I love the book but it is so odd. Why are marauders the game's best chargers? Why are they so much slower at charging when put on a horse? Why is Chaos Undivided mostly pointless with Archaon's legion? Why do Chaos Knights and warrior have the same save as Centigor in combat? Why are the varanguard circles like that? Why does all of the cultist stuff not interact with the faction abilities? Why do marauders (in big units) have rend whilst chaos warriors don't? Why does a chaos lord on foot operate as archaon's butler?

Edited February 23, 2020 by The World Tree

[Snakeb1te]

One thing that annoys me personally, is that the S2D units lost the ability to be marked on their warscroll. This means there's no sense in using them in a Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance as they won't receive any buffs from the other army units. 

But I totally agree with TheWorldTree. Cultist units really should've at least had the Undivided trait, and Chaos Warriors some kind of rend. It is so frustrating that they pushed marauders this way.

Now what - if I go out and buy a bunch of Marauders and Marauder Horsemen, go through all the effort of mixing and matching bits with other sets - then they release a Marauder box in 6 months. Man I'm gonna be pissed. Same with Chosen.

[Ellarr]

25 minutes ago, Snakeb1te said:

One thing that annoys me personally, is that the S2D units lost the ability to be marked on their warscroll. This means there's no sense in using them in a Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance as they won't receive any buffs from the other army units. 

But I totally agree with TheWorldTree. Cultist units really should've at least had the Undivided trait, and Chaos Warriors some kind of rend. It is so frustrating that they pushed marauders this way.

Now what - if I go out and buy a bunch of Marauders and Marauder Horsemen, go through all the effort of mixing and matching bits with other sets - then they release a Marauder box in 6 months. Man I'm gonna be pissed. Same with Chosen.

Am I missing something?

Right there on the Chaos Warrior warscroll.

[Snakeb1te]

25 minutes ago, Ellarr said:

Am I missing something?

Right there on the Chaos Warrior warscroll.

*Cough*.

Thanks. I've reviewed those scrolls over and over but from the beginning my eyes were glazing over that part as I tried to figure out the book synergies. Damn! Sorry!

[NJohansson]

I seem to be in the minority on this forum - but I like the book. I think it has lots of strong units in Archaon, Be’lakor, Sorcer Lord on Manticore, Sorcerer Lord, Daemon Prince of Khorne, Gaunt Summoners, shrines and Marauders. There are probably other good units (pending on army comp) but these are the ones that stand out to me.  
 

The sub factions are also interesting with ravages, despoilers and cabalists all having something that I can play around with. Yes both the Slaanesh and Tzeentch faction books are on a higher level of competitive play (but they are so compared to almost any other faction) but the StD offers a solid book that definitely can provide builds that can match most armies.

[Gistradagis]

5 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

I seem to be in the minority on this forum - but I like the book. I think it has lots of strong units in Archaon, Be’lakor, Sorcer Lord on Manticore, Sorcerer Lord, Daemon Prince of Khorne, Gaunt Summoners, shrines and Marauders. There are probably other good units (pending on army comp) but these are the ones that stand out to me.  
 

The sub factions are also interesting with ravages, despoilers and cabalists all having something that I can play around with. Yes both the Slaanesh and Tzeentch faction books are on a higher level of competitive play (but they are so compared to almost any other faction) but the StD offers a solid book that definitely can provide builds that can match most armies.

You misunderstand us. It's because we like it too, that it bothers us so much. Reading the book and warscrolls, it feels like GW intentionally held back to make sure the army wasn't too strong, and rolled back certain features/ideas. It's why some stuff feels really weird, such as the Warriors and Knights not feeling like elite units whatsoever, or the marks system pushing you, the "Chaos united army", into mono-god lists.

Another curious thing: the new Chaos Knight models do not give you a choice when putting them together, they wield the cursed lance and then have the ensorcelled weapon on their back or hips, as if the initial idea with the design had been for knights to use the lances on charge, then automatically switch to ensorcelled weapons. Instead, you're a cavalry unit that either does nothing especial on a charge, or wields a weapon that's dead weight after the charge.

 

Being a fan of Despoilers, for example, I'm bothered by how much it lacks synergy with its own army. Despoilers has a terrible time fitting in any battalions, and then has a couple elements that benefit your DPs/monsters, that's literally it. And yet, the monsters don't really synergize with each other, nor are they strong enough alone to make you run a list with them.

I've been playing them now almost every week after their release, and I constantly feel like the army lacks that extra oomph. StD has cool units, but its core is wobbly; most games leave me thinking "if only I could afford units of 10 Knights (or they packed a bit more damage), or some more marauders, or an extra monster..." While I do win games, it's usually due to points and always by a hair. I do less damage and resist less damage than most armies, and it shows.

[JackStreicher]

36 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

You misunderstand us. It's because we like it too, that it bothers us so much. Reading the book and warscrolls, it feels like GW intentionally held back to make sure the army wasn't too strong, and rolled back certain features/ideas.
....
I've been playing them now almost every week after their release, and I constantly feel like the army lacks that extra oomph. StD has cool units, but its core is wobbly; most games leave me thinking "if only I could afford units of 10 Knights (or they packed a bit more damage), or some more marauders, or an extra monster..." While I do win games, it's usually due to points and always by a hair. I do less damage and resist less damage than most armies, and it shows.

100% this

[Midjithero]

I think the biggest gripe for me when I’m choosing to run a God Book vs S2D allegiance is the fact that if you aren’t wholly within 12”/18” of a character, you gain ZERO benefit from the primary allegiance ability, the Mark Aura system.  Yes, you still benefit from your sub-allegiance abilities, but the other book’s units gain both.

Tzeentch warriors in DoT book get destiny dice regardless of character location and if you’re Host Duplicitous enemies can’t retreat within 3” for example.

slaanesh Marauders always explode 6s (and explode better) and get +1 charge for being Godseekers...

I Feel that S2D is supposed to be the “Undivided” book, and the Mark system and auras is great if you don’t want to play the god books...but the Undivided portion of the book should be loads stronger and worth taking.  Honestly, the pints of the units is great, because of the god-book abilities make them stronger, but the S2D allegiance abilities are weaker and not on par with the other books.  It should read something more like, “all units get a mark, and here’s your buff for taking that mark.  If you are within range of hero, he’s your secondary buff.  If you are within range of the general, here’s your tertiary/best possible buff!”

[JackStreicher]

34 minutes ago, Midjithero said:

I Feel that S2D is supposed to be the “Undivided” book, and the Mark system and auras is great if you don’t want to play the god books...but the Undivided portion of the book should be loads stronger and worth taking.  Honestly, the pints of the units is great, because of the god-book abilities make them stronger, but the S2D allegiance abilities are weaker and not on par with the other books.  It should read something more like, “all units get a mark, and here’s your buff for taking that mark.  If you are within range of hero, he’s your secondary buff.  If you are within range of the general, here’s your tertiary/best possible buff!”

Yep, included in the (custom) rules. =} I‘d really like for s.o. to test them and give me some feedback about whether the army felt more interesting and more on par with other armies:

On 2/23/2020 at 7:16 PM, JackStreicher said:

Something I've been working on. I'll test this asaic. Feedback after testing is appreciated
Chaos Resurgent.pdf

 

[NJohansson]

2 hours ago, Midjithero said:

I think the biggest gripe for me when I’m choosing to run a God Book vs S2D allegiance is the fact that if you aren’t wholly within 12”/18” of a character, you gain ZERO benefit from the primary allegiance ability, the Mark Aura system.  Yes, you still benefit from your sub-allegiance abilities, but the other book’s units gain both.

Tzeentch warriors in DoT book get destiny dice regardless of character location and if you’re Host Duplicitous enemies can’t retreat within 3” for example.

slaanesh Marauders always explode 6s (and explode better) and get +1 charge for being Godseekers...

I Feel that S2D is supposed to be the “Undivided” book, and the Mark system and auras is great if you don’t want to play the god books...but the Undivided portion of the book should be loads stronger and worth taking.  Honestly, the pints of the units is great, because of the god-book abilities make them stronger, but the S2D allegiance abilities are weaker and not on par with the other books.  It should read something more like, “all units get a mark, and here’s your buff for taking that mark.  If you are within range of hero, he’s your secondary buff.  If you are within range of the general, here’s your tertiary/best possible buff!”

Tzeentch actually only get their Locus ability (-1 to hit) when within proximity of heroes, and lot of other mono god abilities also only work in proximity (looking across the various books).

Saying that - I do agree that The Tzeentch or Slaanesh book are stronger. My point is that they are stronger than most everything. It feels like the suggested changes (if going on voiced opinion) are not to make the StD a good book (which I believe it is) but that it should be one of the best. Playing STD against Moongrots, Sylvaneth, Chaos Dwarfs, Stormcast (to name just a few) does not feel like the army lacks a real punch. Playing it against 3 Keepers, Eternal Conflagration Changehost or something on that power level - then it feels inadequate (although certain builds can give even said lists a real fighting chance).

All this is my subjective opinion but it really feels like lot of players are dissatisfied with the books internal balance (how bad warriors and knights are) and forget to see that most top builds are not that diversified across the board.

[Kurrilino]

1 hour ago, NJohansson said:

Tzeentch actually only get their Locus ability (-1 to hit) when within proximity of heroes, and lot of other mono god abilities also only work in proximity (looking across the various books).

Saying that - I do agree that The Tzeentch or Slaanesh book are stronger. My point is that they are stronger than most everything. It feels like the suggested changes (if going on voiced opinion) are not to make the StD a good book (which I believe it is) but that it should be one of the best. Playing STD against Moongrots, Sylvaneth, Chaos Dwarfs, Stormcast (to name just a few) does not feel like the army lacks a real punch. Playing it against 3 Keepers, Eternal Conflagration Changehost or something on that power level - then it feels inadequate (although certain builds can give even said lists a real fighting chance).

All this is my subjective opinion but it really feels like lot of players are dissatisfied with the books internal balance (how bad warriors and knights are) and forget to see that most top builds are not that diversified across the board.

I guess people agree that we don't even want this super special book.

We only want a playable book. AS book where you have options and the options do something. Best example is the shrine battalion.

It wouldn't hurt anyone at all if the shrine battalion would let the shrine prayer go off on a 2+ instead a 3+. This has nothing to do with over powered.

What we actually got is a battalion where the warshrine hits someone on a 6+ and does d3 mortal wounds.

Why marauders are stronger and cheaper than warriors is far beyond me.  And would a 3rd attack really make Knights overpowered especially when you have to run them with a 250+ point lord?

It's stuff like that that makes people vomit on their minis not that they want a special snowflake book. 

[Hannibal]

16 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

It's stuff like that that makes people vomit on their minis not that they want a special snowflake book. 

Well, while I do agree that StD miss some offensive power, I can not totally agree on this book being worse than others when it comes down to internal balance / missing synergies. Besides Tzeentch (which showed that there are different highly competetive builds right now) every single battletome has 1-2 outstanding combos / subfactions and the rest ist just subpar. That´s not a problem of StD, that´s a problem how GW writes rules.

The two problems StD has is that (1) they totally lack any outstandig and powerful combo and (2) that most of their good to very good work better in god alliances .

[Kurrilino]

4 hours ago, Hannibal said:

Well, while I do agree that StD miss some offensive power, I can not totally agree on this book being worse than others when it comes down to internal balance / missing synergies. Besides Tzeentch (which showed that there are different highly competetive builds right now) every single battletome has 1-2 outstanding combos / subfactions and the rest ist just subpar. That´s not a problem of StD, that´s a problem how GW writes rules.

The two problems StD has is that (1) they totally lack any outstandig and powerful combo and (2) that most of their good to very good work better in god alliances .

i don't know... if half of the units don't even interact with the book i would call it an utter failure..

I really don't care about being competitive or tournaments. I just want to have fun and so far i don't have any. Neither building lists or playing.

[Agent of Chaos]

@Gistradagis @Kurrilino

Thank you both for the feedback and thoughts on my list. I'm one of those that would have benefited greatly if the power units of the new tome were warriors, knights & chariots. For now I only own 20 marauders, no warshrine, no manticore lords, endless spells or warcry stuff, and like many on this thread am trying to make it work so any and all advice is appreciated 🙂 

I actually played a game (Escalation vs Beasts of Chaos) before I saw your comments (only variation being to swap out the knights for another unit of marauder horsemen and furies). We didnt finish but even with a couple of turns played it was fair to say you were pretty much spot on with your assessments.  

My marauders sat behind my warriors ready to counter charge but plan A was always to teleport them and charge onto whichever edge objective was weaker. Unfortunately I never managed to cast mask of darkness 😞 Even if I cast it turn 3 or 4, by then its too late as Im way down on points. The chaos lord was there to make the counter punching marauders fight twice (didnt eventuate), or give extra punch to the warriors holding the objective (used once and as expected the warriors were mediocre twice).  

I liked Be'lakor for general for the 4+/ 5+/ 6+ but it was probably unnecessary as once his ability has gone off he isnt much of a target for the opponent. I also feel I put too much faith in the Undivided mark. The 6+ FNP came up a couple of times but didnt really matter. However I do think there is value in battleshock immunity, especially in an army that is clearly hungry for CP while needing to run heaps of low bravery models, even warriors are only 6 and even without needing inspiring presence I started turn 1 with 5CP and had used them all by turn 2.

I liked being able to cast (attempt to cast anyway) daemonic power and something else each turn, and giving out reroll saves to 2 units, but maybe it is a bit much with Be'lakor as well. Given your thoughts on Call to Glory  you may enjoy this... I cast it on the sword of judgement Daemon Prince, gave him reroll saves and popped his command ability, charged over the front lines and into the Doombull. Rolled 4 hits but only one 5 , causing 4 mortal wounds. I rerolled the 3 hits to fish for 5's & 6's (thanks to the dam spell) and rolled three 2's... My claw attacks managed another 2 wounds, leaving the Doombull on 2. He obliterated me in return, enabling his Bullgors to make a charge they would have failed had the DP done his job 😞 Meanwhile the other DP with an axe needed two turns to kill a 6 wound chariot. The Daemon Princes lack killing power (along with most of the army it seems) and Despoilers might be a trap build. Be'lakor and one khorne DP for the sweet command ability might be all thats needed in which case Ravagers might be the better option.

I have gone the Ethereal Amulet DP before and he was tanky but I had heard good things about sword of judgement and dont know if Ive given up that build just yet. Problem is you want the khorne DP hanging back for the awesome command ability, not suicidal charging over the front lines into enemy heroes. Theres a good slaves list in here for me somewhere guys but Im still struggling...