AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[SwampHeart]

With the KO changes I've shifted gears back to LC (using KO allies ironically enough). Played a little 3 round local tournament this past weekend and went 3-0 with the following list:
 

Spoiler

Dreadlord on Black Dragon - General <Ironoak Skin>, Lance of Spite <Spear of the Hunt> & Repeater Crossbow
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage - Ironoak Skin
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit - Ally
10x Handgunners
10x Handgunners
10x Handgunners
3x Scourge Runner Chariots 
10x Shadow Warriors
4x Desolators
Grundstok Gunhauler - Ally
Extra Command Point
1960/2000
111 Wounds

Notes:

-My opponents were - OBR: Places of Arcane Power, IDK: Starstrike, Maggotkin: Focal Points.
-I was impressed with the army's ability to exert board control and deal with multiple threats. That said I've got a fair chunk riding in the Hidden Paths contingent (Desolators, Dreadlord, and Hurricanum every game).
-I beat OBR because of Hidden Paths, I gave him the double going in to turn 2 and he was forced to commit which gave me big openings to exploit with my movement tricks.
-Adding the KO fly high with the blaster that is the Endrinmaster adds another level of headache for opponents. Now they have to both screen Hidden Paths as well as a constantly board traversing gun boat/mini cannon. 
-Scourge Runner Chariots continue to impress, 18 M12 wounds is just never not good. They do die but they usually give something a black eye first and require a larger commitment of resources than they're worth to get rid of. 

I was using borrowed models for this event but given how much I enjoyed playing it I think this is going to be my hobby project for the next year. I'm going to focus on heavy conversions for nearly every unit and I'm excited to challenge myself hobbywise with this list. 


 

[rockmanko]

On 1/21/2020 at 12:44 AM, SwampHeart said:

With the KO changes I've shifted gears back to LC (using KO allies ironically enough). Played a little 3 round local tournament this past weekend and went 3-0 with the following list:
 

  Hide contents

Dreadlord on Black Dragon - General <Ironoak Skin>, Lance of Spite <Spear of the Hunt> & Repeater Crossbow
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage - Ironoak Skin
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit - Ally
10x Handgunners
10x Handgunners
10x Handgunners
3x Scourge Runner Chariots 
10x Shadow Warriors
4x Desolators
Grundstok Gunhauler - Ally
Extra Command Point
1960/2000
111 Wounds

Notes:

-My opponents were - OBR: Places of Arcane Power, IDK: Starstrike, Maggotkin: Focal Points.
-I was impressed with the army's ability to exert board control and deal with multiple threats. That said I've got a fair chunk riding in the Hidden Paths contingent (Desolators, Dreadlord, and Hurricanum every game).
-I beat OBR because of Hidden Paths, I gave him the double going in to turn 2 and he was forced to commit which gave me big openings to exploit with my movement tricks.
-Adding the KO fly high with the blaster that is the Endrinmaster adds another level of headache for opponents. Now they have to both screen Hidden Paths as well as a constantly board traversing gun boat/mini cannon. 
-Scourge Runner Chariots continue to impress, 18 M12 wounds is just never not good. They do die but they usually give something a black eye first and require a larger commitment of resources than they're worth to get rid of. 

I was using borrowed models for this event but given how much I enjoyed playing it I think this is going to be my hobby project for the next year. I'm going to focus on heavy conversions for nearly every unit and I'm excited to challenge myself hobbywise with this list. 


 

ever consider Concussors over Desolator?

Or just point cost consideration?

[SwampHeart]

5 hours ago, rockmanko said:

ever consider Concussors over Desolator?

 

I have but its an 80 point increase which just isn't in the list. I can at most cut another 20 points out that list and feel remotely comfortable with what it does. 

[swarmofseals]

I've been procrastinating actually building and painting a 2K Cities list. My first inclination was to play Hallowheart but didn't pull the trigger due to the likelihood of nerfs (I expected Soulscream Bridge to get nerfed, but it didn't). Hallowheart is still great, but I do think it's also the most likely to get further nerfed in the future so I'm still leaning away from that.

So I've been considering Living City, and I have a couple of reasons for that:

Spoiler

 

• I want to make a heavy shooting counter-meta army. 
• I'd like to also be good against shooting/heavy magic
• I'd like to avoid being reliant on Soulscream Bridge
• If possible, I'd prefer something that has a dynamic playstyle, can be  unpredictable and has a relatively high skill cap. 

 

All of those factors lead me to Living City:

Spoiler

 

• Tempest Eye is probably the strongest shooting army, but it's much more reliant on Soulscream Bridge. I think Living City shooting can be strong enough. Being able to threaten to shoot from multiple angles also means that it's harder for your opponent to rely on terrain to hide.
• Being able to deploy with most of your key units off the table means you should always get the key first strike against a conventional shooting army. Living City is not required to drop on the first turn either, so it can even get the first strike against some builds that also deploy off table.
• Living City definitely does not need bridge.
• Movement shenanigans and being able to deploy in many different configurations should make Living City less predictable and more dynamic.

 

In my opinion, there are a few components that need to be considered for basically any Living City list:

Spoiler

• An ambushing melee component. This component needs to be a melee heavy-hitter that can also shoot >9". The obvious choices are Dreadlord on Black Dragon, Durthu, and Desolators. 
• A heavy ranged component. The most likely candidates are Darkshards, Freeguild Handgunners, Freeguild Crossbows, Sisters of the Watch, and Irondrakes. These will be complimented by the appropriate support units.
• A fast component, ideally with a missile attack. The most likely candidates are Gyrocopters, Gyrobombers, Scourgerunner Chariots, Freeguild Outriders and Freeguild Pistoliers. Another option that fits in here but is a bit different are Shadow Warriors.

The essential strategy is to leverage your ability to threaten a huge portion of the table at any given point in time while also maintaining the ability to concentrate your firepower very effectively. This should give you a lot of options, and force your opponent to account for a lot of possibilities. I think it will take a good player to play such a list up to it's potential, but it also gives your opponents a lot of opportunities to make mistakes. The combination of deepstriking and range attacks puts your opponent in a bind: they want to spread out to limit where you can deepstrike to, but the more the spread out the more difficult it will be for them to respond when you commit. If they spread out too much, they will be easier to defeat in detail. If they spread out too little, they give you command of the board and a big edge in the objective game. 

The melee component of the list can serve a couple of purposes. It can be a distraction carnifex or a way to heavily punish an opponent who does not fully account for it. The problem is that it can be very expensive and is overall less efficient. It also requires significant CPs to function. I worry that good opponents will be able to screen out and effectively neutralize this part of your army at least some of the time, which could be enough to make it difficult to actually win tournaments. That said, the potential is so high and it does diversify your strategy quite a bit. I'm having a hard time deciding whether I want to invest in this or not. 

The fast component of the list will never do anything flashy, but I suspect that some fast units are very necessary. The problem with foot shooters (particularly ones that don't want to be moving) is that they are going to have a harder time helping with objectives. The list needs to be able to recapture objectives quickly after shooting enemy units off them. Units that can move 20+" in a single turn are ideally fit for this purpose.

Some thoughts on specific choices for the melee component (if taken):

Spoiler

Desolators are the most efficient options but require a ton of investment as they need to be brought in with a hero as well. The total single turn WDR for 6 Desolators is .095 (including both shooting and melee). That drops to .086 for 4 Desolators.

A Dreadlord on Black Dragon with Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt is .066, or .068 with just Ghyrstrike. That does not include his command ability. With his CA as well, it's .071/.073 respectively. With no bonuses other than his CA he's at .068. 

Durthu is .069 at baseline. With Ironoak Artisan alone that goes up to .08. With Ghyrstrike alone it's .093 and with Wardroth Horn alone it's also .093. With Wardroth Horn and Ironoak Artisan it's .107. 

All of these options benefit from additional support relatively equally, so that's not a big deciding factor.

This leads me to a number of thoughts:

• The Dreadlord is likely the most reliable option as a 12" flying move-after-shoot and a flying charge means it should have a higher chance of hitting a desirable target. 
• The Dreadlord and Durthu, when given minimal investment, are roughly equivalent in efficiency on offense, although Durthu likely has a bit more staying power.
• Desolators are midrange reliable with a 10" move, but their ranged attack only having a 12" range is a little awkward. The also have a larger total footprint on the table, which makes terrain more of a problem. That said, they also have higher efficiency levels than anything but a fully kitted Durthu. The points cost is substantial though, and they need at least one hero to deepstrike with them.
• Durthu has the highest top-end efficiency and is capable of getting a 2+ save with Ironoak Artisan. With the rr1s to save CA that means he can tie up rendless troops indefinitely. That said, he is also the least reliable with only a 5" move. He is easy for the opponent to screen out with minimal effort.

and conclusions:

• If you want a small melee component/distraction carnifex, the Dreadlord on Black Dragon option is ideal. He isn't super efficient but he can get where you need him to go much more reliably. 
• If you want to a heavy melee component, then Desolators are probably the way to go and if you really want to lay it on thick then the combination of Desolators plus Dreadlord is a good one, although at that point it's definitely not a distraction carnifex.
• Durthu has some great qualities, but I just don't see him being practical with the low move.

Some thoughts on specific choices for the speed component:

Spoiler

Pistoliers shooting once have a WDR of .044 shooting once and .089 shooting twice. 

Outriders have a WDR of .044.

Scourgerunner Chariots have a WDR of .065 or .084 depending on if in a unit of 1 or of 3 models respectively.

Gyrocopters with brimstone guns have a WDR of .025/.03 depending on if in a unit of 1 or of 3 models respectively. Bombs add an additional . 051/.06.

Gyrobombers have a WDR of .022/.025 depending on if in a unit of 1 or of 3 models respectively. Bombs add an additional .045/.051 per drop.

Shadow warriors have a WDR of .04/.067 depending on if they are in cover. Their melee profile is also not terrible.

Also noteworthy is that Outriders can run and shoot, which means they will be a bit faster than the other options. 

Thoughts:

• The gyro options are only worthwhile offensively if they are dropping bombs, which will probably interfere with their role if you are taking them as part of the speed component. Double bombing with Gyrobombers is a sexy option, but will probably be pretty fiddly in practice. Steam Guns could be fantastic, but with short range they don't work well with the "fast" role.
• Scourgerunner chariots have nice range and nice efficiency, but their model count is a bit lower which might occasionally matter. Their bases are also quite large, which can be an advantage or disadvantage.  Advantage: great for clogging up the board and restricting enemy movement. Disadvantage: terrain will get in the way.
• Pistoliers hit pretty hard but only if they shoot twice which requires charging. This does mean they can clear off lightly held objectives by themselves more easily, but their 9" range is impractical. This can be fixed by giving the champion a repeater handgun, which reduces the unit damage when charging by a bit but keeps them flexible. 
• Outriders are the fastest option in the group and have a respectable model count.
• It's noteworthy that if you are taking a Knight-Azyros as your general, both Pistoliers and Outriders can keep up with him/her as the Honored Retinue. 
• Shadow Warriors function a bit differently in that they can threaten to drop in anywhere and take a lightly held objective. A single unit of Shadow Warriors is a heavy favorite to take an objective from a 10 man chaff unit, although they will likely need a hero close enough to use a CP in order to take the objective the turn they drop in. That's actually better performance than Pistoliers. Depending on the battleplan and opponent, Shadow Warriors might be a better bet to threaten backfield objectives than the other units on this list, but once they drop they are a lot less mobile. If you deploy them off table they of course don't help increase your Hidden Pathways count, so that's a bit of a bummer.

Conclusions:

• Gyro units are probably best considered part of the ranged hammer that can switch hit as fast units if needed. I wouldn't take them as primary in the fast unit role.
• All of the other options look viable and attractive for different purposes. Outriders are probably the best at picking up cleared objectives and adding a little firepower as they zip around while Pistoliers are more capable of clearing lightly held objectives on their own. I do think giving the champion a repeater handgun will be important. Scourgerunner chariots are the most efficient option and great for restricting enemy movement but are slightly worse objective grabbers and can get clunky if there is a lot of terrain.
• A unit or two of Shadow Warriors should be considered but I wouldn't go nuts on them.

Some thoughts on specific choices for the ranged hammer component:

Spoiler

I've done a lot of the combat efficiency math for ranged units earlier in the thread, so if you want a more detailed breakdown check up thread. I'll put the WDR numbers here. I'll include both first turn deepstrike numbers and fully buffed numbers.  Deepstrike numbers assume the presence of buffs that don't need to be triggered in the hero phase (eg: hurricanum). These numbers are for min sized squads.

Sisters of the Watch: .112 deepstrike/.112 full buff (stand and shoot: .059)

Handgunners: .081/.1 (stand and shoot: .065/.1)

Crossbows: .091/.139

Irondrakes: .113/.139 (single runelord buff)

Irondrakes with Longbeards: .132/.162

Darkshards:  .083/.083

Thoughts:

• I think it's worth noting that Sisters of the Watch and Irondrakes both outperform any of the melee options for first turn deepstrike damage, crossbows are almost equal to Desolators and Handgunners/Darkshards aren't far behind.
• Range can't be ignored. When you think about the mechanics of deepstriking, ranges below 18" are problematic. At 18", you can deepstrike in at the 6" mark and hit the centerpoint of the table. This makes it very difficult for the opponent to hide anything from your shooting on the first turn unless they commit resources to zoning you out of their edge of the table and commit their key units to sit behind the center line on their side of the table, and no more than 12" to either side of the center point. A 24" range is almost impossible to hide from. If your shooters only have a 16" range, then the opponent can push up to 2" onto your side of the board and only need to be inside 14" of the the center point laterally. More importantly, they don't need to cover their own side of the table as long as they are >22" from their own board edge. Furthermore, you really want to avoid being in a situation where your opponent can contest side objectives while still being out of range of your deepstrike shooting. The following battleplans have lateral objectives that can be contested from a position that is out of range of 16" deepstriking shooters: Blood and Glory, Border War, Three Places of Power, Knife to the Heart (sortof), Total Conquest, Duality of Death, Focal Points, and Places of Arcane Power. All of the random objective missions can also end up in this category some of the time. That's a lot of battleplans where a clever opponent can ruin your ability to drop and shoot with 16" ranged guys while still playing the objectives.
• Sisters, Crossbows, and Irondrakes all lose half of their shooting power (roughly) if they move, so they really want to sit in one spot and unload. 
• Handgunners lose a little from moving, but Darkshards lose nothing.
• That said, Handgunners and Darkshards are also the least efficient options, with Darkshards losing by a fair margin particularly when the other options are fully buffed.
• Handgunners have the most efficient stand and shoot
• Handgunners ,Crossbows, and Darkshards are unconditional battleline
• Sisters of the Watch are the easiest to fully buff
• Crossbows have the biggest delta between drop-in and peak efficiency
• Sisters of the Watch are a little more consistent in their damage across armor types, whereas Crossbows struggle against really heavy armor. Sisters also have a higher standard deviation in their damage, so they will run hot and cold a bit more than Crossbows which are very consistent particularly when fully buffed.

Conclusions:

• As sweet as Irondrake damage output is, I just don't see them as being a good choice for this strategy because of the 16" range. Handgunners also probably aren't a great option to focus on heavily for the same reason, although they have utility as a screening unit and their long rifles do chip in some damage at very long range.
• Darkshards have the double whammy of short range and lower efficiency. I don't think their mobility can justify taking them largely because Scourgerunner Chariots are just as good damagewise and are far more mobile (and more defensively efficient, too!). The only reason I can envision taking any Darkshards is as a single minimum size unit to use as sacrifice fodder for a Sorceress.
• Thus the main body of the ranged strike force is going to be some mix of Sisters of the Watch or Freeguild Crossbows, but beyond that I'm really not sure. Both units have clear advantages and disadvantages (see above). Having a significant number of Crossbows will prevent the opponent from hiding anything from your ranged fire. Solely relying on Sisters of the Watch will likely force you to take a Nomad Prince general to unlock them as battleline. Taking a lot of Crossbows will pretty much back you into taking a Freeguild General though, as its command ability is super important to maximizing their efficiency. Sisters of the Watch have the highest first turn damage, but Crossbows have higher followup damage against most targets. I suspect a mix is the best option.

Some thoughts on support units and heroes:

Spoiler

There is a clear set of buffing/support units and heroes to consider: Nomad Prince, Freeguild General, Runelord, Knight-Azyros, Celestial Hurricanum, Luminark, Knight-Incantor, Longbeards, and Sorceress. 

• Nomad Prince as the general unlocks Sisters of the Watch as battleline, and the command ability can keep Sisters at peak efficiency even if your Hurricanum get's destroyed. Hawk ability is also nice.
• Freeguild General massively buffs Handgunners and Crossbowmen on subsequent turns
• The Runelord has a nice dispel/unbind, buffs Irondrakes and can unlock Irondrake battleline if taken as the general. As I don't think Irondrakes are a good option, I'm probably leaving this guy at home.
• Knight-Azyros is a little bit fiddly but the target-based rr1's to hit can be really strong and the lantern ability will be very strong is some situations. His speed can be helpful in making sure you have a hero in the right place to use the Living City command ability on a unit that needs it. I think he's a good option as the general as he can really benefit from the extra protection of the Honored Retinue, but that's only workable if you don't need to unlock additional battleline options.
• Celestial Hurricanum is a no-brainer and will be included without question. I could even imagine taking it without the battlemage if the points are needed elsewhere, but I suspect that the battlemage will still be worth it. Although unlikely, I could even imagine taking two.
• Luminark is solid, but I think the beam weapon is worse than the Hurricanum's Storms of Shemtek, and I don't really see it being useful enough otherwise to justify the cost.
• Knight-Incantor is mostly attractive for the automatic unbind. He's going to be gold against an opponent who really needs to resolve a specific spell, so he should be considered if specific matchups become a concern. I think this list should be pretty strong against Soulscream Bridge lists already, but I could see Darkfire Daemonrift being a real problem.
• Longbeards are only useful if you are going really heavy on Irondrakes, so probably not worth considering further.
• Sorceress is an interesting option. Her spell is nice, and being able to get +2 to cast is really good if you end up wanting to add one or more endless spells (see below)

Some thoughts on endless spells:

Spoiler

The only one I can really imagine wanting to take is Soulscream Bridge, and I actually think that it could be really good even though it's expensive. I know the whole point of the list is to not rely on Soulscream Bridge, but that doesn't mean that it isn't worth seriously considering.

One of the main weaknesses of the list is that if an opponent can screen off a large portion of the table edge they can force the main body of your force to come down quite a distance from the action. You might still be able to deal a lot of damage with shooting, but still be left in a position where it's very difficult to follow-up. Having access to bridge largely fixes this problem. Even if the enemy manages to zone you out on turn 1, you should be far enough away to avoid serious retaliation and then get a chance to bridge in on turn 2. 

Another major strength is that you can choose to forego deepstriking and play like a traditional bridge list in matchups/battleplans where that is advantageous. 

If the list is supposed to stretch your opponent's resources to their limits and provide ample opportunities to force errors and then capitalize on them, bridge definitely adds yet another dimension to that strategy. 

Some thoughts on drop count:

Spoiler

The conventional wisdom is (correctly) to minimize drops when possible. Having the choice of the first turn order is a big deal. While the need to be 4 or 5 drops or fewer is a bit overstated, I think, the general rule remains that the lower your drop count is the more likely you will have the choice of turn order.

There is no realistic way to make this list low drop. The Living City battalion is pretty bad and brings nothing that this strategy actually wants. The absolute slimmest you can get is 6 drops, and I don't think that is even a good list. 7 or 8 is more doable.

Given that, I think it's worth considering four factors which might make this one of the rare builds that actually wants to be high drop:

• By taking multiple small units (particularly for the speed component) like single Scourgerunner Chariots or Gyrocopters, you enable the possibility of starting with the vast majority of your points off the table
• By bloating your drop count you can force your opponent to commit to deployment before you actually put any of your key units on the board (or in reserve). At a bare minimum this allows you to deploy with more complete information, which will help you concentrate your force and limit your opponent's concentration of force more effectively. If you also have access to Soulscream Bridge or if the battleplan enables it, you can react to your opponent's deployment by completely altering your tactics. If your opponent deploys wide in order to protect the board edge, you can castle center and bridge him. If your opponent chooses not to protect the edge, then you deploy in the Hidden Pathways and drop him. 
• This strategy cares a lot less than most about going first or second. If the opponent makes you go first, your fast units will enable an early advantage in the objectives game and you will get to hit your opponent with a full barrage before they go. If they go first, then they can't touch your key units (which are probably off the table), and open themselves up to getting double turned which will probably be fatal. There are probably specific matchup and battleplan combinations where you will care about going first or second, but I think most of the time you will be well positioned to capitalize on either option. 
• A minor point, but ranged units are slightly more effective in a MSU configuration as you get a greater degree of control over targeting. Sisters of the Watch, Handgunners and Irondrakes all get substantial bonuses from unit champions as well.

So with all that in mind, I'm inclined to not really care about having a high drop count and might even intentionally try for high drop. 

The absolutely most simple list is something like:

Nomad Prince (general)

Celestial Hurricanum with battlemage

2x 30 Sisters of the Watch

20 Sisters of the Watch

5x1 Scourgerunner Chariot

 

I'm pretty unsatisfied with that though, so I'm going to continue working on it.

 

I think I've written enough XD so I'm going to leave it there for the moment and come back to add in some more specific list ideas later. 

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

I think I've written enough XD so I'm going to leave it there for the moment and come back to add in some more specific list ideas later. 

I enjoyed the read (probably helps that I agree with basically all of it, you can check my list above and find basically the same outcome). If I may I'd suggest looking at possibly adding KO allies - the new Fly High ability is from the warscroll rather than the book which can add a huge chunk of late game maneuvering to your army as well. 

[rockmanko]

5 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

I enjoyed the read (probably helps that I agree with basically all of it, you can check my list above and find basically the same outcome). If I may I'd suggest looking at possibly adding KO allies - the new Fly High ability is from the warscroll rather than the book which can add a huge chunk of late game maneuvering to your army as well. 

whats your weapon choice of the dreadlord?

blade / spear?

[SwampHeart]

12 hours ago, rockmanko said:

whats your weapon choice of the dreadlord?

blade / spear?

I run Spear/Crossbow

[willange]

7 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

I run Spear/Crossbow

Any reason why not Spear/Shield?  I would think the shield was worth more.

[Cerve]

1 hour ago, willange said:

Any reason why not Spear/Shield?  I would think the shield was worth more.

Because you set him on flank, he comes, shoot at something just for trigger the Command Ability, he moves, and then charge. The crossobow is mandatory for triggering this (the spite it's only 8" and you must set up more than 9" from the opponent).

 

 

Anyway I still prefer Drycha on him. Both will die after the first charge, and betweent shooting and melee Drycha just put way more damage than the Lord. I tried both but Drycha is oustanding with her 36 dice(and a bunch of MWs as well).

Edited January 25, 2020 by Cerve

[swarmofseals]

3 hours ago, Cerve said:

Anyway I still prefer Drycha on him. Both will die after the first charge, and betweent shooting and melee Drycha just put way more damage than the Lord. I tried both but Drycha is oustanding with her 36 dice(and a bunch of MWs as well).

Can you even use Drycha's mercurial aspect if she isn't on the table?

Assuming you can, her single turn WDR is .081 which is indeed quite a bit better than the dreadlord. She only moves 9" though and doesn't fly, so that's something to consider.

[Cerve]

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Can you even use Drycha's mercurial aspect if she isn't on the table?

Assuming you can, her single turn WDR is .081 which is indeed quite a bit better than the dreadlord. She only moves 9" though and doesn't fly, so that's something to consider.

Mmm...you know that I don't know? I always assumed I can...it's a mistake? I'm in doubt now

[SwampHeart]

10 hours ago, Cerve said:

Mmm...you know that I don't know? I always assumed I can...it's a mistake? I'm in doubt now

You cannot, she isn't on the table at the start of the battle round.

I've tried Drycha and she doesn't get the job done for me most of the time. M9, no fly, 10 wounds, just doesn't hold the same weight at the Dreadlord. The Dreadlord has more flexibility and is eligible for the Fight First on the Charge spear from Living City which means you get to choose the first two combats on the turn you ambush.

[swarmofseals]

On 1/23/2020 at 1:46 PM, SwampHeart said:

I enjoyed the read (probably helps that I agree with basically all of it, you can check my list above and find basically the same outcome). If I may I'd suggest looking at possibly adding KO allies - the new Fly High ability is from the warscroll rather than the book which can add a huge chunk of late game maneuvering to your army as well. 

Thanks, glad to hear it. I definitely noticed your list, although I'd say you're primary strategy is the melee ambush with the ranged component being secondary. The KO stuff is interesting for the lategame flexibility as you say, but they are really inefficient compared to the other options. They don't benefit from the LC command ability, so they can't really fly high and then clear an objective -- they can only drop in on an objective that you've already cleared. In that case I think the more efficient fast options should likely suffice. If I get enough testing in and find that having something that could fly high in the lategame is useful though I'll definitely consider it.

 

Here is a very rough draft of a list:

Spoiler

Leaders:

Knight-Azyros (general: Druid of the Ever-Spring Circle - Lifesurge)  [100]

Freeguild General (adjutant, Deepmire Cloak) [100]

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (Lifesurge) [280]

 

Battleline:

10 Freeguild Handgunners (long rifle) [100]

30 Freeguild Crossbowmen [300]

20 Freeguild Crossbowmen [200]

 

Other:

2x 10 Sisters of the Watch [320]

5 Freeguild Outriders (honored retinue) [100]

4x 1 Scourgerunner Chariot [240]

1 Gyrocopter (steam gun) [70]

10 Shadow Warriors [110]

 

Endless Spells:

Soulscream Bridge (80)

Typically the KA, Outriders, Chariots, and Gyrocopter will start on the table and everything else will be in the Hidden Pathways. That allows me to deepstrike roughly 2/3s of my points. 

Assuming everything is within range when I drop in except the Gyrocopter, and not counting the Knight Azyros rerolls total first turn damage output should be something like:

13.5 MW

81.55 r0

20.33 r1

In the edge cases where I deploy in a castle formation using bridge the damage output will be higher.

I could get an extra +1 to cast for bridge by adding a Sorceress and swapping the Handgunners and Shadow Warriors for Darkshards and a Sorceress, but that would also require adding another Scourgerunner Chariot. I suppose I could swap 10 Sisters of the Watch for 10 more Crossbows and a Scourgerunner, but I'm really not convinced that it's worth it. The Hurricanum still resolves bridge 83% of the time, and in the deepstrike scenario you will have had a turn to kill any wizards that could threaten to unbind. I'm sure there will be some matchups where you'd rather have the Sorceress package, but I bet it's pretty small relative to what you are giving up.

Another possible change would be to cut the Shadow Warriors for a second Knight-Azyros (who would be the adjutant in this case). That change would also allow you to cut a Scourgerunner Chariot and 10 Crossbows to beef up one of the Sisters of the Watch units to 20. That would reduce your first turn rend 0 damage by .67 and rend 1 damage by 6.89 but would increase your mortal wounds by 2.11, give you a more functional adjutant and increase the likelihood of getting rr1s to hit. 

[spenson]

Hey all,

I am considering playing in a 2x1000 points tournament in a few months. I'd play with some DoK (the typical slaughterqueen on cauldron, medusa, hag, 30+10 witches).

I didn't really know which city to pick for smaller games. Hallowheart, Greywater Fastness and Hammerhal seem to be better in bigger games. Tempest's Eye would be my second choice.

It's quite tough to make a CoS list in smaller games but this is what I ended up with:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Living City
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
- General
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Leaves - Cage of Thorns (Living City Wizard)
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
30 x Phoenix Guard (420)
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Total: 990 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 57

I'm not really sure about the artefact. Spear of the hunt gets the anointed's 4 attacks to rend -2 but the jade diadem or the greenglade flask would make him even tankier. I gave druid of the everspring to my general to be able to cast ironoak skin + pha's protection or the endless spell in the same turn. Ironoak artisan also looks really nice.

Maybe I could replace the emerald lifeswarm with the purple sun but I don't have any bonus to cast spells so a 6+ is way more reliable than 8+.

Another list option would be to replace the longbeards and the endless spell with a unit of tree-revenants and a unit of bleakswords but I'm not really fan since I don't have any wildwood.

Edited January 25, 2020 by spenson

[Zeblasky]

I think Jade Diadem is a must pick for Phoenix with Anointed. This artefact does works on saves after saves, right? If I am correct, then with witness to destiny you have double the chance to roll 6 and turn a frost bird into a perfect distraction carnifex.

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, Zeblasky said:

I think Jade Diadem is a must pick for Phoenix with Anointed. This artefact does works on saves after saves, right? If I am correct, then with witness to destiny you have double the chance to roll 6 and turn a frost bird into a perfect distraction carnifex.

It doesn't. In the AOS rules "save" refers explicitly to the roll based on the warscroll's save characteristic. We refer to other defensive rolls as saves colloquially, but they aren't considered a save in the actual rules. It's similar to the logic as to why something that increases damage doesn't increase the mortal wounds that a spell deals. We refer to that as spell damage, but in actual rules terms damage refers specifically to the damage characteristic of an attack and nothing else. 

[spenson]

It only work on unmodified armor save rolls of 6. However with witness to destiny and some heal he can make a ton of save rolls before dying. 

I think the flamespyre is way too random to be worth it unless you play more than 1.

[swarmofseals]

Here's another list, a bit heavier on Sisters of the Watch:

Spoiler

Leaders:

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (general, Iron Oak Artisan, Greenglade Flask) [280]

 

Battleline:

2x 10 Handgunners (long rifle) [200]

30 Crossbowmen  [300]

 

Other:

30 Sisters of the Watch [480]

20 Sisters of the Watch [320]

10 Sisters of the Watch [160]

3x 1 Scourgerunner Chariot [180]

 

Endless Spells:

Soulscream Bridge [80]

Average turn 1 damage (assuming only the handgunner champions shoot) is about:

24.08 MW

5.78 R1

97 R0

 

So roughly similar to my earlier list, except you can start with 80% of your points off the table, the damage output is a bit higher (note though that the other list's calculations do not factor in the Knight-Azyros), and the overall stand and shoot response is much heavier. The downside is that it only has one hero for battleplans that value heroes, it's damage is a little more skewed towards shorter range, and it has far fewer fast units which increases the likelihood that you will be playing from behind on VP. 

[Macha]

Hey! I'm a newbie with this city, running some Units I quite liked. My favorite is sisters of the watch, style wise, but I am wondering if I understood their rules right, because they seem very strong indeed...

 

...is it correct that, if I set them up via hidden path, they count as not moved (Setup) and they get their attack bonus? I can't find any real clarification on it, and the only mention in this forum the search engine got me is the designer's commentary on the core rules, which just stated:

Q: Some abilities allow you to remove a unit from the battlefield and set it up again, and say that this ‘counts as their move for the movement phase’ (or words to that effect). Do these units count as having made a move for the purposes of any other rules or abilities?

A: No, it simply restricts them from making a move later on.

Which seems hardly conclusive. On the other hand, most comments on the sisters mention "teleporting them in and putting on the hurt", which seems to stem from the +1 Attack. Was I playing it right?

 

I quite like the whole idea of flanking and attacking from multiple sides, but I don't want to cheat, either.

 

[SwampHeart]

48 minutes ago, Macha said:

is it correct that, if I set them up via hidden path, they count as not moved (Setup) and they get their attack bonus?

Yes, per the FAQ arriving from reserves doesn't count as having moved - only that you cannot move further in that phase. Sisters who arrive via hidden path get their +1 attack bonus. 

[Aelfric]

I would also add that the Soulscream Bridge works the same way.

[a74xhx]

Is there anything at all you can take in Living City to generate extra CPs, other than via a General's adjunct? Happy to ally from anywhere. Been looking, but can't spot anything.

[Landohammer]

7 hours ago, a74xhx said:

Is there anything at all you can take in Living City to generate extra CPs, other than via a General's adjunct? Happy to ally from anywhere. Been looking, but can't spot anything.

So outside of the obvious choices of Viridian Pathfinders battalion or just flat out buying CP, the only option I know of is the Penumbral Engine. Its 100 points though 😓

[a74xhx]

4 hours ago, Landohammer said:

So outside of the obvious choices of Viridian Pathfinders battalion or just flat out buying CP, the only option I know of is the Penumbral Engine. Its 100 points though 😓

The engine almost feels worth it, but I don't trust the swingyness of it. It could easily get stuck on the other effect. Plus you need to babysit it with another unit. 

[Zeblasky]

So, I've recently come up with this build:

 

Quote

 

Wanderers with SEM galore

Play Type: Matched | Game Type: Battlehost | Grand Alliance: Order | Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
Stronghold: Living City Realm of Battle: GHYRAN, The Realm of LIFE

Extra Command Point Purchased (50pts)

Leaders:

Nomad Prince 120pts General Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan

Treelord Ancient 260pts Spell: Lifesurge

Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix 320pts Artefact: Jade Diadem

Dreadlord on Black Dragon 300pts Weapons: Lance of Spite and Repeater Crossbow

 

Battleline:

Sisters of the Watch Quantity: 20  320pts

Sisters of the Watch Quantity: 20  320pts

Sisters of the Thorn Quantity: 5 130pts Spell: Lifesurge

Sisters of the Thorn Quantity: 5 130pts Spell: Ironoak Skin

Endless Spells
Emerald Lifeswarm 50pts

Total: 2000/2000pts

 

Here I have 2 CP from the start and 2x20 Sisters with Treeman and Dreadlord in Hidden paths. This gives me a possibility of a double charge on turn 1 from Treeman and Dreadlord with 20x2 Sisters of the Watch supporting from their back while hoping that Phoenix can make an 8 inch charge from across the board as well(and even if he does not, he will be an amazing Distraction Carnifex if turn 1 I'm not going first). 3 casters give pretty good magic support in general and for triggering Phoenix + 1 to save specifically.  Could drop an extra CP and Emerald Lifeswarm for 10 Dryads, but not sure if this really worth it here. Sure, just having Dryads is more of a reliable investment, but then turn 1 charging is not that scary and I may be forced to wait for turn 2 to engage.

 

So, how does it look? And btw, is it even realistically possible to kill Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix with Jade Diadem on the first turn?