AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[CmdrStryker]

Thanks for the input guys!

On 6/24/2020 at 6:11 PM, Popisdead said:

The Arch-Rev can only buff one unit if you take them in two as far as i know (no book on hand).  If you were taking two units of 3 take them as Swords and don't take the Arch Rev..  If you were looking for a hammer unit take them as Scythes.  Also keep in mind they are always within range of a Sylvaneth hero so the Arch Rev can hide while they get the +1A command ability buff. 

Yes, I know that the Arch-Rev can only buff one unit. Maybe I was not clear I meant if it would make sense to have 2x3 Kurnoth Hunters or if 1x6 is ok. If I would take the Arch-Rev I would keep them as one unit of course. Thanks for the tip with the range!!!

 

On 6/26/2020 at 6:40 PM, Landohammer said:

@CmdrStryker

I think that is a solid list, though I have never heard of a 1750pt event before lol. The only obvious improvement I would suggest would be to drop the Freeguild General and take your leftoever points to take a Hurricanum.

Note that a Hurricanum can buff all three shooty units without having to burn a CP while also contributing its own (excellent) shooting attack as well.

Haha, yes, it is more of an "event" between friends. We agreed on playing 1750, I can't exactly remember why, but it had something to do with 2000 points being to big, and 1500 feeling to restricted to some. So we went in between

Thanks for your tip also! Does it make sense to drop the general and not have another hero for the deep-striking units? I agree the Hurricanum seems nice, it went totally under my radar to be honest... But I am not totally sure about it. Maybe you can convince me?

In the meantime I have thought about the list and came to the following idea:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- Stronghold: Living City
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Freeguild General (100)
- General
Arch-Revenant (100)
- Adjutant

Battlemage (90)

10 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (100)
- Retinue
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)

3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
4 x Fulminators (480)
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (400)

Total: 1730 / 1750

Still generally the same idea, but the Arch-Rev would stay behind (as an Adjutant) with the Hunters to protect the "advancing shooting line" + General, while the Battlemage should join the deep-striking Fulminators and Evocators to support the Fulminators by using "Strike and melt away" while generally supporting the Evocators by casting whatever he can cast.

Does this make any sense at all?

[CmdrStryker]

Double post, sorry 😑

Edited June 29, 2020 by CmdrStryker

[Landohammer]

19 hours ago, CmdrStryker said:

Thanks for the input guys!

Yes, I know that the Arch-Rev can only buff one unit. Maybe I was not clear I meant if it would make sense to have 2x3 Kurnoth Hunters or if 1x6 is ok. If I would take the Arch-Rev I would keep them as one unit of course. Thanks for the tip with the range!!!

 

Haha, yes, it is more of an "event" between friends. We agreed on playing 1750, I can't exactly remember why, but it had something to do with 2000 points being to big, and 1500 feeling to restricted to some. So we went in between

Thanks for your tip also! Does it make sense to drop the general and not have another hero for the deep-striking units? I agree the Hurricanum seems nice, it went totally under my radar to be honest... But I am not totally sure about it. Maybe you can convince me?

In the meantime I have thought about the list and came to the following idea:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- Stronghold: Living City
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Freeguild General (100)
- General
Arch-Revenant (100)
- Adjutant

Battlemage (90)

10 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (100)
- Retinue
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)

3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
4 x Fulminators (480)
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (400)

Total: 1730 / 1750

Still generally the same idea, but the Arch-Rev would stay behind (as an Adjutant) with the Hunters to protect the "advancing shooting line" + General, while the Battlemage should join the deep-striking Fulminators and Evocators to support the Fulminators by using "Strike and melt away" while generally supporting the Evocators by casting whatever he can cast.

Does this make any sense at all?

Thats a solid list. To answer your question I think at least  two characters are mandatory in LC to make sure all deepstrikers have access to command abilities.

So point for point, the Hurricanum is hands down the most powerful unit in the book. And it can be taken as a character. Its particularly useful in LC since it has a shooting attack and its buff reaches far enough to affect units that have deepstriked and completed their charge.

The main benefit of the Hurricanum is the +1 to hit. Having it near Kurnoth Hunters or Fulminators just make them even better. (note it buffs shooting and melee attacks for the Fulminators)

However what makes the Hurricanum so insane its its Storm shooting attack, which is a super reliable way to just dump around 6 mortal wounds on any unit within 18". 

 

[Landohammer]

Had a club day to blow off the dust and played two games vs two super hard lists. My list was a Dwarf themed LC army with 30 hammerers, 20 irondrakes, hurricanum, gyrocopter, runelord, 10 Evocators  and 20 Hearthguard berzerkers as allies. 

Game 1 vs Hallowheart. Failed both my charges after deepstrike. Hammerers got obliterated by their horde eating spell (ouch) and Berzerkers took heavy casualties from 30 Crossbowmen that were Bridged. On turn two the Evocators finally made their charge and wiped out 30 handgunners in a single round and started killing their way across the board. 7 surviving Berzerkers eventually made it into the crossbowmen and grinded them down.

I was down on objectives all game but his army was overly dedicated to shooting and casting and so he fell apart rapidly once I reached his lines. I scored a critical objective on turn 5 to eek out a win 13-11. 

Game 2 vs Skaven (Skyre?)- Evocators failed their charge after deepstrike but Hammerers made theirs and murdered about 30 rats. However I wasn't prepared for the insanity that is ratling guns. He had 3 with character buffs and they wiped out hammerers in a single round. 6 Evocators got zapped by Warp cannons and the rest ran away (ouch). Bezerkers did some work vs the Stormfiends but ultimately got shot up by the buffed ratling guns due to their slow movement.

I made a desperate last stand with Irondrakes shooting off many clan rats but just couldn't get him off objectives for a stunning 7-28 defeat. 

 

I had fun but it was a painful lesson in the reliance on 9" charges. Even with rerolls its still pretty risky, and unforuntely both my opponents had shooting to capitalize. The berzerkers were awesome but their low movement really held them back. I think I am going to take some Concussors to try and capitalize on the LC command ability and make my charges more reliable. 

 

[CmdrStryker]

7 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Thats a solid list. To answer your question I think at least  two characters are mandatory in LC to make sure all deepstrikers have access to command abilities.

So point for point, the Hurricanum is hands down the most powerful unit in the book. And it can be taken as a character. Its particularly useful in LC since it has a shooting attack and its buff reaches far enough to affect units that have deepstriked and completed their charge.

The main benefit of the Hurricanum is the +1 to hit. Having it near Kurnoth Hunters or Fulminators just make them even better. (note it buffs shooting and melee attacks for the Fulminators)

However what makes the Hurricanum so insane its its Storm shooting attack, which is a super reliable way to just dump around 6 mortal wounds on any unit within 18". 

 

Thank you for your input!

Yes, after reading the warscroll of the Hurricanum I kinda agree... seems very powerful. Yet I am really not sure how to change my list to accomodate the 280 points for the Hurricanum + Battlemage as general, while keeping about the same general structure.

I always come short of the support hero for the deep-strikers. So at the moment the list would just exchange the Freeguild General, Battlemage and the Arch-Rev with the Battlemage on Hurricanum. You said the Hurricanum normally has enough range to support the deep-strikers, but this also costs me the Adjutant for some possible CP. I don't know

The Hurricanum list would leave me with 30 Points open for... I don't know, a Burning Head?

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by CmdrStryker

[Landohammer]

15 hours ago, CmdrStryker said:

Thank you for your input!

Yes, after reading the warscroll of the Hurricanum I kinda agree... seems very powerful. Yet I am really not sure how to change my list to accomodate the 280 points for the Hurricanum + Battlemage as general, while keeping about the same general structure.

I always come short of the support hero for the deep-strikers. So at the moment the list would just exchange the Freeguild General, Battlemage and the Arch-Rev with the Battlemage on Hurricanum. You said the Hurricanum normally has enough range to support the deep-strikers, but this also costs me the Adjutant for some possible CP. I don't know

The Hurricanum list would leave me with 30 Points open for... I don't know, a Burning Head?

 

 

More evidence of the Hurricanum's overpoweredness is the fact that it can basically cover the same jobs as the Freeguild General, Battlemage, and Arch Rev but 10pts cheaper and providing the mortal wound output. Though you would be down to 1 character which could hurt you in some of the scenarios.

The best 30pt spell is Quicksilver Swords. Its damage potential vs Chaos is insane. 

Again though, 1750 is a really strange point level so you are going to have to compromise somewhere.  May just have to leave your list like it is and only put in the Hurricanum when you play 2K. 

[Kramer]

23 hours ago, Landohammer said:

had fun but it was a painful lesson in the reliance on 9" charges. Even with rerolls its still pretty risky, and unforuntely both my opponents had shooting to capitalize. The berzerkers were awesome but their low movement really held them back. I think I am going to take some Concussors to try and capitalize on the LC command ability and make my charges more reliable

Solid conclusions I feel. 
but why would you take the bezerkers without a hero for the +2 on their ward save? 

[Landohammer]

3 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Solid conclusions I feel. 
but why would you take the bezerkers without a hero for the +2 on their ward save? 

That is an excellent question with a painful answer lol.

Berzerkers are 400pts for 20, so they max out my allies allotment. Also note that 15 are 360pts, so you are getting a huge discount on the last 5 guys, and so would need to drop to 10 guys to have enough room for a character.

So the only way to take a character would be to drop the unit down to 10 guys. But at that point you have cut your wounds (and attacks!) in half just to get a defensive bonus which is self defeating.

On a side note, I was actually using them as "Greyfyrd" mercenaries rather than just normal allies so they cost me -1 CP but got a +1 to hit when charged. So they were insanely killy. But they just couldn't get anywhere

[Kramer]

9 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

That is an excellent question with a painful answer lol.

Berzerkers are 400pts for 20, so they max out my allies allotment. Also note that 15 are 360pts, so you are getting a huge discount on the last 5 guys, and so would need to drop to 10 guys to have enough room for a character.

So the only way to take a character would be to drop the unit down to 10 guys. But at that point you have cut your wounds (and attacks!) in half just to get a defensive bonus which is self defeating.

On a side note, I was actually using them as "Greyfyrd" mercenaries rather than just normal allies so they cost me -1 CP but got a +1 to hit when charged. So they were insanely killy. But they just couldn't get anywhere

Oh that’s a very good call. 
I often take 10 + runesmiter in KO or Duardin cities. Just so I can set up something sturdy on an objective, to block a lane or just threaten his backfield. 
 

thanks, you’ve given me something to think about. 
Aka a reason to eBay 10 more metal daemon slayer models who I use as bezerkers. And who were the most fun to paint since I started warhammer again. 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Kramer

[Landohammer]

42 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Oh that’s a very good call. 
I often take 10 + runesmiter in KO or Duardin cities. Just so I can set up something sturdy on an objective, to block a lane or just threaten his backfield. 
 

thanks, you’ve given me something to think about. 
Aka a reason to eBay 10 more metal daemon slayer models who I use as bezerkers. And who were the most fun to paint since I started warhammer again. 

I can't remember if it was you I told this to, but I am also using 20 old metal dwarf slayers for exactly this purpose lol. They were cheaper and they look great on 32mm bases. They also make reasonable proxies for Vulkite Berzerkers which may be better suited for your purposes. They aren't as killy as Hearthguard but you can get 40 wounds with a 5+ (sometimes 4+) save for like 280pts. 

Its unfortunate that mercenaries appears to be gone in GHB20 since the option for mercenaries in ANY army gave the slayers a lot of versatility. I could use those same 20 guys in any of my armies. And my Sylvaneth and Tzeentch armies lack a lot of options for killy infantry. 

 

[Kramer]

5 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I can't remember if it was you I told this to, but I am also using 20 old metal dwarf slayers for exactly this purpose lol. They were cheaper and they look great on 32mm bases. They also make reasonable proxies for Vulkite Berzerkers which may be better suited for your purposes. They aren't as killy as Hearthguard but you can get 40 wounds with a 5+ (sometimes 4+) save for like 280pts. 

Its unfortunate that mercenaries appears to be gone in GHB20 since the option for mercenaries in ANY army gave the slayers a lot of versatility. I could use those same 20 guys in any of my armies. And my Sylvaneth and Tzeentch armies lack a lot of options for killy infantry. 

 

Haha probably. 
It’s now definitely something to consider. Especially if they go down that little bit to fit 30 in 400 pts. 
but for now I’m just waiting for ghb 2020 before committing to either plan. 
for me the true value was placing them anywhere so I ‘need’ to combine it with runesmiter. With the new book that is less true for KO but still for my duardin city alliance. 
And even in KO it’s hard to get bodies on objectives fast. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I have tried my mass of Magma Cannons from Legion of Azgorh as Steam Tanks in various ways, and decided they just stink.   Going with my variety pack of random Order models instead.  Probably not super great but I think this has some teeth in some matchups...we'll find out soon.

Runelord (general, Forest Strider)

Runelord (general's adjutant)

Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (Spear of the Hunt)

Drycha Hamadreth

Spirit of Durthu

Knight-Heraldor

3x10 Irondrakes

1x2 Concussors

Prismatic Palisade

Figure I'd be going second most of the time, but thinking that Outflanking Irondrakes and Durthu and/or Drycha would be a good enemy zone harassment force, possibly alpha striking vulnerable heroes or units. 

Strike then Melt Away....can that be used after Outflanking?  Then Durthu and Drycha could get into combat and tear things up after shooting.  Or if they just start on the table they could maybe get to combat normally across the table.  Phoenix being so fast and durable can get where needed and strike first.  Heraldor is there to get the Concussors up to speed.   

My other option would be to use a Lord-Arcanum with Evos on Dracos instead of my Heraldor and Concussors (after moving/dumping things around for points).

[Kramer]

59 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Strike then Melt Away....can that be used after Outflanking?  Then Durthu and Drycha could get into combat and tear things up after shooting.  Or if they just start on the table they could maybe get to combat normally across the table.  Phoenix being so fast and durable can get where needed and strike first.  Heraldor is there to get the Concussors up to speed.   

 

yes, it's the main reason you see many combat units with 'weak' shooting attack in the lists. 

[swarmofseals]

If the posts on Chumphammer's Twitter feed are to be believed they will likely have some implications for us. Point reductions to Dracothian Guard are quite nice. Not sure what we will see for Sylvaneth.

+20 to Scourgerunner Chariots hurts a lot though, so I suspect to see some movement toward Gyrocopters or Gyrobombers instead.

[Aezeal]

So since GG are not in the CoS book.. is using GG as SoW without further conversion generally accepted? Since there is only 1 wanderer archer left (in this book, officially the GG are still a thing I guess (till next GHB?)  but noone is gonna play any old army that is in this book outside of CoS right?) I used to take my old waywatchers as SoW but with points reductions you only play them instead of GG so you need about... 30 + of them and I don't have that many WW (and I've got plenty GG).

On 7/2/2020 at 9:47 PM, Kramer said:

yes, it's the main reason you see many combat units with 'weak' shooting attack in the lists. 

So T1 you move (into shooting range) then shoot, command ability on end shooting phase, move again for 1 CP and then charge? Allarielle gets a huge threat range then  (if you want her solo into combat that is).

Edited July 5, 2020 by Aezeal

[readercolin]

17 hours ago, Aezeal said:

So since GG are not in the CoS book.. is using GG as SoW without further conversion generally accepted? Since there is only 1 wanderer archer left (in this book, officially the GG are still a thing I guess (till next GHB?)  but noone is gonna play any old army that is in this book outside of CoS right?) I used to take my old waywatchers as SoW but with points reductions you only play them instead of GG so you need about... 30 + of them and I don't have that many WW (and I've got plenty GG).

So T1 you move (into shooting range) then shoot, command ability on end shooting phase, move again for 1 CP and then charge? Allarielle gets a huge threat range then  (if you want her solo into combat that is).

Actually, it is generally T1 you appear on the board edge (9" distance), then shoot, then command ability move up for a 3-5" charge (5" on a move 4 unit, 3" on a move 6+ unit).  Alternatively, turn 1 you appear on the board edge with a solid shooting unit that doesn't like moving (ex. sisters), shoot, and then command point move them into a more secure position.

[Popisdead]

20 hours ago, Aezeal said:

So since GG are not in the CoS book.. is using GG as SoW without further conversion generally accepted?

I found 10 SotW heads and bows I must have snagged off an old manager.  Generally I built my GG as female torsos and the local players think its working.  I'm also using WWs as Sisters of the Way Watch.  I think green stuffing flames on bows would go a long way.

I also think SotW are what GG should have been and meant to be as the aelf archer unit of 10 that is super deadly.

[Popisdead]

On 6/29/2020 at 11:27 AM, CmdrStryker said:

Yes, I know that the Arch-Rev can only buff one unit. Maybe I was not clear I meant if it would make sense to have 2x3 Kurnoth Hunters or if 1x6 is ok. If I would take the Arch-Rev I would keep them as one unit of course. Thanks for the tip with the range!!!

Oh sorry.  1x3 is decent.  if you wanted 1 x 6 that would really clear out any chaff no matter the size haha.  Sword hunters are really good chaff clearers.  Scythes are really good hammers.

[Popisdead]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:50 AM, schwabbele said:

Hmm I am undecided, I have already 10 Sisters and 10 Shadow Warriors built and still have 2 boxes left.

Should I go for 20 each or 30 Sisters 10 Shadow Warriors or vice versa

Both of those are bad choices for a retinue.  Pick up something ~100 points to stab.

I'm running my SotW in blocks of 20.  I could go MSU but I like the idea of 20 to maximize shots even when charged and objective control.

 

Another good use for old Glade Guard models @Aezeal  is cut off the bows and put on swords and shields.  10 Darkshards ready to to be tossed on the corpse heap.

 

Sorry guys for the triple post, I was on a meeting that was super boring and didn't involve me.  

Edited July 6, 2020 by Popisdead

[Grimmlock619]

Finally found my list. 

Had 2 great games against Stormcast with 10 Evocators and 9 Vanguard Longstrikes and Nighthaunt this weekend. The Stormcast fight was a bit tough though. This list covers all my bases: Hammer, Scalpel, and Anvil. 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Living City
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Command Trait: Druid of the Everspring - Ironoak Skin
- Artefact: Wardroth Horn
Sorceress (90)
- Lore of Leaves: Lifesurge
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Leaves: Lifesurge
Drycha Hamadreth (320)
- Lore of Leaves: Lifesurge

Battleline
20 x Eternal Guard (260)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
30 x Freeguild Handgunners (300)
10 x Dreadspears (90)

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (400)
- Scythes

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121
 

The Hurrcanium on the side of the board with Drycha made the first shooting and melee pretty strong, even without the emotion buff. 

[Zeblasky]

6 hours ago, readercolin said:

Actually, it is generally T1 you appear on the board edge (9" distance), then shoot, then command ability move up for a 3-5" charge (5" on a move 4 unit, 3" on a move 6+ unit).  Alternatively, turn 1 you appear on the board edge with a solid shooting unit that doesn't like moving (ex. sisters), shoot, and then command point move them into a more secure position.

You actually got me thinking about the fact that if Dreadlord had a move of 16, he could have flown over the single line screens and straight into the backline in certain situations. And with move of 14 this is literally impossible. High movement is still quite useful for positioning anyway, and if you get a good charge roll, you can fly over and threaten backline anyway.

[readercolin]

4 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

You actually got me thinking about the fact that if Dreadlord had a move of 16, he could have flown over the single line screens and straight into the backline in certain situations. And with move of 14 this is literally impossible. High movement is still quite useful for positioning anyway, and if you get a good charge roll, you can fly over and threaten backline anyway.

Well, if you are looking at that, can I interest you in a casting of Chronomatic Cogs?  In addition to the +2 to charge rolls that everyone knows them for, they also provide a +2 to movement, which can get that dreadlord its 16" move.  Also, +2 to charge means that even if you don't command point move guys, they can get a 7" charge from the board edge (if they are a usual cities unit with a musician, they need a 6" charge).

[Popisdead]

23 hours ago, Grimmlock619 said:

Drycha Hamadreth (320)
- Lore of Leaves: Lifesurge

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (400)
- Scythes
 

I think i saw Drycha is down to 300 and Hunters are -10 points.  Frees up 40 points in your list.  Maybe could net you a Triumph most games.

[Grimmlock619]

3 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

I think i saw Drycha is down to 300 and Hunters are -10 points.  Frees up 40 points in your list.  Maybe could net you a Triumph most games.

I was thinking about changing the Dreadspears to Darkshards now so they can actually contribute instead of just being a casting buff. And then a Burning Head added but I actually quiet like the idea of a triumph.

[Popisdead]

5 minutes ago, Grimmlock619 said:

I was thinking about changing the Dreadspears to Darkshards now so they can actually contribute instead of just being a casting buff. And then a Burning Head added but I actually quiet like the idea of a triumph.

Oh I didn't see those.  Is burning head good?  I saw it on the side of the box and was tempted to paint it up.