AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Scurvydog]

5 minutes ago, El Syf said:

Erm, I prefer the look of Morghasts does that count?

I really like them too, but yea without buffs Immortis guard and Morghasts are about equal in output ~6.5-6.7 damage against 4+ save models, while stalkers using precision is 10.4 damage. The immortis guards scale quite well with additional attacks if they have a Liege nearby to give that though.

I am still not sure what to build immortis or stalkers, I already got myself 2 morghasts before the box was announced so I will get 2 more I guess... yay... 

For pure damage dealing I think the choice is stalkers all the way only due to precision stance, all the others will give them less damage than morghasts and immortis guards. 

I would ideally have 1 of each, but the battalions are messing with me here, making it attractive to stack up on at least 2 similar units, so have access to an 80 pts battalion. Choices choices...

[choocheelo]

2 minutes ago, relic456 said:

Morghast Harbingers and Morghast Archai have the same offensive stats now, so you'd just be comparing Stalkers vs Immortis Guard and Stalkers definitely do more damage.

Wipe out unit has no damage:)

Those 2 battalions vs 10 evocators math maybe?

[christophe]

To Those who bought it : are you happy with your OBR dices ?

[XReN]

14 minutes ago, choocheelo said:

The problem is that Stalkers have 1 battalion with morghast without 5++, morghast  archai with immotris. And u need one to take +1 to hit bubble from helm in any sub-faction.

Anyone can do math harbringers+stalkers vs. archai + immortis guard?

As mentioned - all morghasts come with halberd flavor, Immortis Guard are about 25% less killy when you don't swing with shields again (which is very costly when you run 2 small units of them) and almost equal when you do attack a 2nd time with shields

EDIT: I made calculations with +1 to hit and +1 attack from Kavalos with artefact and Stalkers in precision mode. Than I added improved rend from Petrifex Elite, top damage from 3 Stalkers against 4+ save is 20, from Immortis 15,33 / 18,33 (no 2nd shield attack / with 2nd shield attack)

Edited October 30, 2019 by XReN

[GeneralZero]

The look of immortis is great but I think that the main plus of the immortis is their bodyguard skill.Morghast are more an offensive free electron. Immortis are more an accompagnator of hero.

Edited October 30, 2019 by GeneralZero

[Souleater]

I note that Stalkers don't have the full Fly rule. Their WS says they "...can pass across terrain features in the same manner as a model that can fly."  (My emphasis. )

That coupled with their slightly higher native Move stat does make give them a little more leeway to get to enemy support heroes.

The Stalkers are going to punch stuff harder, of course.

[Dolomyte]

The issue I have with immortis is they really shine with the Battalion, your spending a third of your army on that, then the characters you would want them to guard are either faster then they are or are super expensive themselves. So you are gonna have a hell of a time holding objectives 

[Scurvydog]

6 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

The look of immortis is great but I think that the main plus of the immortis is their bodyguard skill.Morghast are more an offensive free electron. Immortis are more an accompagnator of hero.

They only have 5" move, but their 3+ base save should not be ignored. In Petrifex they have a 2+ making them a great all around unit, although in the anvil role they overlap with mortek guard. 12 wound with a 2+ save for 200 pts is quite good, mortek can get 20 wounds for 260 pts with 3+ rerollable save and possibly more damage, but that really depends on how many can get into combat, which is easier for 3 immortis than 20 models. 

Obviously the Immortis will have the most value also protecting something precious. Your army will really hurt if you lose your Liege, but if petrifex he will have a 2+ save, his 6++ and probably 9 wounds from the trait, so not particularly squishy at all... Guarding a wizard might be prudent, which allows you to more safely parade a boneshaper up table next to these guys, safely supporting your army.

[XReN]

4 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

The issue I have with immortis is they really shine with the Battalion, your spending a third of your army on that, then the characters you would want them to guard are either faster then they are or are super expensive themselves. So you are gonna have a hell of a time holding objectives 

Characters being faster is actually not a problem - Archai get the ability to intercept wounds from characters the same way Immortis do, the real problem is that 6 Immortis are way more resource-efficient than 3x2 Immortis

Edited October 30, 2019 by XReN

[Scurvydog]

Regarding stalkers, without any buffs the falchions seem pointless, only 0.2 damage better when using reroll to hit (but why) and a loss when using precision as all sane people will, besides the occasional reroll saves in a pinch I guess. 10.4 with falchions vs 4+ saves and 11.1 with all 3 using the blades. 

I think they look kind of badass, but they are plain worse, if at least they had 2" reach to do some more clever positioning, but nope.

[Sception]

Yeah, immortis are bodyguard primary, but still have respectable offensive output on top of that so you aren't essentially sacrificing an entire element of your army to add a few wounds to a hero.  Which is important because the army really doesn't have the sort of slack that would allow that sort of expenditure.  They're still not as fighty as a dedicated offensive unit, of course, so if you don't need the hero protection you're better off taking something else.

They are a fantastic example of how even relatively similar units within the OBR have distinct enough roles to all be worth considering.  About the only units that fall short in this regard are Vokmortian and the soureaper, both wizards who want to be in close with the enemy despite not really being fast enough to make that happen, or tough enough to make that advisable, or even having good & unique enough abilities to make the hassle & risk interesting.  And IMO that last bit is the real problem.  I mean, after all, you could use an immortis bodyguard to offset the safety issue, that's practically what they're there for, and if you were to field either of these heroes anyway (they are among the coolest models in the range, imo) then I'd consider a unit of Immortis to go with them absolutely obligatory... but even if you do, what do you get for the effort?  A wizard who still isn't doing anything more interesting than your dedicated support casters can manage from the safety of the back ranks, combined with a fighty hero who isn't really all that fighty either?

Maybe if Vokmortian's abilities were more reliable & debuff aura more debilitating, or if the soul reaper could convert nearby casualties into improved spellcasting power to actually reward you for committing a wizard to melee...  But as it is meh.  The best I can say for them is that they aren't too pricey for their 1/2 casts compared to alternative wizards in faction, but even then they aren't really cheap enough to just casually field, not with how expensive all the important components of your army will be already.

 

Still, though, that's only two units out of the pile.  Everything else seems to fill a unique and well defined niche that they're at least competent enough at to be worth considering fielding.  Which, after playing Legions of Nagash since release, and considering some other recent releases (Cities of Sigmar, I'm looking at you) is really a breath of fresh air.  Some combinations of things might work better than others, but in general no matter what your favorite unit in the army is, so long as that unit isn't Vokmortian or the Soulreaper, you should be able to put together a viable & effective list where that unit is a lynch pin of your army, and that's just cool.

 

Such a shame the subfaction balance wasn't on the same level.

[XReN]

4 minutes ago, Sception said:

Such a shame the subfaction balance wasn't on the same level.

GWs still haven't learned Staunch Defender lesson, which is very unfortunate

[NkfPanda]

Does anyone else think the OBR look like Lord Garmadon from Ninjago LOL!

[Heijoshin]

Regarding the Morghast Archai unit in the Aegis Batallion: Do they still get to do their own 5+ shrug against mortal wounds and the 6+ general shrug? Or is it because a wound was "dealt" to the hero, then they can't do their own saves against it? So would it go down like this:

• Lets say Liege Kavalos takes a wound after his own saves etc
• Morghast roll for the bodyguard ability: 
  • 2+ they take it instead
    • 5+ it's actually negated
  • If less than 5 they can use their own 5+ FNP (if its a mortal wound)
  • 6+ general FNP

If they can do either of their shrugs, this seems really powerful to have a unit of Archai from this Battalion with a Liege Kav, who could be giving them +1 attack, as well as having the Petrifex benefits, trait and artefact to himself and the command ability to the Archai (or whoever else). 

Just spitballing here but the Morghast, whilst perhaps not as blendy and killy as the stalkers, or as defensive are great hybrids that can really play however you need them to. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Heijoshin
Clarification

[Scurvydog]

Vokmortian would be more interesting if the immortis ability was to intercept rules, but having your high save guys just take wounds handed out by a 5+ save model will just crumble them right away. If you somehow were allowed to use their saves to intercept the hits, then Vokmortian and some bodyguards could parade up and try to bad touch some nasty beast, but that seems suicidal still.

Vokmortians -1 to be dispelled might just be worth his 180 pts if he was not locked to a legion, but alas he is locked to the worst one, if not I might have considered him instead of a Soulmason to get of crucial endless spells, but the soulmason is 40 pts less and can 5/6 times cast 3 spells or even more if rolling a 6. 

[Sception]

Eh, he's not locked to the *worst* one.  Imo stalliarch & esp. ivory host are worse.  Though you really ought to be running katakros if you're playing his legion, and that doesn't leave a lot of character points for vokmortian after the big guy, more critical support hero options, and some actual units.

 

Edit: moved to later reply

Edited October 30, 2019 by Sception

[Scurvydog]

Just now, Heijoshin said:

Regarding the Morghast Archai unit in the Aegis Batallion: Do they still get to do their own 5+ shrug against mortal wounds and the 6+ general shrug?

Wound allocation is a bit wonky at times, but I believe it will basically follow normal processes after the armor save step, so whatever the heroes armor save fails will then carry over on a 2+ to the morghast. Then this is treated as an unsaved wound or mortal wound with all the secondary saves and ignores after that. I might be wrong but this is how I see it.

[Scurvydog]

19 minutes ago, Sception said:

Eh, he's not locked to the *worst* one.  Imo stalliarch & esp. ivory host are worse.  Though you really ought to be running katakros if you're playing his legion, and that doesn't leave a lot of character points for vokmortian after the big guy, more critical support hero options, and some actual units.

Running and charging is better than -1 bravery, although if you do not use any cavalry the command ability is useless, so it is a bit niche, but far superior in that niche though (kavalos spam). 

Katakros in a praetorian army you get: +1 hit and save 18"/36" bubble costing 1 command point. you get the -1 bravery and reroll hit vs chargers. The trait is not used as Kat is the general. The artifact is useless.

Katakros in petrifex: The +1 save is gained by everyone, no range, making it no loss to miss out on from Kat. you then just get the +1 hit 18"/36". You get the +1 rend command ability which is far superior. You get no trait still. You get an artifact ignoring 1st wound in any phase, which is far better than the blade, as you should really not need a Liege combat hero anyway with Kat.

In petrifex you dont have to worry about a wounded katakros giving a smaller +1 save bubble, you just got it. I will easily trade -1 bravery aura and the reroll hit vs chargers command, in favor of constant +1 save no matter what and access to a +1 rend command and an actually useful artifact.

[Koujow]

I had an idea that was different from what everyone else has been tossing out. I just wanted to toss out my own idea for a potential army list. 

Blazing Saddles 2000 pts
Crematorian 

General 
- Liege Kavalos w/Crematorian artifact 200

Heroes 
- Bone Shaper w/Artisan's Key 130

Battle Line
-15x Kavalos Deathriders 480
-15x Kavalos Deathriders 480
-30x Mortek Guard 390

Other
- Gothizzar Harvester 200

Battalions 
- Kavalos Lance 120

The army has 142 wounds and generates 4 Ruthless Discipline per turn. I did a little mental game and 4 RD isn't actually that bad since one of the Deathriders wedge ability goes off for free. The Deathriders dash up the field, play some hit and run. Those that get caught can explode on enemies. The Mortek Guard + Bone Shaper + Harvester coming up in the rear to hold an objective or two seems like it would be very hard to get rid of. And I get to paint a cool, fiery paint scheme. 

Thoughts? 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Koujow

[Sception]

 

15 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Katakros in petrifex:  *snip*

Oh, Praetorians are definitely not the best legion, which is so obviously Petrifex that I'm honestly surprised that made it out of proof reading, let alone play testing.  Nor even are they one of the two good ones - the situational anti-magic-meta Null Myriad or the fun & gimmicky Crematorians.

But I'd still call them better than the Ivory Host - who just make your army worse - or the Stalliarchs, who are ok for kavalos spam, but their best ability is rendered redundant by the kavalos formation which any kavalos spam army will want to use, in possibly the most blatant example of Skornergy yet seen in AoS 2e.

...

If we want to talk about the 'best' legion in terms of the 'best designed', then imo the Crematorians are the best by almost as wide a margin as the Petrifex are the strongest.  They do exactly what you would want a subfaction ruleset to do - give a novel thematic spin to the army that recontextualizes its units and how they work together without being clearly overpowered compared to the core faction mechanics, with rules that nudge you towards narratively resonant  choices without hard gating whatever options you might want to take for personal or aesthetic reasons.  Mechanically they just might be my favorite subfaction in AoS yet.

They're making my own legion choice very difficult as, strictly from the lore, I'd be dead set on Null Myriad.  The Myriad's rules at least arne't terrible, I'd rate the above ivory host, stalliarchs, and praetorians, but they are extremely situational in a way I don't especially like.

Facing an opponent who relies heavily on offensive magic?  Null Myriad wins for free, why even bother playing the game.  Facing an opponent with no offensive magic - either because they have no wizards or their magic is purely buffing & support?  Then you might as well have not even chosen a subfaction.  There is an in between range where the opponent has some offensive magic but doesn't rely too heavily on it where the Myriad  can have fun games, but there's still too much potential for games to end in feel bads, imo.  Frankly, I wish their command ability had done something entirely unrelated to their anti-magic trait.  Maybe a healing ability to emphasize their inherent necromantic energy, or something to enhance your own spellcasting which would at least be consistent from game to game?  I don't know.  Something to make them worth running against non-magic opponents, leaving their unmodified magic trait to be effective but not game destroying against magically reliant opponents.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Sception

[Scurvydog]

Just now, Sception said:

 

Oh, Praetorians...

I completely agree with this, the balance is really off with the legions. I do not concern myself with choosing a legion model wise, I paint them as I want and just play the legion rules I want. I am not in the spot some space marines players are, being die hard about only playing their own chapter rules. But I can respect anyone who prefers to do it like that and completely dedicate to a theme.

I prefer the Praetorians style, just because they really have that military theme going. Orderly ranks of cold killers, a mix of death and horror with the style of the most feared ancient and historic armies from the real world.

Both the internal and external balance is rather terrible, yes playing Tzeentch VS Null Myriad is going to be all kinds of terrible, probably the worst matchup in the game now for Tzeentch by far.

I would also have preferred a bit more power put into the general allegiance rules, and a bit less into especially petrifex. The Crematorians are indeed in the spot I would consider interesting, as that brings more flavor than power. The idea behind Ivory host is also more interesting, but the execution ends up falling short, as the drawbacks are just too severe and the benefit not even 100% reliable when you need it. The crematorians have a horrible command ability and even worse traits and artefacts, yay my general just died a bit harder  

 

[Captain Badruk]

Has anyone considered that the extra plus one to hit on the death riders might be worth taking? the matter right weapons don't just give you double hits on an unmodified 6 so it might be worth taking a stacked hit roll for tons of exploding attacks?

[Heijoshin]

1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

Wound allocation is a bit wonky at times, but I believe it will basically follow normal processes after the armor save step, so whatever the heroes armor save fails will then carry over on a 2+ to the morghast. Then this is treated as an unsaved wound or mortal wound with all the secondary saves and ignores after that. I might be wrong but this is how I see it.

So basically the Morghasts can shrug it off too? Is it just me or is that a lot of shrugs and potential to just nullify lots if damage? 

[choocheelo]

13 minutes ago, Heijoshin said:

So basically the Morghasts can shrug it off too? Is it just me or is that a lot of shrugs and potential to just nullify lots if damage? 

Yep. All abilities work after allocating wound.

[Sception]

Keep in mind that you don't get shrugs from the original target, just regular saves.  So attack targets the hero, rolls to hit and wound as normal, hero rolls to save, unsaved wounds result in damage.  Before that damage is allocated to the hero (so before they get any shrugs), roll to shift the damage to the bodyguard unit.  After allocating the damage (either to the guarding unit or the hero depending on die results), you then roll any appropriate shrugs, before finally applying wounds to the units in question.  In the end it's the same number of saves/shrugs as you'd get otherwise, with an extra transfer step inserted in the middle.