AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

I'm largely happy with what I'm seeing. My biggest complaint is very personal and kind of silly--I want to pivot to Immortis Guard over Morteks as the core of my battleline, and I have way more Morteks than Immortis, especially in the already built and/or painted category.

Other minor gripes include:

--Morteks seem a little overcosted, especially keeping them at a 4+ base save, but that's going to require some playtime to be sure.

--Morghasts still being 6 wounds feels wrong. They models are huge, the units are super elite. Give them 7-8 wounds please!

--Liege-Kavalos has a neat potential tank build with Mighty Archaeossian and Lode of Saturation, but doesn't do enough damage to be worth throwing at stuff, and with 7 wounds, will still go squish against a few bad rolls.

--The Ivory Host issues already discussed.

These are mostly very minor complaints though, and I'm excited to play OBR for the first time in over a year.

[Sception]

I'm mostly very happy.  I like how most things work.  slayer still sucks.  vokmortian still overshadowed by soulmason.  crawler still has terrible damage... but it has a side use.  Artefacts are mostly trash, but the command traits are fantastic.  Katakros and arkhan are both amazing (the real Nagash was the Mortarchs he made along the way).  Overall most of these units are really cool, even if a lot of them are over-priced. I like it a lot.  I want to play them.  I'm like a third of the way into painting my Nighthaunt PTG army, but I already want to switch.  This army just looks really fun.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Sception

[Flippy]

7 hours ago, Sception said:

Artefacts are mostly trash, but the command traits are fantastic.

You've seen these?

[Dracan]

https://imgur.com/a/MRQj0LV

51 minutes ago, Flippy said:

You've seen these?

 

[Flippy]

36 minutes ago, Dracan said:

https://imgur.com/a/MRQj0LV

Sweet Lord, some of these command traits are truly amazing.

The artefacts... the helm is ok, the cartouche is nice, but Ossifector only. Maybe you can build some form of castle around Katakros and Ossifector, but I'm not sure yet. For now, I will try with some 1000 and 1500 points lists.

[rattila]

Still have the artisan key for the boneshaper. Then one of two generic artfact are also not that bad. The gothizzar cartouche stays, but on the ossifector so… who will take this guy, except in a list focus on him with at least 3 haverster / crawler / morghast (hello 750 pts)…

 

agreed that the traits are mostly good. Non dispellable spell, protection bubble vs missile weapon, messing with ennemy CA and substract 3 from charge roll in a bubble are all string contender i think. Even if the anti missile bubble can do nothing vs some armies (Well. Most of them actually) and the anti CA thing is unreliable (on a 5+), they have their uses.

 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Flippy said:

Sweet Lord, some of these command traits are truly amazing.

The artefacts... the helm is ok, the cartouche is nice, but Ossifector only. Maybe you can build some form of castle around Katakros and Ossifector, but I'm not sure yet. For now, I will try with some 1000 and 1500 points lists.

I am looking into building a Katakros + two crawlers list in the new book. Definitely feeling the points squeeze again!

So far I am thinking Katakros, 2 Crawlers and 20 Mortek as a core.

The game plan should be to have hard to shift troops on objectives sit supported by artillery.

The list will need something fast in case the Crawlers get attacked, so Deathriders or Morghasts, probably. Due to high points Katakros will have to be in the fray and help hold a point. Maybe paired up with some Immortis?

Not sure if the Ossifector is worth it. Double taps on 6s for crawlers does not make that much of a difference, I think, but the cartouche is nice. I might have to have a Mortisan general to fill battleline depeding on the final build.

I like the new book a lot, but it is full of synergies and interactions that I can't claim to fully understand yet.

[anorek]

I'm afraid that we might get day 0 faq/nerf since a lot of our abilities are some pretty great debuffs: -WS, -charge, -deploy, stopping units from receiving commands

Potentially we can go with ease to -2 WS? Also, does -charge stacks too? That could be -6 on charge, no sweat

[Sception]

some high points costs that are worrying, like are 10 morteks really worth 150 points?  But it's hard to say they're definitely not worth that much, because a reinforced unit especially absorbs buffs like crazy.  If you factor in all the possible stacking buffs (50% instant heal, +1 attack, extra attacks on 5+ to hit, +1 to hit, +1 to wound, +1 armor, +1 rend, 3+ models back per each of your hero phases) and debuffs (-2 to hit, -1 to save, -1 ward, cannot rally or Insp Presence) then 300 points for 20 mortek guard or even 450 for 30 looks amazing.

But then you add up the cost of all the support units are generating those buffs, debuffs, and heals (440 katakros, 180 liege, 160 mason, 120+ other caster, 210 harvester, 50 shrieker,) you realize those 30 mortek guard are actually costing you 1600 points and, and that's actually somehow worse than paying 150 points for 10 of them with no buffs at all.

Finding the right balance of dudes and buffs in this army will be difficult, and I honestly can't say whether 15 points per mortek will turn out to be too many points or too few once the brute force optimization algorithm that is competitive play has converged on the optimum buff efficiency.

...

Then again, stalkers just look good, on their own, without having to turn your list into a rube goldberg machine and/or easily toppled house of cards, so it's possible people won't even bother trying to find the optimal buff concentration to maximize morteks.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Sception

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

45 minutes ago, Sception said:

some high points costs that are worrying, like are 10 morteks really worth 150 points?

Many good points in your post. I think one of the big things about Mortek is that they are the only high body count unit in OBR. If you want capture power, they are kind of the only game in town (Kainan's Reapers being the other one). It's an interesting dynamic. OBR seems like an army that wants to win by playing the objectives, but the only high capture power unit in the book is kind of hard to make work/arguably overcosted.

You mentioned Stalkers already, but Immortis are also really absurd anvils now. 15 wounds of a natural 3+ save that can easily be 2+ if you want. Quite capable in combat, as well. If you make the opponent strike last, you can potentially activate them twice before they go once. I can certainly see a the draw of using them as your main battleline now (also, super quick to paint).

Still, my list prospective list has 30 Mortek because otherwise the point squeeze would spread me too thin.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Katakros, Mortarch of the Necropolis (430)
Liege-Kavalos/Zandtos (160)
Mortisan Boneshaper/Soulmason/Ossifector (110)

Battleline
20 x Mortek Guard (280)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Mortek Guard (140)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield

Units
3 x Immortis Guard (150)

Artillery
Mortek Crawler (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)

Total: 1850 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113
Drops: 9
 

Old points, artefacts, trait and legion TBD. Fitting everything into the Ossiarch Cohort is super easy, barely an inconvenience. However, very hard difficult to take other troops if you want both 20 Mortek and the Immortis. Points very tight.

[Flippy]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

You mentioned Stalkers already, but Immortis are also really absurd anvils now. 15 wounds of a natural 3+ save that can easily be 2+ if you want. Quite capable in combat, as well. If you make the opponent strike last, you can potentially activate them twice before they go once. I can certainly see a the draw of using them as your main battleline now (also, super quick to paint).

Very good point. Immortis are relatively cheap, very durable, protect heroes and can be killy if needed. I think that you can base the whole list around them - and it can even include the Soulreaper.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Flippy said:

and it can even include the Soulreaper.

Woah, let's not go too crazy here!

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Immortis also capture as 2 now thanks to the increased wounds, so a baseline unit is 6 models for capture and a reinforced unit is 12. It's not Mortek bodies-per-point, let alone a real swarm, but it's still a buff.

 

I am really tempted to pivot to Petrifex Immortis blocks, although I'm also considering Mortis Praetorians even though I don't love Katakros. My paintjob is for a custom legion, and there's aspects of their lore that work for any of Mortis Praetorians, Petrifex, and Null Myriad, depending on what I lean into.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Immortis also capture as 2 now thanks to the increased wounds, so a baseline unit is 6 models for capture and a reinforced unit is 12. It's not Mortek bodies-per-point, let alone a real swarm, but it's still a buff.

 

I am really tempted to pivot to Petrifex Immortis blocks, although I'm also considering Mortis Praetorians even though I don't love Katakros. My paintjob is for a custom legion, and there's aspects of their lore that work for any of Mortis Praetorians, Petrifex, and Null Myriad, depending on what I lean into.

Petrifex big boi spam seems really good, actually. HEKATOS keyword is Stalkers, Immortis and Morghasts. That's a solid base for a really elite and fun army.

For genereral purpose, I think it's hard to pick. As far as I can tell, there is no need to be Praetorians anymore if you want to include Katakros, but the counter-charge is a good ability. Null Myriad is highly matchup dependent, but potentially quite good (as it always was). Stalliarch kind of force you into a certain list that I am not yet convinced is as good (or fun) as the Petrifex list. Crematorians are OK for goodstuff. Ivory host still bad.

[Emissary]

I've been comparing Vokmortian to a Soulmason and he compares well.  Vok is 20 points cheaper, has just about identical stats (he has a good shooting attack compared to the meh throne claws.  Both cast and dispel 2.  Vok lacks the mortisian keyword if you need it for some reason.  The soulmason only favorably compares if you need it's spell, but the spell is highly limited now.  If you aren't relying on the buff for morteks or deathriders, Vok is probably better.

Also, I'm really curious about Mir Kainan and his unit.  They look worrisome at 250 points, but you're actually getting quite a lot at that point.  The 5 models in the Reapers each have 2 wounds and he can bring back 3 of them at a time (hence 6 wounds).  Dire Ultimatum could be used really well against units as it can cause a lot of wasted opportunities for attack, but you have to start your turn in melee to use it.  Meanwhile the reapers can tank wounds for Kainan on the way yet.  I'm not saying they're autoinclude, but I think there is potential to explore.

40 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Woah, let's not go too crazy here!

I actually don't think he's bad at the moment.  Can get protection via the Immortis, him plus the immortis would do the sculptor's entourage easily and throws out a good number of attacks with a good weapon against mobs of troops.  I'm actually excited to try him out. 

 

[Sception]

mason has a great extra buff & essentially becomes a triple caster if you run little stuff.  he's a mortisan to make the big stuff battleline if uou run that.  and he's generic to carry items (meh) or co?and trait (yay).  imo wprth the extra 20 points regardless of what you run.

honestly i don't know why the mason is a loremaster.  would still be good without it, & would make vok more special in comparison.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

58 minutes ago, Sception said:

mason has a great extra buff & essentially becomes a triple caster if you run little stuff.  he's a mortisan to make the big stuff battleline if uou run that.  and he's generic to carry items (meh) or co?and trait (yay).  imo wprth the extra 20 points regardless of what you run.

honestly i don't know why the mason is a loremaster.  would still be good without it, & would make vok more special in comparison.

Yeah, I've been brainstorming a list running Kavalos as my forward element instead of Stalkers in order to save points for multiple reinforced Immortis blocks, and the Soulmason's spell + Mortisan keyword make him a great general there. (It also helps that I just don't like Vokmortian).

[Sception]

i love vokmortian and was hype when i saw he was loremaster.  140 for double cast loremaster is a steal.  but then i saw mason /also/ gained loremaster and the same comparison that killed vok in the last book remains sadly in place

[anorek]

On 4/8/2023 at 12:00 AM, Sception said:

honestly i don't know why the mason is a loremaster.  would still be good without it, & would make vok more special in comparison.

Apologies for silly question, what does that mean ? I recall him being able to take any spell from the allegiance lore

@typos...

edit2: checked leaked scrolls and saw that lore section doesnt have written about Nagash/Arkhan knowing all lore - now it is written on individual scrolls

Edited April 8, 2023 by anorek

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

On 4/7/2023 at 10:44 PM, Emissary said:

I actually don't think he's bad at the moment.  Can get protection via the Immortis, him plus the immortis would do the sculptor's entourage easily and throws out a good number of attacks with a good weapon against mobs of troops.  I'm actually excited to try him out. 

I definitely don't want to take away from your excitement, but I kind of feel sad that this guy needs to jump through a hoop to get the same attack profile as a Vampire Lord (with one more rend). I would try out the fully kitted out Soulreaper with Luminscythe, Crafted from Beast Bone and Immortis bodyguards for a game, though. Might be OK.

[Aeryenn]

On 4/7/2023 at 10:09 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

As far as I can tell, there is no need to be Praetorians anymore if you want to include Katakros, but the counter-charge is a good ability. Null Myriad is highly matchup dependent, but potentially quite good (as it always was). Stalliarch kind of force you into a certain list that I am not yet convinced is as good (or fun) as the Petrifex list. Crematorians are OK for goodstuff. Ivory host still bad.

I on the other hand think that Ivory Host might be the best legion actually. 3 hits on every 6? During a game it could mean 20 or 30 additional to wound rolls.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Aeryenn

[rattila]

Well you need to roll well, then wounding, then thé ennemy must miss his save and ward. I prefer abilities useful no matter what, like petrifex elite.

Maybe crematorian (its mortal wound and on 5+) and mortis praetorian.

[Flippy]

2 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

I on the other hand think that Ivory Host might be the best legion actually. 3 hits on every 6? During a game it could mean 20 or 30 additional to wound rolls.

It would be, if not for the condition to activate these triploding sixes. The effect itself is ridiculous.

[Flippy]

8 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I definitely don't want to take away from your excitement, but I kind of feel sad that this guy needs to jump through a hoop to get the same attack profile as a Vampire Lord (with one more rend). I would try out the fully kitted out Soulreaper with Luminscythe, Crafted from Beast Bone and Immortis bodyguards for a game, though. Might be OK.

But the context is different in OBR, as you have very strong named characters to use. If you play smaller games (1000, 1500) and start with Arkhan, you need a cheap heroes to carry trait and artefact - and if the Liege-Kavalos is too expensive, the Soulreaper for 120 may be just what you need.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, Flippy said:

But the context is different in OBR, as you have very strong named characters to use. If you play smaller games (1000, 1500) and start with Arkhan, you need a cheap heroes to carry trait and artefact - and if the Liege-Kavalos is too expensive, the Soulreaper for 120 may be just what you need.

Good point. I think I'd still rather bring a Boneshaper, though. But then again, I have pathological support hero brain.