The Tithe II: what is going on with Deathrattle?

[Cargo Cult]

I’ve read a few things over the past year about what we can expect for death rattle.  I’ve read that there might be a new handbook. I’ve read that tomb kings might return. I’ve read about Spanish skeletons, pirate skeletons, Spanish pirate skeletons. 

Can anyone actually shed any light on this, based on actual evidence, including the latest Tithe video? 

Thanks!!!

[lare2]

Probably not what you're after but I think the answer can be summed up with... time will tell. 

I've heard/read a lot of rumours and wishlisting but it could be anything. Including a completely new faction that doesn't focus on Deathrattle at all. 

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

You've got as many answers as the rest of us. I know that's not what you want to hear but that's how it is.

[Sception]

Lots of people are speculating about the return of Tomb Kings, or entirely new factions, or massive expansions to the deathrattle range.  I recommend not getting your hopes up.  Sure, we might see tons of new kits like nighthaunt got...

But probably more likely is the ghoul treatment where the only new kits are a terrain piece digitally cobbled together from miscellaneous bits of existing kits, a couple endless spells, and a new hero that's dramatically better than ecisting alternatives but only available in a limited release box set packaged with a bunch of existing models you already have and don't need more of.

 

[michu]

@Sception They wouldn't do multiple video teaser if that would be a small release. It's bigger advertisement than Gloomspite got and they were a  big release.

[Sception]

I'm just saying to keep expectations in check.  If they're then exceeded, great.  But if not, saves you some grief.

[Fairbanks]

36 minutes ago, michu said:

@Sception They wouldn't do multiple video teaser if that would be a small release. It's bigger advertisement than Gloomspite got and they were a  big release.

To compare and contrast, Malign Portents had a number of 20 second teaser trailers before each of the new characters got a 2 minute video. Portents then got a load of story content and build up.

Meanwhile other factions have been sporadic with what they get. Idoneth and Daughters had a teaser trailer out a month before their launch (though, there were plenty of rumor pictures for Idoneth, like the ship). Gloomspite I think had a day before full spoilers. FEC and Skaven came close to out of nowhere (though, they aren't new per any stretch).

Trailer/Spoiler-wise, this is really close to what we got for Forbidden Power.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

I'm just saying to keep expectations in check.  If they're then exceeded, great.  But if not, saves you some grief.

I've always found that to be the best policy with releases. Often I hear people expecting new models for a range (with no evidence that any are coming) and then get frustrated when the don't get anything. If I don't see it I don't expect it.

[willange]

There is evidence for new models though (this time around anyway).  Several rumor engines match well with the trailer character, while others looks "deathy" without immediately matching up to the new character.  It still could just be hero/spells/terrain/book, but I would say that's the bare minimum of what it will be.

Edited August 23, 2019 by willange

[Cargo Cult]

I’m a massive fanboy for the Tombkings, but equally I’m a realist like Sception says.  I’m not expecting a glut of new releases, but it’s hard to suppress the hope that at least some new skeleton models might be coming.

I should declare an interest here. I’m on holiday in Spain and in hope I am busy building some skeletons for my second unit of forty. Now that is a labour of love. Incidentally the date on the sprue is 1998 (an eBay purchase), making these skeletons older than my four children!!!

 

 

[lare2]

New trailer. Looks immense. Gonna cost me a fortune. 

[Sception]

As of the Tithe 3, I do now believe it is fair to get excited.  Catapults at the very least, and what looks to maybe be a new skeletal monstrous cav, which could make a good counts as option for old necroknight models.

It looks like we may very well be getting that 'expansion to the deathrattle range that doubles as a partial tomb kings revival' that I and others have wanted but not dared to actually hope for.

[shinros]

35 minutes ago, Sception said:

As of the Tithe 3, I do now believe it is fair to get excited.  Catapults at the very least, and what looks to maybe be a new skeletal monstrous cav, which could make a good counts as option for old necroknight models.

It looks like we may very well be getting that 'expansion to the deathrattle range that doubles as a partial tomb kings revival' that I and others have wanted but not dared to actually hope for.

They look more Asian/mongol to me in my opinion. 

[Sception]

I don't mean 'tomb kings revival' in aesthetics, I mean 'tomb kungs revival' in that the deathrattle faction may be expanded in a way that a reasonable portion of the old tomb kings army might be fieldable with modern faction rules via counts as.  Right now, using the legions, that looks like:

skeleton warriors -> skeleton warriors
tomb guard -> grave guard
tomb king/prince/herald -> wight king
skeleton horsemen -> black knights
lich priests/necrotects -> necromancer
carrion -> fell bats
tomb swarms -> bat swarms

And that's a start, but there's an awful lot of the old tomb kings range with no reasonably appropriate modern equivalent:

chariots -> nothing
ushabti -> nothing
bone giants -> nothing
sphinxes -> nothing
catapults -> nothing
necroknights -> nothing
stalkers -> nothing
archers -> nothing
horse archers -> nothing
scorpions -> nothing
casket -> nothing

Just based on the trailer, we're at least getting new catapults.  If those come with new skeleton archers, mage, chariots, a bit of faction terrain that buffs casting in some way, and maybe a giant (we had all but confirmation that a new bone giant before end times killed off oldhammer & aos killed the tomb kings), then most of the non-construct elements if the old tomb kings would be fieldable as modern deathrattle.

Tack on a separate new undead construct faction, or maybe expand the deathlords into their own proper faction via new morghast variants (wingless infantry morghasts as ushabti stand in, same but mounted on undead dracoths as necroknight stand in, a couple of the same riding a bone monster as warsphinx stand in, unridden dread abyssal as necrosphynx stand in, plus a couple hero options), and make those allies to the expanded deathrattle and you've pretty much revived the tomb kings - at least in the sense if giving up to date rules that will reliably be maintained going forwards to old tomb kings armies, without actually having to revive the tomb kings.

 

Granted, I may be switching too readily from 'too pessimistic' to 'too optimistic' here.  We don't have strong evidence for anything more that catapults, but even that alone would be a big step in exactly the direction I was hoping against hope gw would take the deathrattle.

 

As for the visual style, the armor and weaponry of the drawings in tgese previews remind me most of the mortarchs & morghasts, what with the bone trim & all.  Imo that's a good look and a solid aesthetic direction.

[Death1942]

I might be in the minority but I don't want to see Tomb Kings come back.  They were my first fantasy army and I enjoyed my time with them in the past but I feel like a clean break would be much better for the designers and the game overall.  Happy to see things like constructs re imagined into the new army but I definitely don't think they should bring back any of the old models.

[Cargo Cult]

I’m certainly excited now!

To the points above, I’m neither expecting or demanding the return of Tomb Kings as was. The reason for this is that they have never gone away for me as my Deathrattle / Nighthaunt army has maintained the desert aesthetic from its Tomb King roots. I love my desert-based hexwraithes and spirit hosts for example. Also my Tomb Kings, Liche Priests, Skeleton Horsemen etc continue to hit the table in exactly the manner outlined by Sception above.

As to what we are getting next, I certainly find the aesthetic interesting. The Mortarch of Tithe (for want of a better title until later this week) looks badass. There are a number of interesting influences at play, from the accent in the vid to the Japanese kabuto-style helmets to the fact that his mount looks like a rhino. Go figure that out.

It certainly looks like a siege weapon is in the offing, which is outstanding. It would be good to dust off my screaming skull catapult, the infernal ****** construct that required three arms to put together and taught me to pin (as it only stayed together if every piece was pinned to every other piece). Beyond that I’m seeing some cavalry at least. Most of the other troops suggest some form of new elite heavily armoured skeletons, noting that they don’t look a million miles off existing Tomb Guard.

Other than that my wish list is relatively modest. I’d like some sort of bone giant (see my profile picture) and skeleton archers (I finished 30 of the buggers just as they dropped out of use).

Overall summary:

Some love for skeletons. Woo woo!!!!

Not Tomb Kings, but perhaps a nod to them by way of homage.

Hopefully some ranged capability.

Unclear after that, but definitely positive.

Bring it on! It’s about time a wall of bone with glowing eyes got some battlefield respect. 

[Verengard]

The only models (which were used before) that can return are:

- Tomb Guard kit

- Necrosphinx kit

- Necropolis Knights kit

Rest is very old so even if they make something simmilar it will get new model 100%

The aesthetic of the new army IMHO will be something like Morghasts, Arkhan, Nagash - the armor they have is very simmilar, also knight from the teaser has simmilar ornament on the shield as Arkhan on his dragon armor.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Verengard

[lare2]

Walking the dog this morning and was thinking... could this be the beginning of the end of LoN? 

With these new boys there'll be 3 distinct Death factions. Will there be any reason for a soup book? Then it got me thinking, perhaps they'll start retiring old models, e.g. skellies, zombies, etc. 

Started scaring myself... 

[Sception]

4 hours ago, Verengard said:

The only models (which were used before) that can return are:

- Tomb Guard kit

- Necrosphinx kit

- Necropolis Knights kit

Rest is very old so even if they make something simmilar it will get new model 100%

The aesthetic of the new army IMHO will be something like Morghasts, Arkhan, Nagash - the armor they have is very simmilar, also knight from the teaser has simmilar ornament on the shield as Arkhan on his dragon armor.

Unfortunately, not even the Tomb Guard, Necrosphinx, and Necroknights can really be integrated into the modern death line.  The size and proportions used for the skeletons match those of the old skeleton kit, and really do look inconsistent in a bad way next to the modern skeleton proportions seen in the skeleton warrior, grave guard, and black knight kits.

What I don't know is whether the latter day Tomb King plastics are recent enough to have been done digitally.  If so, then  the files for the non-skeleton things could conceivably be duplicated on new sprues with new skeletal riders & drivers redesigned to match the modern style & proportions.  I could maybe see this happening for the sphinxes.  That seems less likely for the necroknights.

Again, though, we did have strong rumors of a new plastic bone giant that had been fully designed, but that hadn't made it into production before end times & AoS killed off the tomb kings.  Not matching the proportions of modern skeletons wouldn't matter for a skeletal giant, so if that rumor was true I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a new bone giant as part of this new range.  Though I suppose that depends on just how Egyptian it's aesthetic was, and whether the studio felt it was worth doing whatever redesign work was necessary to bring it into line with the new aesthetic.

Which, looking at these previews, I really like btw.  It's distinctly AoS in a high fantasy-ish.  Implies a Shyishian/Nagashii undead culture all its own.

I'm really excited to see more on Wednesday.

[Cargo Cult]

I can respect your desire for perfection Sception but personally a bit a scale mismatch doesn’t bother me. All my skeletons are the old sculpt (weird big hands and all) either from Tomb Kings warriors, eBay buys and quite a few boxes of the (still available) packs of 5 skeletons. Despite the less than perfect sculpt I actually prefer these as:

1 The newer skeleton warriors are way too small, fiddley and fragile.

2 The old ones are easier to paint as they have less accessories (important for a time constrained player).

They match with my Black Knights as I use Tomb King skeleton horsemen. Yes the newer Grave Guard look a bit small by comparison but personally I can live with it.

Anyway thanks for the insights. Like you I’ll be tuning in Wednesday with considerable interest.

[Cargo Cult]

Ps holiday time has allowed me to build my second 40 skels. These lads are the last. Just got to paint them now.

40 shields. Sigh.

[Sception]

3 hours ago, Cargo Cult said:

I can respect your desire for perfection Sception but personally a bit a scale mismatch doesn’t bother me. All my skeletons are the old sculpt (weird big hands and all) either from Tomb Kings warriors, eBay buys and quite a few boxes of the (still available) packs of 5 skeletons. Despite the less than perfect sculpt I actually prefer these as:

1 The newer skeleton warriors are way too small, fiddley and fragile.

2 The old ones are easier to paint as they have less accessories (important for a time constrained player).

They match with my Black Knights as I use Tomb King skeleton horsemen. Yes the newer Grave Guard look a bit small by comparison but personally I can live with it.

Anyway thanks for the insights. Like you I’ll be tuning in Wednesday with considerable interest.

Scale & aesthetic mismatch doesn't bother me too much either, BUT it does seem to bother GW.  I was mostly saying I don't think those kits coming back *will* happen, not that I'd be at all unhappy if they did.  I have some of each of them (granted I built my knights as stalkers, but w/e), and do still sometimes field them, counts as or otherwise.

 

[Verengard]

The scale of tomb guard, necrosphinx and necropolis knights is the same as LoN skeletons, they are new digitaly created kits.

[libr4rian]

I know its a rumour but:

I heard once that reason why such great and quite modern army (compared to many models from other ranges) as Tomb Kings disappeared was very sad mistake. Rumour has it, that moulds for Tomb Kings range has been accidentally destroyed. If it is true, I don't think they will made new moulds for "old looking" range because it is more profitable make new moulds for new models. More people will buy it. And as all we already know high quality moulds for plastic ranges are very expensive.

I was going to start new TK army just when AoS came out and then TK's disappeared. I was very disappointed, so I'm looking forward to see new dethrattle army. I hope it will have nice and interesting look, and will combine somehow with NH and LoN.

(...but as an archaeologist I will always miss TK's. If I could afford old second-hand models I would buy them, but today's prices are out of my range)

[Sception]

12 hours ago, Verengard said:

The scale of tomb guard, necrosphinx and necropolis knights is the same as LoN skeletons, they are new digitaly created kits.

I have all these kits, and no, this isn't true.  They're all scaled to match the old skeletons.  But scale isn't that important - scale between mounted & foot models or common & elite units in AOS is often quite different anyway.  Try converting a spare mortarch into a standing pose for hilarious evidence, arkhan in particular is like twice the height of regular skeletons.

No, more importantly than the scale, the *proportions* of the latter day plastic tomb king kits are made to match with the old skeletons.  In particular look at the skulls & hand bones.  The current / VC style skittles have skulls and hand bones that look like they could actually fit not just inside the helms & gauntlets of similarly scaled humanoid models in the range, but within their actual heads and hands as well.  The TK style skeletons, including the plastic tomb guard, warsphinx riders, and necropolis knight riders, have big cartoony skulls and hand bones that are full of fun character, but look like they could almost be masks & gloves worn over the heads & hands of similarly scaled humanoid figures.

The latter day TK plastics aren't quite as bad on this as the older skeletons, but they're definitely made to fit in aesthetically with an army of those old skeletons, and they stand out noticeably in an army made up of the modern / vamp count skeleton look, even if you ignore the Egyptian style iconography.