The Rumour Thread

[Ejecutor]

32 minutes ago, Snarff said:

Kharadron and Fyreslayers have not been established for 40 years though, are entirely new , and their lore has always included female Duardin. It's the same level of silliness as getting angry over female Stormcast models, which I definitely saw quite a bit of too back in the day.

Yeah, but for those users, that normally come from WHFB, they are all dwarfs.

[RetconnedLegion]

1 hour ago, madmac said:

Possible, but still raises the question of why now? I don't think anything they are showing now is for the 4E launch box and Dawnbringers has already given SC Ionus and the Blacktalons, I don't see some random generic foot hero showing up for Book 4 or 5.

 

Some of the rumour pictures have taken a long time to materialise so it’s not outside the realms of possibility it’s from a new starter set.

[Twisted Firaun]

5 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

GW confirming the Bretonnian novel, Lords  of the Lance.

Sorry I’m late to the party, I’m hanging out with my mom  , step-dad, and half siblings in Disney….. Anyways BY LONG LOST NEHEKHARA!!! THE NEW BOOK FEATURING THE TOMB KINGS LOOKS AND SOUNDS AMAZING!!! I love the cover of both the regular and exclusive editions, and how the exclusive seems to have the entire map of TOW on the back. My one concern is that they’re gonna make the Bretonnians the default “good guys” of the story, when odds are that the kidnapped knight did something stupid to earn the enmity of the land of the dead. Otherwise, it looks like a fun return to the setting, and I can’t wait to see what comes next.

[MitGas]

54 minutes ago, Snarff said:

Highly agree, AoS also still has a few sticking around. I saw a surprising number of people being anti-female Duardin models as well.

I'll out myself, I think it doesn't work for all models/units. Bear with me, I'll try to explain my POV.

E.g. the current Chaos Warriors feel off to me as women, as the visual style is clearly male and then you stick a women's head on them. I would've liked female Chaos armor in the way that Stormcast armor for females is a bit different in their proportions so that it reads as a woman, doesn't need any sort of distinct breast armor or something though. Yes, I even know women that are just as muscular as men (one's in my gym, I wish I was as diligent as her xD) but I'm still old-fashioned there I guess. It's not about women being just as strong or stronger than men, especially not in fiction.

And even then I'd probably just like chaos dudes better tbh but yeah, that's preference likely down to knowing it that way and the visuals. It was certainly strange to see people argue that the recent Curseling e.g. "is" a woman now tho so I would've liked more visual diversity between the genders armor (I mean he could be if you want him to be but nothing about him suggests it outside of a slightly peaked chest armor that the old one (a dude in lore) had as well)....

I'm not sure female Bret knights won't look off to me either, I'll be honest, but I think it's less of a visual contradiction as Brets aren't as massive as CWs. Doesn't ruin anything for me but in a more historically-influenced game such as WHFB it might feel more off than in AoS. 

Some units I would've liked to include much more female sculpts, e.g. Kairic Acolytes for my army, where it just feels natural to have more gals in the club as in a high-fantasy setting, they'd join our nice cult hopefully too. Guess I'm a mixed bag but Im certainly one to argue that it sometimes feels off to me. No offense intended, it's certainly no dealbreaker for me but I count myself to "one of those" in a way. I know many here disagree with my stance there but I think it's fair to explain why I think like that.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Snarff said:

That's not going to go over well with a certain very vocal part of that fanbase, lmao

I love it! (That there‘ll be female knights)

Edited December 20, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Grungnisson]

1 hour ago, mojojojo101 said:

With respect, TOW is probably well rid of those people.

I thought TOW was supposed to suck them out from AoS...

[Ejecutor]

14 minutes ago, Twisted Firaun said:

Sorry I’m late to the party, I’m hanging out with my mom  , step-dad, and half siblings in Disney….. Anyways BY LONG LOST NEHEKHARA!!! THE NEW BOOK FEATURING THE TOMB KINGS LOOKS AND SOUNDS AMAZING!!! I love the cover of both the regular and exclusive editions, and how the exclusive seems to have the entire map of TOW on the back. My one concern is that they’re gonna make the Bretonnians the default “good guys” of the story, when odds are that the kidnapped knight did something stupid to earn the enmity of the land of the dead. Otherwise, it looks like a fun return to the setting, and I can’t wait to see what comes next.

I think the TOW blue looks better in that book pic than in the leaked boxes pics. Seems to be a bit brighter. And the illustration is ace!

[Gitzdee]

2 minutes ago, MitGas said:

I'll out myself, I think it doesn't work for all models/units. Bear with me, I'll try to explain my POV.

E.g. the current Chaos Warriors feel off to me as women, as the visual style is clearly male and then you stick a women's head on them. I would've liked female Chaos armor in the way that Stormcast armor for females is a bit different in their proportions so that it reads as a woman, doesn't need any sort of distinct breast armor or something though. Yes, I even know women that are just as muscular as men (one's in my gym, I wish I was as diligent as her xD) but I'm still old-fashioned there I guess. It's not about women being just as strong or stronger than men, especially not in fiction.

And even then I'd probably just like chaos dudes better tbh but yeah, that's preference likely down to knowing it that way and the visuals. It was certainly strange to see people argue that the recent Curseling e.g. "is" a woman now tho so I would've liked more visual diversity between the genders armor (I mean he could be if you want him to be but nothing about him suggests it outside of a slightly peaked chest armor that the old one (a dude in lore) had as well)....

I'm not sure female Bret knights won't look off to me either, I'll be honest, but I think it's less of a visual contradiction as Brets aren't as massive as CWs. Doesn't ruin anything for me but in a more historically-influenced game such as WHFB it might feel more off than in AoS. 

Some units I would've liked to include much more female sculpts, e.g. Kairic Acolytes for my army, where it just feels natural to have more gals in the club as in a high-fantasy setting, they'd join our nice cult hopefully too. Guess I'm a mixed bag but Im certainly one to argue that it sometimes feels off to me. No offense intended, it's certainly no dealbreaker for me but I count myself to "one of those" in a way. I know many here disagree with my stance there but I think it's fair to explain why I think like that.

I agree with the part that a headswap doesnt make something female. Fully commit to female designs or dont imho.

[Jagged Red Lines]

1 hour ago, Snarff said:

That's not going to go over well with a certain very vocal part of that fanbase, lmao

Good, now give us female bloodreavers, marauders, kairics and dwarves to mix in with existing units. All male units - all male armies - look weird af.

 

 

[Luperci]

35 minutes ago, MitGas said:

I'll out myself, I think it doesn't work for all models/units. Bear with me, I'll try to explain my POV.

E.g. the current Chaos Warriors feel off to me as women, as the visual style is clearly male and then you stick a women's head on them. I would've liked female Chaos armor in the way that Stormcast armor for females is a bit different in their proportions so that it reads as a woman, doesn't need any sort of distinct breast armor or something though. Yes, I even know women that are just as muscular as men (one's in my gym, I wish I was as diligent as her xD) but I'm still old-fashioned there I guess. It's not about women being just as strong or stronger than men, especially not in fiction.

And even then I'd probably just like chaos dudes better tbh but yeah, that's preference likely down to knowing it that way and the visuals. It was certainly strange to see people argue that the recent Curseling e.g. "is" a woman now tho so I would've liked more visual diversity between the genders armor (I mean he could be if you want him to be but nothing about him suggests it outside of a slightly peaked chest armor that the old one (a dude in lore) had as well)....

I'm not sure female Bret knights won't look off to me either, I'll be honest, but I think it's less of a visual contradiction as Brets aren't as massive as CWs. Doesn't ruin anything for me but in a more historically-influenced game such as WHFB it might feel more off than in AoS. 

Some units I would've liked to include much more female sculpts, e.g. Kairic Acolytes for my army, where it just feels natural to have more gals in the club as in a high-fantasy setting, they'd join our nice cult hopefully too. Guess I'm a mixed bag but Im certainly one to argue that it sometimes feels off to me. No offense intended, it's certainly no dealbreaker for me but I count myself to "one of those" in a way. I know many here disagree with my stance there but I think it's fair to explain why I think like that.

realistically, knight armour could be worn the same by men or women. I'm personally happy for stuff like chaos warriors and stormcast to just have different gendered heads. Other units like cultists that aren't heavily armoured do need a bit more though, I just hate seeing accentuated breast armour for anything other than slaanesh

[Snarff]

27 minutes ago, Jagged Red Lines said:

Good, now give us female bloodreavers, marauders, kairics and dwarves to mix in with existing units. All male units - all male armies - look weird af.

 

 

Yes, especially since the lore of pretty much every faction explicitly mentions the female members of each faction. I don't see why they can't also give them model representation. For Fyreslayers I'd especially love female vulkites and hearthguard I can mix in.

I'd love a few upgrade kits for cities containing Duardin and Aelven steelhelms too

[Gitzdee]

7 minutes ago, Luperci said:

realistically, knight armour could be worn the same by men or women. I'm personally happy for stuff like chaos warriors and stormcast to just have different gendered heads. Other units like cultists that aren't heavily armoured do need a bit more though, I just hate seeing accentuated breast armour for anything other than slaanesh

Yes. But we are playing a miniatures game and i would like to be able to clearly see what a model is from a short distance. Some easy to model female features could help to differentiate them from each other. I would like to see the difference from a long haired dude and a female warrior.

[Snarff]

34 minutes ago, Gitzdee said:

I agree with the part that a headswap doesnt make something female. Fully commit to female designs or dont imho.

I honestly disagree. Female headswaps is already a ton better than all male armies. I think the chaos warriors look completely fine with the female heads.

[Snarff]

1 minute ago, Gitzdee said:

I would like to see the difference from a long haired dude and a female warrior.

Why though? By all means, they should look similar, and it doesn't impact gameplay in any way. Male and female Stormcast look extremely similar too.

Basically the only way to tell from far away is for models to have unnecessarily and unrealistically oversexualized female armor like boobplates or give them bare bellies like so many MMOs do, which is really ****** for factions who are supposed to have fully armored warriors.

[Snarff]

20 minutes ago, Luperci said:

realistically, knight armour could be worn the same by men or women. I'm personally happy for stuff like chaos warriors and stormcast to just have different gendered heads. Other units like cultists that aren't heavily armoured do need a bit more though, I just hate seeing accentuated breast armour for anything other than slaanesh

So much this. Stormcast men and women barely look any different from each other, and they're much better for it.

For factions like Fyreslayers, more divergent design makes a lot of sense. For Kharadron, some Valaya masks and some subtly different body types could already be enough (and a few female uncovered heads too since they're doing that more and more with male heads.

And for factions like Slaanesh and Daughters of Khaine it makes sense. Sigvald has half his ass hanging out too.

[Grungnisson]

8 minutes ago, Snarff said:

I honestly disagree. Female headswaps is already a ton better than all male armies. I think the chaos warriors look completely fine with the female heads.

+1. Joanne D'Arc wore male armour. Time to accept the boob armour is there only to appeal to the libido of a certain demographic. So yes, when it's a full plate that we're talking about, head swaps are perfectly sufficient.

[MitGas]

3 minutes ago, Snarff said:

Why though? By all means, they should look similar, and it doesn't impact gameplay in any way. Male and female Stormcast look extremely similar too.

Do they really? I mean, yes, their armor has a very similar look but the dimensions are completely different. Certainly beats putting a female head on a dude's body and be done with it IMO.

 

24 minutes ago, Luperci said:

realistically, knight armour could be worn the same by men or women. I'm personally happy for stuff like chaos warriors and stormcast to just have different gendered heads. Other units like cultists that aren't heavily armoured do need a bit more though, I just hate seeing accentuated breast armour for anything other than slaanesh

Stormcast have a clear distinction between m and f models too. Hence why I think Chaos warriors would look better that way too, although I don't really see Chaos Warriors as something feminine in general anyways but that's not really part of the discussion. But right now it feels like putting a female head on a fyreslayer and go "there - here's your female version. Be happy".

[pnkdth]

5 minutes ago, MitGas said:

But right now it feels like putting a female head on a fyreslayer and go "there - here's your female version. Be happy".

That's a different case, mainly because of the lack of armour. In those cases there needs to be more options on the sprue.

Edited December 20, 2023 by pnkdth

[MitGas]

3 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

+1. Joanne D'Arc wore male armour. Time to accept the boob armour is there only to appeal to the libido of a certain demographic. So yes, when it's a full plate that we're talking about, head swaps are perfectly sufficient.

That's not really the point tho. Nobody said they needed to have boob armor or child-bearing hips, it's about proportions, not armor details. Also, Joan of Arc is usually seen in a much bigger size (artwork or TV/movie representations) than minis so you can see it by her face and height or even movement that she's female, minis do have their own proportions so they need more distinct visual cues than RL examples to work that well by the fact that they're small, static pieces of plastic. hence why female bret knights will likely work better (disregarding the historical novelty of women wearing armor like that) than say Chaos Warriors!

See this Joan of Arc mini for example, it's bigger than AoS minis but due to the realistic proportions it reads as female right away:
 

And this does not really:

[MitGas]

5 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

That's a different case, mainly because of the lack of armour. In those cases there needs to be more options on the sprue.

Chaos Warriors armor is hyper-masculine without being modeled on the male physique (think armor with a chest and abs) to say the least. Put a female head on a classic liberator's body and it would look off too. 

[The Red King]

17 minutes ago, Snarff said:

So much this. Stormcast men and women barely look any different from each other, and they're much better for it.

I have to disagree and agree. I think female thunderstrike stormcast have much better proportions than the men though not necesarrily more FEMALE proportions. So much so that I would be happier to have an army of only female sculpts and just call some of them men. But that's just because I like the thunderstruck armor so much more and wish it had gone further to making them not look like ridiculous slabs of golden ham.

 

Edit: @mitgas I disagree. That model could just as easily be a realistic depiction of sir gawain or something. Historically male armor had "child bearing hips" (a pinched waist) and boob plate (a peaked chest). The first because that was what was attractive in a man at the time and the second for practical reasons.

Edited December 20, 2023 by The Red King

[MitGas]

10 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Edit: @mitgas I disagree. That model could just as easily be a realistic depiction of sir gawain or something. Historically male armor had "child bearing hips" (a pinched waist) and boob plate (a peaked chest). The first because that was what was attractive in a man at the time and the second for practical reasons.

I think it's obvious that's a woman. What I'm getting at is that a realistic armor is more "unisex" due to the way it looks than some of the fantasy armors we have in AoS/Warhammer that are clearly male (like gigantic shoulder pauldrons) in nature. Kinda like Space Marines. Hence why I say that putting just a female head on them doesn't sell the idea all that well, they need to do more to make great female sculpts for those units. it's almost like putting a female head on nude male barbarian and think it's good enough. Y'know, female warriors don't have to wear skimpy armor or anything but if the proportions are not in any way feminine or at least gender-neutral, it's visually off. We don't have movement or even realistic human proportions, nor size/resolution to work with here, it just looks like you stuck some other minis head on it and be done with it. 

Btw, thanks for the interesting discussion so far! 👌

Edited December 20, 2023 by MitGas

[Grungnisson]

1 hour ago, MitGas said:

That's not really the point tho. Nobody said they needed to have boob armor or child-bearing hips, it's about proportions, not armor details. Also, Joan of Arc is usually seen in a much bigger size (artwork or TV/movie representations) than minis so you can see it by her face and height or even movement that she's female, 
 

And yet, the point stands. Historically, there never been such thing as female armour, Full plate was as unisex as it gets. In AoS? Sure, let us let the imagination run wild. But in case of Bretonnia in particular, where we are actually using a historical reference, there's simply no need to see immediately and from a distance that a model is female. That's the whole point. Utill they take the helm off, you're not supposed to be able to tell.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Grungnisson

[Ejecutor]

We are not going anywhere, better go back to the rumours!

[Snarff]

35 minutes ago, MitGas said:

See this Joan of Arc mini for example, it's bigger than AoS minis but due to the realistic proportions it reads as female right away:
 

And this does not really:

See, I don't think every model should look stereotypically feminized to the degree of model you give as an example and honestly, with a male headswap the model would just as easily read as a slightly less broad male knight. It is also painted with a degree of makeup on that I don't think a knight would ever wear into battle.

Women with different body types also exist. And especially heavily armored, highly trained, chaos-blessed female warriors I don't expect to look all slender and dainty just to convey them being female. Then we'd need an equal selection of more slender male body types and armor sets too.

I honestly think the chaos warrior models can read as both male and female, and that's a great thing too. There are female chaos warriors in lore after all. And if you really don't like the female heads, you can always just choose not to use them, but having the option is always better than not having it.

I'll stop derailing the rumour thread now, my excuses. I just got caught up in the discussion a little too much

Edited December 20, 2023 by Snarff