The Rumour Thread

[Ollie Grimwood]

46 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

Okay... but it probably won't get one. GW released errata. I'm sure that fix was good enough for them. 

I’d never say never on that one, Stormcast, Blades of Khorne, Pestilens, FeC and the Rumoured Seraphon rewrites should give a little hope. 

[Walrustaco]

5 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I’d never say never on that one, Stormcast, Blades of Khorne, Pestilens, FeC and the Rumoured Seraphon rewrites should give a little hope. 

Stormcast is a given. Posterboys and all that. Blades of Khorne wasn't exactly a rewrite, just like Pestilens it's 'previous' book was Bloodhound which wasn't even a real battletome.  FEC is a rewrite of an older battletome too. KO have a tome with allegiance abilities. None of those did.

[Ollie Grimwood]

8 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

Stormcast is a given. Posterboys and all that. Blades of Khorne wasn't exactly a rewrite, just like Pestilens it's 'previous' book was Bloodhound which wasn't even a real battletome.  FEC is a rewrite of an older battletome too. KO have a tome with allegiance abilities. None of those did.

They were all Battletomes that got rewrites. You can choose to take a pessimistic outlook as to the chances of KO getting one, but they did get redone. 

[Charleston]

I would be so naive and would predict SCE not to have a new Battletome untill 2020. This year we could see some new Tomes, including a Duardin Rework, Seraphon, Ogors, maybe even Aelfs. Beside of this we will pretty sure see the StD Relaunch and maybe 2 other big range releases (Slaanesh and a new Faction would be my humble guess). The next Stormcast chamber was already hinted to be the Too-Often-Cast-Eternals (Or Recast-Eternals? In my opinion they need a mocking name already) which propably won´t be intended to hit shelfs this year so SCE players can build something new after Sancrosanct before buying the new SCE range.

 

[Walrustaco]

4 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

They were all Battletomes that got rewrites. You can choose to take a pessimistic outlook as to the chances of KO getting one, but they did get redone. 

I wouldn't call it pessimism. It's just that there's no real precedent for rewriting a proper battletome with allegiance abilities other than stormcast. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Thomas Lyons]

13 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

I wouldn't call it pessimism. It's just that there's no real precedent for rewriting a proper battletome with allegiance abilities other than stormcast. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You can believe what you want. You'll see both Sylvaneth and KO late this spring. Mark my words. 

[novakai]

13 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

I wouldn't call it pessimism. It's just that there's no real precedent for rewriting a proper battletome with allegiance abilities other than stormcast. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

well they said they botch the tome so it definitely not a proper battletome by any regards

[PJetski]

15 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

I wouldn't call it pessimism. It's just that there's no real precedent for rewriting a proper battletome with allegiance abilities other than stormcast. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Skaven (Pestilens) and Flesheater Courts are up for preorder in 2 days, both have allegiance in GHB

Edited February 7, 2019 by PJetski

[Kramer]

13 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

I wouldn't call it pessimism. It's just that there's no real precedent for rewriting a proper battletome with allegiance abilities other than stormcast. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Adding more and more bylaws to fit your own gloomy prediction could be explained as pessimism ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

for example, old battletomes got a rewriting So KO might stand a chance is removing factors in the comparison to match my sunny prediction  

[Walrustaco]

Just now, novakai said:

well they said they botch the tome so it definitely not a proper battletome by any regards

Did they really admit that? Where did they say it? Would be interested to read/listen

[Thomas Lyons]

Just now, Walrustaco said:

Did they really admit that? Where did they say it? Would be interested to read/listen

Pete Foley, the head of big box games (so all of warhammer) acknowledged in the talk back session at Nova in Fall of 2017. There was a big oops regarding it on multiple different levels. It was also the last battletome out of the development pipeline before they had the full playtester process in place.  The consequence was the design of a battletome that failed to meet their expectations and now there is a flagship army within their product line that has virutally no representation in the public eye.  Let me reiterate that I've heard from multiple sources that a rewrite is coming.

[Walrustaco]

1 minute ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Let me reiterate that I've heard from multiple sources that a rewrite is coming.

Are you trying to tell me that we have a rumour in the rumour thread? Since you're mentioning that, are there any other rewrites or releases you know of? 

I'm also curious about what you mean by virtually no representation. Are they not still played at tournaments? Did a list with KO not finish 2nd at CanCon as was mentioned?

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Pete Foley, the head of big box games (so all of warhammer) acknowledged in the talk back session at Nova in Fall of 2017. There was a big oops regarding it on multiple different levels. It was also the last battletome out of the development pipeline before they had the full playtester process in place.  The consequence was the design of a battletome that failed to meet their expectations and now there is a flagship army within their product line that has virutally no representation in the public eye.  Let me reiterate that I've heard from multiple sources that a rewrite is coming.

I would hope that any rewrites include changes to battleline because I was tempted to start them as my first army for AoS but as a broke college student at the time I decided against it as there kits weren't exactly the cheapest and their start collecting had no battleline in it.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Just now, Walrustaco said:

Are you trying to tell me that we have a rumour in the rumour thread? Since you're mentioning that, are there any other rewrites or releases you know of? 

I'm also curious about what you mean by virtually no representation. Are they not still played at tournaments? Did a list with KO not finish 2nd at CanCon as was mentioned?

A good tournament player can get results with almost any army, a lot of the competitive players in my area switch armies all the time to challenge themselves. But from what I can tell, there aren't many casual players running them, none in my area and none in the local areas of any of the folks i talk to outside my area. Both of the hobby shops i go to tell me they don't sell either.

[Walrustaco]

Just now, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

A good tournament player can get results with almost any army, a lot of the competitive players in my area switch armies all the time to challenge themselves. But from what I can tell, there aren't many casual players running them, none in my area and none in the local areas of any of the folks i talk to outside my area. Both of the hobby shops i go to tell me they don't sell either.

Why do you think casuals don't play them? You see casuals playing stuff like Aelves or StD. I remember some factions putting me off by seeming hard to transport or seeming easily damaged. I remember that was the initial feelings people had with skyships. 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Just now, Walrustaco said:

Why do you think casuals don't play them? You see casuals playing stuff like Aelves or StD. I remember some factions putting me off by seeming hard to transport or seeming easily damaged. I remember that was the initial feelings people had with skyships. 

I myself have a Slaves army (though i'm currently using it as the basis for a slaanesh army until darkoath drops) but between their less than stellar start collecting set, prices of their other kits, unfamiliarity with being a new army (where as aelves and slaves are based in older armies with nostalgia from WFB) and yes awkward transportation (been dealing with that with my mortis engine lately) they where a hard sell to players with only so much money to spend, my self included as i considered them for my first army, throw their sub par rules on top of that and i can see where many people would be turned off from them. 

[Walrustaco]

1 minute ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

I myself have a Slaves army (though i'm currently using it as the basis for a slaanesh army until darkoath drops) but between their less than stellar start collecting set, prices of their other kits, unfamiliarity with being a new army (where as aelves and slaves are based in older armies with nostalgia from WFB) and yes awkward transportation (been dealing with that with my mortis engine lately) they where a hard sell to players with only so much money to spend, my self included as i considered them for my first army, throw their sub par rules on top of that and i can see where many people would be turned off from them. 

Hmm. Forgot about price as an obvious repellent. If you think about DOK though, they're arguably worse in terms of money, but theyre super strong so people buy them regardless, also Im sure some people just like them, but they are also broken lol. So I guess at least if KO do get a rewrite, they'll get buffed before getting their costs cut. 

[Thomas Lyons]

9 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

Are you trying to tell me that we have a rumour in the rumour thread? Since you're mentioning that, are there any other rewrites or releases you know of? 

Indeed. This is a real rumor. We've heard it multiple times and I'm claiming that I've now heard it from multiple sources. This will be a big battletome year, akin to 40k's codex output last year. We'll see updates for virtually all of the 1e books this year. With the release of the final two Shadespire Nightvault warbands for this season, KO and Sylvaneth, we'll see updated battletomes drop around the same time for those armies.  Current whispers suggest late Spring (April/May).  As a corollary, this shouldn't be surprising as GW has seemingly broadcast their release schedule in the interwoven releases of Battleforce boxes (2017 and 2018), Shadespire Warbands (Season 1 and 2) and Malign Portents Harbingers.  I don't think it is any surprise there there is an interdependent relationship amongst these product lines. 

Moving beyond these rumors and using this observation, its reasonable to suggest that, beyond updating these prior books, we'll see releases for Slaanesh and Slaves to Darkness (that will likely include Darkoath and even Everchosen).  We'll have at least one more big "out of left field, new army", but it is anyone's guess what this is. 

9 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

I'm also curious about what you mean by virtually no representation. Are they not still played at tournaments? Did a list with KO not finish 2nd at CanCon as was mentioned?

LLV/Honest Wargamer's statistics don't lie.  KO doesn't have representation at events.  Even the KO list that did well finished 10th or 11th since it lost its final game. I was one of the primary KO players last season, a moderator in the KO FB group, and am still active in the KO whatsapp chat. Let me assure you that there isn't alot of KO presence at events, and when the those few do show up, most aren't winning a majority of their games.  That's what made the performance at Cancon so remarkable. 


And while there was no direct recording of the session I mentioned from Nova 2017, here is the conversation being reported by us on Warhammer weekly,  a couple days after it took place.  
 

 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

1 minute ago, Walrustaco said:

Hmm. Forgot about price as an obvious repellent. If you think about DOK though, they're arguably worse in terms of money, but theyre super strong so people buy them regardless, also Im sure some people just like them, but they are also broken lol. So I guess at least if KO do get a rewrite, they'll get buffed before getting their costs cut. 

Even have a way to make gunhaulers battleline or something so that you don't have to drop $150 (canadian monopoly money) on the bare minimum arkanaut company required to play. Then there's the $100-150 cost of there larger airships... Yeah considering I was a broke college student at the time I found it much easier to put together a LoN army.

[Walrustaco]

1 minute ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Let me assure you that there isn't alot of KO presence at events, and when the those few do show up, most aren't winning a majority of their games.  That's what made the performance at Cancon so remarkable.

Do you think that performance might signal that they can perform well or is it just a one off? All I'm reading, of course, is results. I didn't watch any games, what makes it so remarkable? Can other players not emulate this?

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

1 minute ago, Walrustaco said:

Do you think that performance might signal that they can perform well or is it just a one off? All I'm reading, of course, is results. I didn't watch any games, what makes it so remarkable? Can other players not emulate this?

They have a few neat tricks, like grapple hooking around in the shooing phase, but there transportation rules with their airships does handicap you a fair bit for using one of their unique mechanics, so i feel it comes down to a perfect storm of skill, enemy army and mission type.

[novakai]

10 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

Why do you think casuals don't play them? You see casuals playing stuff like Aelves or StD. I remember some factions putting me off by seeming hard to transport or seeming easily damaged. I remember that was the initial feelings people had with skyships. 

there rule set are kind of wonky and you have to remember a lot them when playing KO which still lead to less then steller mechanics and gameplay, they are definitely harder to play in a casual setting. also they are universally consider weak at the moment that even casual player are aware of it.

if you compare them to say Ironjawz, who are not exactly a top tier army, they have such easy to remember rules and mechanics and are considered fun to play that they even show up in tournament because people like playing them casually in that setting

[Walrustaco]

1 minute ago, novakai said:

there rule set are kind of wonky and you have to remember a lot them when playing KO which still lead to less then steller mechanics and gameplay, they are definitely harder to play in a casual setting. also they are universally consider weak at the moment that even casual player are aware of it.

if you compare them to say Ironjawz, who are not exactly a top tier army, they have such easy to remember rules and mechanics and are considered fun to play that they even show up in tournament because people like playing them casually in that setting

Power aside, I don't think it's a bad thing to have some armies be more complicated. Some people like the complexity.

[novakai]

Just now, Walrustaco said:

Power aside, I don't think it's a bad thing to have some armies be more complicated. Some people like the complexity.

yeah but you expect the complexity to equal better results when your playing them which is not what happen when you play KO and trying to use boats to do it. like DoK are complex and harder to master, but when you do you usually end up smashing face

and in casual play, people like drinking beer and rolling dices without thinking to hard

[Thomas Lyons]

Just now, Walrustaco said:

Do you think that performance might signal that they can perform well or is it just a one off? All I'm reading, of course, is results. I didn't watch any games, what makes it so remarkable? Can other players not emulate this?

I've always held that KO can perform in the hands of a competent player with the right matchups.  I think that's what happened here.  But the stats don't lie.  Here are the most recent numbers, and this has been tallied since the start of AOS 2.0.

KO represents 1.6% of the current meta representation over the last 6 months, the same amount of players currently playing Beastclaw Raiders as an allegiance in the meta and less than any other army that has been released since that book was released, and even those immediately before it. It currently has a 38.6% win ratio, meaning that they'll win 2 games in each event on average.  Of the 43 allegiances showing up at events, KO ranks as 37th on their win ratio. So, KO only wins more matches (on average) than 6 other armies in the entire game.  Those six armies include Beastclaw Raiders (38%), Spiderfang (33.3%), Brayherds (32%), Slaves to Darkness (30%), Darkling Coven (30%), and  Everchosen (16.7%).  Ironically, of those six, Spiderfang and Brayherds have already been updated and so their stats will only increase, and Everchosen and Slaves to Darkness are queued up to be updated as well (as previously noted) and will likely no longer sit at the bottom.   Let that sink in. That means KO will only beat out 2 other armies in the entire game for win ratios. Hope those numbers help put skin on my claims.