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Rate this list fellow hedonites !

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord of Pain (155)
- General
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
Dexcessa, The Talon of Slaanesh (280)
Synessa, The Voice of Slaanesh (260)
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (265)
The Contorted Epitome (255)
- Lore of Slaanesh: Hysterical Frenzy

Battleline
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)
5 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (185)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Wheels of Excruciation (100)
Mesmerising Mirror (80)
Dreadful Visage (90)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 67
Drops: 8
 

Sigrasld.JPG

Edited by Khendall
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7 hours ago, LeonBox said:

Wish me luck fellas, I just got my commissioned mortal models back and am fielding a fairly ridiculous all-mortal list tonight (yes -- even Slaangors!): 

 

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Godseekers Host
- Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Glutos Orscollion, Lord of Gluttony (475)*
- Lore of Pain and Pleasure: Battle Rapture
Lord of Pain (155)*
- General
- Command Trait: Battle-lust
- Artefact: Cameo of the Dark Prince
- Host Option: General

Battleline
22 x Blissbarb Archers (360)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (185)*
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)*

Units
3 x Slaangor Fiendbloods (150)*
5 x Slickblade Seekers (230)*
5 x Blissbarb Seekers (220)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114
Drops: 2
 

My opponent is going a new army -- Stormcast Eternals -- and I've never faced them before, so if nothing else it's gonna be quite a nice change of pace. 

Rip lol

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17 minutes ago, Khendall said:

Rate this list fellow hedonites !

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord of Pain (155)
- General
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
Dexcessa, The Talon of Slaanesh (280)
Synessa, The Voice of Slaanesh (260)
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (265)
The Contorted Epitome (255)
- Lore of Slaanesh: Hysterical Frenzy

Battleline
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)
5 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (185)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Wheels of Excruciation (100)
Mesmerising Mirror (80)
Dreadful Visage (90)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 67
Drops: 8
 

Sigrasld.JPG

It depends on what your expectations are. I like Synessa and the dreadful visage spell with an epitome. The rest I am unsure of. The fact that you have very few wounds on the table is my main concern

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4 minutes ago, azdimy said:

It depends on what your expectations are. I like Synessa and the dreadful visage spell with an epitome. The rest I am unsure of. The fact that you have very few wounds on the table is my main concern

We can all thank the Slaanesh Battletome Guy !

Having a 2k army with 50 wounds is a real pleasure 

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Had a 1k game vs Soulblight Gravelords. They were still learning their army so I wouldn't take any of this as gospel as they made some mistakes, but it at least should provide some insight into some lists at 1k. 

In the end I went with:

Lurid Haze (only for the command ability)

Glutos (475)

Lord of Pain (155) - Lurid Haze artefact and trait

5 Twinsouls (185)

5 Twinsouls (185) 

1000/1000

 Their list was

Coven Throne 

Radukar

5 Bloodknights

3 The Bloodborne vampire things

10 skeletons 

The cursed city Varghulf 

---

Without going over the game play by play (like I said, they made mistakes with deployment which meant the game was easier from the start), I ended the game with more points than I started as I summoned a unit of fiends and didn't lose a unit (though nearly lost a unit of twinsouls, but managed to get a very lucky 3 back from the hero phase command ability).

Glutos in 1000 points is pretty unreasonable and I only brought him as I was asked to. He tanks hits like no one's business and does a decent chunk of damage too (though whiffed everything two combats in a row). His one weakness is that he can't be everywhere and he takes a massive chunk of points so you can find yourself surrounded should the other troops die. As the opponent can't bring things like Archaon or Teclis, he does well for casting and there's not that much that can bring him down in a round. 

The Lord of Pain was more there as a general, but he did some okay damage to Radukar and the Varghulf creature, and he didn't die so that was good. 

The twinsouls struggled a little as the opponent could use the coven throne to put a lot of things on a +1 save, and they were getting relatively lucky with their saves. They still didn't die, and three of them killed 10 skeletons no problem.

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36 minutes ago, Khendall said:

Rate this list fellow hedonites !

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord of Pain (155)
- General
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
Dexcessa, The Talon of Slaanesh (280)
Synessa, The Voice of Slaanesh (260)
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (265)
The Contorted Epitome (255)
- Lore of Slaanesh: Hysterical Frenzy

Battleline
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)
5 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (185)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Wheels of Excruciation (100)
Mesmerising Mirror (80)
Dreadful Visage (90)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 67
Drops: 8

You're trying to do too many things at the same time which means you end up with 280(!) points of endless spells, 1215 points of characters, which means you got 75% of your points spent before you even started to consider what you want to do with the rest of the  army (how are you going to complete battle tactics, for example?). I think you need to ask yourself what you want to do with the list and go back to the drawing board.

Most successful lists have a plan to establish a presence, generate DPs, and summoning in the appropriate units. Mostly because, like it or not, summoning is a large part in how we put pressure on the opponent and outmanoeuvre them in the later stages of the game.

In concrete teams this means to drop all of the endless spells, add cogs, since it supplements both the epitome and synessa and her large choice of spells. Get more bodies in by dropping dexcessa and add in 5 more twinsouls to the existing units and some archers. Don't have a calculator here but if points them allow go for hellstriders (I prefer whips since they're good at being annoying) or allying some furies to disrupt your opponent's movement. 

TL;DR: Summoning tax means you gotta create a clear direction with the units you put on the table and build with a plan to summon in reinforcements. Not saying you should obsess over DPs but you should have a plan on how you start to take charge and put pressure on the opponent. Hedonites require you to think a bit different about your list than other armies since we bring stuff in later... Because while we pay a summoning tax the units brought in later are "free" and since you have a huge freedom in the type of unit you bring you it is a tactical tool.

Personally, I prefer to plan in detail what to bring in and force my opponent to react/supplement my own plan. However, like Mike Tyson said, "everyone's got a plan till they get punched in the face", so it is nice to have a wide variety of summoning options. :D

Assuming you got the models in the list you post you got a good start to make a varied set of lists though but I do no rate the current list highly (but I have been wrong before).

 

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The thing about the Keeper is that rules-wise it's one of our most improved units in 3.0, and ultimately it's a versatile lynchpin which gives us something that can't be found elsewhere (double pile-in for Hedonites.) The generic commands, Heroic Actions and being a monster for bonus scoring (and rampages) are all big buffs for it as its value as a generalist support piece has shot way up to help offset its very swingy damage output. I think most have clued into the fact it isn't a straight up combat monster anymore; like a Glutos, it can potentially do huge damage, but you shouldn't count on it for that. It's one of the models where you can definitely see why it got the increase it did as it would've been very obviously too good at 340, though I think 380-390 is probably the sweet spot for it. 420 is just a tough pill to swallow right now given our other options and how easy it is to just summon one in, but the rules for it are still great, and a list built around one can't really look elsewhere for alternatives that do the same thing as they simply don't exist.

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2 hours ago, Jaskier said:

The thing about the Keeper is that rules-wise it's one of our most improved units in 3.0, and ultimately it's a versatile lynchpin which gives us something that can't be found elsewhere (double pile-in for Hedonites.) The generic commands, Heroic Actions and being a monster for bonus scoring (and rampages) are all big buffs for it as its value as a generalist support piece has shot way up to help offset its very swingy damage output. I think most have clued into the fact it isn't a straight up combat monster anymore; like a Glutos, it can potentially do huge damage, but you shouldn't count on it for that. It's one of the models where you can definitely see why it got the increase it did as it would've been very obviously too good at 340, though I think 380-390 is probably the sweet spot for it. 420 is just a tough pill to swallow right now given our other options and how easy it is to just summon one in, but the rules for it are still great, and a list built around one can't really look elsewhere for alternatives that do the same thing as they simply don't exist.

Yes I think this is important to bear in mind -- a Keeper is not going toe to toe with most other monsters anymore, or even specialized hero characters. I charged a summoned Keeper into Yndraste (the Stormcast lady on the ruined stairs) last and put a paltry two wounds on her, even with 5 mortals from a claw (my opponent rolled well on his 4++). The Keeper then died outright from a combination of her unleash hell (5 wounds) and her spear attacks (my opponent rolled well on his attacks, and if you're noticing a pattern here then you're a sharp cookie). It made me pretty damn salty until I realised that she was a terrible target for the Keeper anyway, but it still does annoy me how ineffectual the Keeper is these days.

My all-mortal list in general didn't do amazingly. My opponent had, roughly: 

2x3 drop-pod Captain America guys (Annihilators?) 

2x5 spear battleline dudes 

2x5 bodyguard dudes 

Yndraste

Guy with bird-dog 

Guy with big banner 

Mask-wearing wizard girl from the Dominion box 

Gotrek (sigh) 

My brave boys and girls ready to rock: 

 

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I put all 42 of my Blissbarb shots on Gotrek turn 1 (my opponent forced me to go first, as we each had two drops and he won the deployment roll) and managed 2 wounds through all-out defence and his 3++. These were promptly healed back with heroic recovery, which really makes Gotrek all but unkillable. 

Annihilators are pretty nasty and you need to keep vulnerable stuff well screened. My Blissbarbs were too far forward and ate a charge from both units (one on a re-rollable 7 and the other on a re-rollable 9). 

523238133.jpg.7d2d9a7bbe2d129d833459e93a232a4e.jpg

I only got one round with the Slickblades. My opponent got Gotrek into them on a long charge (what are the odds?) after a CP re-roll and promptly wiped them out. 

837960811.jpg.8c4cf088cd95d6eac76ab27ba9df8f42.jpg

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Blissbarb Seekers are decent, but very reliant on those sixes for mortal wounds. If I didn't get any they tended to do very little damage. 

Twinsouls are not great against Stormcast with those high armour saves across the board. They ended up stuck fighting Annihilators, which with their native 2+ armour save are the worst thing for them to be fighting. 

The Keeper, as mentioned, got summoned, charged, died. Very sour on them right now I have to say, but in retrospect I should have summoned a Daemonette blob. 

993591147.jpg.2ff732857dedd5a74dbfd4e23433a4d4.jpg

Slaangors died to a triple charge without raising a claw. I failed a 9" charge (8" with Godseekers) with them and didn't want to waste a CP, and then they ate a triple charge from Yndraste, Lord with bird-dog and bodyguard dudes. 

1716560477.jpg.c2838a239543d5896d2283e9f662e5dc.jpg

Overall thoughts: our lack of rend really, really hurt here because SCE have such high armour saves across the board. I was also severely punished for not taking our best answer to both Yndraste and Gotrek, Sigvald. I'm beginning to find it's almost never a good idea not to include Sigvald, he's just too good to pass up. 

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1 hour ago, LeonBox said:

Yes I think this is important to bear in mind -- a Keeper is not going toe to toe with most other monsters anymore, or even specialized hero characters. I charged a summoned Keeper into Yndraste (the Stormcast lady on the ruined stairs) last and put a paltry two wounds on her, even with 5 mortals from a claw (my opponent rolled well on his 4++). The Keeper then died outright from a combination of her unleash hell (5 wounds) and her spear attacks (my opponent rolled well on his attacks, and if you're noticing a pattern here then you're a sharp cookie). It made me pretty damn salty until I realised that she was a terrible target for the Keeper anyway, but it still does annoy me how ineffectual the Keeper is these days.

My all-mortal list in general didn't do amazingly. My opponent had, roughly: 

2x3 drop-pod Captain America guys (Annihilators?) 

2x5 spear battleline dudes 

2x5 bodyguard dudes 

Yndraste

Guy with bird-dog 

Guy with big banner 

Mask-wearing wizard girl from the Dominion box 

Gotrek (sigh) 

My brave boys and girls ready to rock: 

 

262600042.jpg.c10245d5e6a78b2e912baeee8cbbbd6a.jpg

1783034953.jpg.17f08585851bf0c3bec201c1bb625a7d.jpg

446528494.jpg.928ab5cb1b0699449afb11369175ffee.jpg

I put all 42 of my Blissbarb shots on Gotrek turn 1 (my opponent forced me to go first, as we each had two drops and he won the deployment roll) and managed 2 wounds through all-out defence and his 3++. These were promptly healed back with heroic recovery, which really makes Gotrek all but unkillable. 

Annihilators are pretty nasty and you need to keep vulnerable stuff well screened. My Blissbarbs were too far forward and ate a charge from both units (one on a re-rollable 7 and the other on a re-rollable 9). 

523238133.jpg.7d2d9a7bbe2d129d833459e93a232a4e.jpg

I only got one round with the Slickblades. My opponent got Gotrek into them on a long charge (what are the odds?) after a CP re-roll and promptly wiped them out. 

837960811.jpg.8c4cf088cd95d6eac76ab27ba9df8f42.jpg

1061785663.jpg.69489d408b15e0084bd6e7327bfbd9fc.jpg

217155631.jpg.662dca88d5c61220eca1fbd4fb0eeeca.jpg

Blissbarb Seekers are decent, but very reliant on those sixes for mortal wounds. If I didn't get any they tended to do very little damage. 

Twinsouls are not great against Stormcast with those high armour saves across the board. They ended up stuck fighting Annihilators, which with their native 2+ armour save are the worst thing for them to be fighting. 

The Keeper, as mentioned, got summoned, charged, died. Very sour on them right now I have to say, but in retrospect I should have summoned a Daemonette blob. 

993591147.jpg.2ff732857dedd5a74dbfd4e23433a4d4.jpg

Slaangors died to a triple charge without raising a claw. I failed a 9" charge (8" with Godseekers) with them and didn't want to waste a CP, and then they ate a triple charge from Yndraste, Lord with bird-dog and bodyguard dudes. 

1716560477.jpg.c2838a239543d5896d2283e9f662e5dc.jpg

Overall thoughts: our lack of rend really, really hurt here because SCE have such high armour saves across the board. I was also severely punished for not taking our best answer to both Yndraste and Gotrek, Sigvald. I'm beginning to find it's almost never a good idea not to include Sigvald, he's just too good to pass up. 

I think this is a great demonstration of how hyper-specialized we are, and how uphill it can be if we find our units paired against their least optimal matchups. I also found myself in this position during my last tournament, where I had very little high rend on the board and was facing 5-6 squads of deep-striking annihilators. While they're not the best at the moment, I think keepers may be one of our better choices against 2+ saves, though it's highly dependent on MW spikes. Exalted or seeker chariots may be a good matchup too, but will probably die more quickly on the return swing.

I agree that Yndrasta is probably one of our worst targets for a keeper, due to how severely hampered they are on the lowest bracket. Sigvald and Synessa are probably our best counters against her at this point, which is unfortunate as I dislike being tethered to special characters, but we don't really have the luxury of choice at the moment.

Something I'm considering as a way to punch through high armor is utilizing curse via a warshrine on the target and Blissbarbs to provide a high volume of attacks that don't have another 6 to-hit trigger. If we really need to assure destruction we can attempt to cast acquiescence of either variety to reroll 1's in addition. However I don't necessarily like how many points that takes, and how reliant on a 50-50 chance it is. It's a shame neither the shardspeaker nor Glutos have the priest keyword, despite having abilities that are pretty clearly prayers.

The other problem is that annihilators do the majority of their damage on the turn they land, especially with the hero that allows them to drop 7 away and the other hero that allows a significant bonus to their charge rolls to ensure they make their initial charges. It's a question I'm still puzzling out a good answer to. I've been advised to zone them out, but even with our speed that's a big ask, and we don't have cheap chaff that can easily get into position and be thrown away without losing a significant amount of points. I don't think this situation will improve with the new book, and I find it kinda irksome that we have to build around skew lists that are so oppressive.

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2 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

The other problem is that annihilators do the majority of their damage on the turn they land, especially with the hero that allows them to drop 7 away and the other hero that allows a significant bonus to their charge rolls to ensure they make their initial charges. It's a question I'm still puzzling out a good answer to. I've been advised to zone them out, but even with our speed that's a big ask, and we don't have cheap chaff that can easily get into position and be thrown away without losing a significant amount of points. I don't think this situation will improve with the new book, and I find it kinda irksome that we have to build around skew lists that are so oppressive.

They are definitely tough for an elite army like us to deal with. I feel like we should definitely have some cheap throwaway Hedonite cultists that could deal with stuff like this -- drugged-out dagger suicide cultists like the Blissbarbs, but lacking their bows and way cheaper. I don't want to have to ally in ungors for this kind of thing, but they might be necessary. 

 

2 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

Something I'm considering as a way to punch through high armor is utilizing curse via a warshrine on the target and Blissbarbs to provide a high volume of attacks that don't have another 6 to-hit trigger. If we really need to assure destruction we can attempt to cast acquiescence of either variety to reroll 1's in addition. However I don't necessarily like how many points that takes, and how reliant on a 50-50 chance it is. It's a shame neither the shardspeaker nor Glutos have the priest keyword, despite having abilities that are pretty clearly prayers.

I agree that it's not great we don't have any native priest options (and, indeed, only one priest option across the whole of Chaos). Glutos would be the obvious choice but he's already very powerful. 

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2 hours ago, LeonBox said:

They are definitely tough for an elite army like us to deal with. I feel like we should definitely have some cheap throwaway Hedonite cultists that could deal with stuff like this -- drugged-out dagger suicide cultists like the Blissbarbs, but lacking their bows and way cheaper. I don't want to have to ally in ungors for this kind of thing, but they might be necessary. 

 

I agree that it's not great we don't have any native priest options (and, indeed, only one priest option across the whole of Chaos). Glutos would be the obvious choice but he's already very powerful. 

I really would love to have a unit that represents the midpoint between blissbarb and myrmadesh, as I can't imagine they all become seekers in the interim. Some kind of speardancers or revellers with weapon/shield or dual wielding would be great on both a mechanical and a lore level.

Considering we've had two duel boxes already I don't have high hopes that we'll see another anytime soon, but I'd love to see a mounted mortal leader option introduced through something like that eventually. Possibly a dual kit with a priest or lord option on the classic snake steed. 

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29 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said:

Some kind of speardancers or revellers with weapon/shield or dual wielding would be great on both a mechanical and a lore level.

Exactly, and I can imagine Glutos and/or Sigvald having a gang of groupies and hangers-on that would toss themselves to the wolves in order to impress their masters. Give me the Slaanesh equivalent of Skavenslaves! 

 

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Reading all of the above, really does echo my own thoughts. It feels like we are hampered by our choices and to even attempt to play into the meta we have to ally in coalition units to even stand a chance. I don't think any of the other Chaos books (even BoC) need to do that. I mean, we can do it solo with our book but, like you say, it feels sometimes like you're hamstringing yourself to do it. 

Everytime I sit down and write a list it feels like a sacrifice, if I want to do A I can't take B or C, if I want B, then A, C and D are off the table. I don't feel that away about any other army I build for. Sure, you normally can't include everything, that's one of the fun things about list building to me, balancing what you can and can't take but Hedonites, man, it just feels like you are always giving more away than you want to. It's a an incredibly sexy army model wise, the fact it requires so much effort to have a chance of winning compared to other armies just seems, yeah, like they were targetted to be this way. It's almost like we got the guy who likes narrative gaming in charge of our book where as DoK, LRL, Tzeentch etc.... got the Matched Play guy. 

I don't want to be back to 2019 and ROFLstomp everything, I just want to be able to take units and be able to have a good game without feeling like I've got to utilise quantum physics to play the army when others have a much more straightforward set of either Warscroll abilities or even just don't pay through the nose for units like we do, just because we can summon them. 

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1 hour ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Reading all of the above, really does echo my own thoughts. It feels like we are hampered by our choices and to even attempt to play into the meta we have to ally in coalition units to even stand a chance. I don't think any of the other Chaos books (even BoC) need to do that. I mean, we can do it solo with our book but, like you say, it feels sometimes like you're hamstringing yourself to do it. 

Every single one of the three top 10 list was a pure hedonite army. Not only that, they were also completely different lists. Heard there was another list who went 3-0 at an event recently but not sure what was in that list.

As I detailed in the my previous post, building a hedonite list means you need to consider summoning before the game. Going in blind is, in my opinion, a mistake as you should also have an idea of what you will need to complement your game plan. In practical terms this means your initial list will be smaller but we're also unique in being able to bring in almost any unit or hero we want. Imagine how utterly broken we'd be if we could both field a solid army up front and utilise what's arguably the most powerful summoning mechanic in the game.

To me there's a big difference between units which are 'nice to have' and 'must have.' A cheap screen is a 'nice to have' but if that evolves into a 'must have', either through meta or list-building, then you have a lot of options in BoC, S2D, etc. My point is, we have access to a lot of 'nice to have' if you feel you have to have them.

Taking all of this into account it means we have a battletome which can produce a varied set of lists and still do well at the top tables. In addition, we do not need the help from other tomes or allies. We're not be triple S tier but evidently the battletome has some serious play AND it seems we've just scratched the surface.

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Just curious, for those who say we're lacking something that makes us 'easily' competitive (not competitive at all but rather the claim we're a lot harder to win with), what would you say the main issue is for this? Too high points? Lack of combos? Lack of "tricks" or broken units? 

Not saying I disagree that we are often a lot harder to win with in some cases, but I'm just curious why you think this is the case? And also how it could be solved? :)

As @pnkdth has pointed out, pure Hedonites can do well and I would agree that we don't need the help of S2D, and I'd argue that most coalition/allies range from 'nice to have but not necissary' to 'wasting points' (besides Archaon and Belekor, if Archaon even counts as he is a Hedonits), but I do also agree with @CeleFAZE that we can struggle to answer certain threats without playing very well. I'm just wondering the consensus on why this is the case.

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I've only found time to get in a handful of 2k sized games of 3.0, but to me it feels quite restrictive to have the faction centered so heavily around mid/late-game summoning to succeed whilst also having the vast majority of units with paper-thin defenses, you're almost forced into bringing a solid anchor piece (which is pretty much a choice of Glutos, Archaon, or maybe Belakor) or else run the risk of getting your high points, low defense army rolled over before you can get any meaningful swings via summoning.  Whilst we've seen a pretty varied selection of lists succeeding recently to my eye it feels like the book forces you to either heavily rely on some sort of anvil character, or else play with absolutely perfect precision in spacing/positioning, and in high-level competitive play the former is likely to become trickier if those sorts of stubborn heroes remain commonplace and lists shift to deal with them, whilst the latter is, obviously, a very difficult tactic to pull off against highly skilled opponents.

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6 hours ago, Enoby said:

Just curious, for those who say we're lacking something that makes us 'easily' competitive (not competitive at all but rather the claim we're a lot harder to win with), what would you say the main issue is for this? Too high points? Lack of combos? Lack of "tricks" or broken units? 

Not saying I disagree that we are often a lot harder to win with in some cases, but I'm just curious why you think this is the case? And also how it could be solved? :)

As @pnkdth has pointed out, pure Hedonites can do well and I would agree that we don't need the help of S2D, and I'd argue that most coalition/allies range from 'nice to have but not necissary' to 'wasting points' (besides Archaon and Belekor, if Archaon even counts as he is a Hedonits), but I do also agree with @CeleFAZE that we can struggle to answer certain threats without playing very well. I'm just wondering the consensus on why this is the case.

I think we lack units with rend 2 or consistent  mortal wounds output. I truly believe that GW does not understand that a MW on a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound is not the same thing at all

We are also suffering greatly from close to half the battle tactics being unachievable by summoned units

I d be ok if a summoned unit could not score a battle tactic on The turn it was summoned but the current rules are too much weighted against what our army can do ( rely on)

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7 minutes ago, azdimy said:

I think we lack units with rend 2 or consistent  mortal wounds output. I truly believe that GW does not understand that a MW on a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound is not the same thing at all

We are also suffering greatly from close to half the battle tactics being unachievable by summoned units

I d be ok if a summoned unit could not score a battle tactic on The turn it was summoned but the current rules are too much weighted against what our army can do ( rely on)

In 3rd, MW on wound rolls are suddenly very important, with our hit rolls in melee already offering a bonus on 6's.  MW on 6's to wound stack - MW on 6's to hit wouldn't.  

I'd honestly take a couple more units with MW's on 6's to wound if we could get them.

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17 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

In 3rd, MW on wound rolls are suddenly very important, with our hit rolls in melee already offering a bonus on 6's.  MW on 6's to wound stack - MW on 6's to hit wouldn't.  

I'd honestly take a couple more units with MW's on 6's to wound if we could get them.

I d take the option between euphoric killer and straight mortal wound any day of the week over euphoric killer and mortal wound on 6 to wound. How useful did we find the epicurian reveler battallion in 2nd? It was nowwhere worth it s point value but someone at gw thought so

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2 hours ago, azdimy said:

I think we lack units with rend 2 or consistent  mortal wounds output. I truly believe that GW does not understand that a MW on a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound is not the same thing at all

I'd imagine it's due to Euphoric Killers, but their inconsistency on when mortal wounds are applied is very annoying. Why do Sentinels do them on their hit rolls but Blissbarb Seekers do them on their wound rolls (this one doesn't even have the excuse of Euphoric Killers)? Why does a Terrorgheist do a straight 6 MWs on a 6 to hit, but Keepers do them on their wound roll? 

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3 hours ago, azdimy said:

I d take the option between euphoric killer and straight mortal wound any day of the week over euphoric killer and mortal wound on 6 to wound. How useful did we find the epicurian reveler battallion in 2nd? It was nowwhere worth it s point value but someone at gw thought so

 

1 hour ago, LeonBox said:

I'd imagine it's due to Euphoric Killers, but their inconsistency on when mortal wounds are applied is very annoying. Why do Sentinels do them on their hit rolls but Blissbarb Seekers do them on their wound rolls (this one doesn't even have the excuse of Euphoric Killers)? Why does a Terrorgheist do a straight 6 MWs on a 6 to hit, but Keepers do them on their wound roll? 

Just as an important point, even if it doesn't sound intuitive, mortal wounds on 6s to hit (in addition) vs mortal wounds on 6s to wound (in addition) plus extra hits on 6s to hit do very similar numbers of mortal wounds, with the latter doing more damage against a 3+ save overall.

Mortal wounds on 6s to hit with 18 attacks:

Screenshot_20210823-070417_Chrome.jpg.d97c397b8cb1a8dbf2d41e54fbc1d367.jpg

(Orange bar is Mortal Wounds)

Mortal wounds on 18 attacks (15 hits)

Screenshot_20210823-070333_Chrome.jpg.f81ba6e00f33783aaf8c1822cb825370.jpg

The difference is very small and overall it works out better to do mortal wounds on 6s to wound. It would be a nerf for this to be changed to hits :)

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15 minutes ago, Enoby said:

The difference is very small and overall it works out better to do mortal wounds on 6s to wound. It would be a nerf for this to be changed to hits :)

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought this to be the case. Isn't most of our MW damage not "in addition" but "and the attack sequence ends" though? Does this affect the stats? 

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