AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, Havkai said:

Well, My opponent tried typical Hag Narr DoK. The only pain in the butt is Morathi, but she constantly generates DP because can't be killed. Sigvald is invaluable here as he ignores devotee and shreds through witch elves. Glutos with geminids creates an enourmous debuff bubble. And geminids now also generates dp when cast (but not between rounds. I think). Archers chip everything else, ran onto objectives and screened glutos. KoS went ahead to double activate Siggy. Golden Boy killed Bloodwrack medusa and 15 witch elves. By the end of my first turn I degraded Morathi, inflicted at least 1 wound to each enemy unit. Bloodwrack is dead, He spent the only CP on one pack of witch elves, other has run away. And all army is under gemininds. Because new Hag Nar trait makes you group up a lot around General. And I got 8 DP.
Gloomspite played squigs and it was not very informative.
CoS is fine because everyone plays PG and Siggy loves them. Also generates lots of DP. Last time I played against Hallowheart and it was a bit harder because more mortal wounds than regular Hammerhall. But again outflanking Siggy makes opponent to stretch a lot and still loose something valuable. Also charging a wall of PGuards with new locus is pure satisfaction. I had about 10 DP at my second turn, spent everything and generated 8 again. I haven't played against a shooting list so it is in a to-do list.
BCR is harder, it depends on how good opponent will through FNP. Chipping is not very productive because of Mawpot, he simply heals so I had to kill outright a unit and deny DP myself. Sigvald dies on retaliation. It is hard to charge with him and expect him to survive a counter charge with stonehorn. But with Glutos, geminids and Shardspeeker we have a good chance to debuff targets that we are not going to kill this turn. DP generation is a bit slower.
Also I make Siggy 1 of my generals so after outflank if he stays in opp's territory, I get an extra DP.
I feel Slaanesh is a strong tier 2, but will struggle against current meta. I will check later how much agony I will suffer against tier 1 armies)

Thanks very much for the overview

From your experience, would you say there are any units that seem like 'must takes' or anything that we should stay away from?

 

[AngryPanda]

3 hours ago, Havkai said:

Well, My opponent tried typical Hag Narr DoK. The only pain in the butt is Morathi, but she constantly generates DP because can't be killed. Sigvald is invaluable here as he ignores devotee and shreds through witch elves. Glutos with geminids creates an enourmous debuff bubble. And geminids now also generates dp when cast (but not between rounds. I think). Archers chip everything else, ran onto objectives and screened glutos. KoS went ahead to double activate Siggy. Golden Boy killed Bloodwrack medusa and 15 witch elves. By the end of my first turn I degraded Morathi, inflicted at least 1 wound to each enemy unit. Bloodwrack is dead, He spent the only CP on one pack of witch elves, other has run away. And all army is under gemininds. Because new Hag Nar trait makes you group up a lot around General. And I got 8 DP.
Gloomspite played squigs and it was not very informative.
CoS is fine because everyone plays PG and Siggy loves them. Also generates lots of DP. Last time I played against Hallowheart and it was a bit harder because more mortal wounds than regular Hammerhall. But again outflanking Siggy makes opponent to stretch a lot and still loose something valuable. Also charging a wall of PGuards with new locus is pure satisfaction. I had about 10 DP at my second turn, spent everything and generated 8 again. I haven't played against a shooting list so it is in a to-do list.
BCR is harder, it depends on how good opponent will through FNP. Chipping is not very productive because of Mawpot, he simply heals so I had to kill outright a unit and deny DP myself. Sigvald dies on retaliation. It is hard to charge with him and expect him to survive a counter charge with stonehorn. But with Glutos, geminids and Shardspeeker we have a good chance to debuff targets that we are not going to kill this turn. DP generation is a bit slower.
Also I make Siggy 1 of my generals so after outflank if he stays in opp's territory, I get an extra DP.
I feel Slaanesh is a strong tier 2, but will struggle against current meta. I will check later how much agony I will suffer against tier 1 armies)

I predict that the most competitive lists we are going to see coming out of HoS, so far, will include in some combination Sigvald, Glutos, Daemonettes (cheapest battleline we have), and a KoS (summoned or taken via points); Perhaps also Blissbarbs and Seekers. A lot of the mortal stuff is just too overpriced to include in competitive play, but for causal/narrative it might be ok. The only exceptions are Glutos and Sigvald, who are great in their own ways. Across the internet people are generally in agreement that our book is generally weak, and I suspect a point decrease around spring. 

[Enoby]

17 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

I predict that the most competitive lists we are going to see coming out of HoS, so far, will include in some combination Sigvald, Glutos, Daemonettes (cheapest battleline we have), and a KoS (summoned or taken via points); Perhaps also Blissbarbs and Seekers. A lot of the mortal stuff is just too overpriced to include in competitive play, but for causal/narrative it might be ok. The only exceptions are Glutos and Sigvald, who are great in their own ways. Across the internet people are generally in agreement that our book is generally weak, and I suspect a point decrease around spring. 

Just curious, on your first look, what points would you be happy with for the mortals?

[Golub87]

So I have been thinking about the Blissbarbs and I really can't seem to justify taking Archers over Seekers.

Seekers are 180 pts vs Archer's 160 pts. But for that 20 point difference you get almost double the wounds on a much faster unit.

Offensive output of Archers seems to be greater, with 20 attacks and 3+ to wound, but Seekers lose attacks much slower as they take wounds and have MW on 6s. They will last longer and get into range easier thus probably get more shots over the course of the game.

I do not think that more bodies on Archers will matter for objective holding in most cases.

Am I missing something?

 

Other than that, Glutus, Fiends and Shardspeeker seem to be a brutal debuff combination.

Daemons overall look better than ever, I really dig the changes to Locus and Depravity Generation. Contorted Epitome, KoS, BB on EC, Daemonettes... all looking great, especially when summoned in. Hell, even Infernal Enrapturess seems cute with her shooting attack, plinking something long range for that DP.

Twinsouls seem fine for someone else's meta. I routinely face coalesced Seraphon so they are quite useless there and my local group is really heavy with good saves.

Painbringers... not sure about those yet. They seem overcosted for what they do. I'd rather have 10 CWs but I might change my mind.

Slaangors are the saddest beautiful models that will never see play except as a meme. Maybe not even then.

Sigvald is odd and I would love to use the dude, just have no idea how. He is fragile yet he does not do anything aside from hitting stuff up close. What will his average of 7 attacks do against 20 HGBs? He will kill some and then die, not even getting back a fraction of his pts.

Marauders will not be the offensive powerhouse they once were, they will stay OK, but will be of better use as screen than can bite a bit. I am incredibly and overwhelmingly fine with that. It is what they should have been all along.

LoP seems good, but then I compare him to StD equivalents like Shrine and Sorc and it just does not seem to be worth it. Maybe with Glutus or Sigvald? Going with Glutus seems deathstarish and with Sigi just seems like doubling down on something that is not really good to begin with. Slickblades just seem to be too fast for LoP to be useful. I find it hard to find a use for the guy.

Slickblades seem OK. They have not impressed me, but I am optimistic.

ES seem good for depravity generation. Especialy Geminids in combination with the debuff train.

 

All that said I see a few problems:

We do not really have good casters, no way to get even +1 to casting rolls. Teclis and Kroak just shut down our magic phase hard. Vs magic heavy armies we will lose the whole phase of the game.

Our shooting is not good enough to trade  with dedicated shooting armies and we are not resilient enough to stand up to them. We are slightly less vulnerable due to not having an over-reliance on heroes as much, but  we will still be a low wounds army due to the way everything seems to be over-costed. And this time, if they shoot our Keeper off the board in a turn (easily doable), we do not get ANY DP instead of being third of the way to the next one. So against shooting heavy armies we stand to be picked apart.

This translates to KO, Tzeench, Seraphon and Lumineth continuing to wipe the floor with us easily. So no change there, but at least we get to lose against those with more diverse lists and we get to actually play the tome at every stage, starting from list building, instead of the tome playing us. Those are the armies that need to be taken down a notch anyway.

So overall, I find this good. And I also expect the points to go down for a lot of units.

[AngryPanda]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

Just curious, on your first look, what points would you be happy with for the mortals?

Personally, I like Sigvald and Glutos a lot. For their points, they’re solid characters and fun to use. Sigvald is a beautiful model to field, and can earn back his value depending if he is positioned correctly, as he only has a 6 inch movement and 6 wounds.  A hard hitting assassin with no auras and buffs, he can be a decent hammer or scalpel depending on what you want removed. 

Glutos is an all-rounder that can hit hard, cast spells, and also provide synergy for the rest of your army. For his value, we are probably going to see Glutos at the center of a lot of lists. I’ve seen people talking about a Archaon the Everchosen/Glutos combo that would allow you to heal Archaon, essentially making him even harder to kill.

At first, I thought blissbarbs were overpriced, but their cost seems far more reasonable when you consider their battalion, the Dreaded Carnival. Shooting is a luxury, and any variation is always going to make a unit stand out. Being able to shoot a maximum of 66 shots with -1 rend into something during the hero phase, before your opponent can shoot first or retaliate, is extremely powerful and even somewhat op. This also doesn’t include the opportunity to generate additional attacks. The biggest weakness however, is that our archers are very vulnerable to any sort of attacks. Once they’re targeted, they’re not going to last long. Probably the most delicate glass cannons we have in the book. 
 

Both mortal seekers are ok, but would be more reasonable with a small decrease to their costs, especially the Blissbarb seekers. The Slickblades have more potential because they’re very fast, and can cause mortal wounds on 6s. 

The mortals that need the biggest changes to points are the painbringers, twinsouls, and especially the fiendbloods. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by AngryPanda

[swarmofseals]

Got a game in today with the following list:

Godseekers

Keeper (general, speed chaser, enrapturing circlet, progeny of damnation)

Syll'esske (born of damnation)

2x5 Slickblade Seekers

1x10 Slickblade Seekers

3x11 Blissbarb Archers

1x8 Iron Golems

1x5 Plague Censers

Extra CP

 

My opponent took a classic Big Waaagh Ardfist list with 2x20 ardboyz, 3x10 ardboyz, an allied fungoid with cauldron, 2 warchanters, and a weirdnob shaman. This isn't an S tier list but it's definitely very competitive, and it prevented significant tactical challenges for me.

We played Scorched Earth, and I ended up with a close but convincing victory. He conceded going into round 5 with the VP totals 24 to 13 in my favor and with me in control of 5 objectives to his 1.

Batrep

Spoiler

 

Overall I think the luck was a bit in my favor, but it wasn't hugely lopsided. I did benefit from the highest impact rolls: he failed to cast Da Great Green Hand of Gork on turn 1 and he didn't double turn me until turn 3 into 4. He also failed his only roll to bring back a unit of 10 'Ardboys with the Ardfist. That said, I also failed my rerolled charge with my Keeper on turn 1, failed all but 2 of my rolls to self damage with Plague Censers, failed 2/3 of locus rolls and had generally poor run rolls throughout while he got his 3d6 charge ability off 2 out of 3 times, resolved his second teleport, generally had excellent high charge rolls (usually many 8+ rolls before modifiers), and excellent run and waaagh point rolls. Combat was basically as expected on both sides.

His deployment severely stunted my DP generation. He basically deployed everything in a corner castle on my left with all of his heroes out of LOS except one unit holding down the other side of the board. I deployed Syll'Esske, 5 slickblades, all the blissbarbs, and the Iron Golems on my left with 5 slickblades on my right center and the 10 slickblades and keeper on my right center. On my turn 1 I pushed up aggressively on the right and then moved up just enough to shoot a little on my left but I could only barely reach and generated very little depravity. I took 5 VP. His turn 1 he pushed forward but wasn't able to do much either and took 3 VP. My turn 2 I smashed his right flank with my 10 slickblades and managed to do a little bit more shooting (but still only 2 of the 3 units, and they still only had two targets in range. I took 6 VP and burned one of his objectives (a big mistake, for some reason I was thinking you needed a leader on the objective to burn it.)

His turn 2 was pretty brutal, teleporting a big unit of Ardboys behind my lines and sandwiching my front with another unit of ardboyz. He killed all but a few of my archers and wiped a unit of 5 slickblades and my Plague Censers. He also teleported his Fungoid and grabbed my bottom right objective. I was able to get enough DP though through to get to 12.

My turn 3 I swept back down with my 10 seekers and managed to kill the Fungoid, pushed left with my Keeper and summoned 30 Daemonettes in his backline who charged and assassinated his general. Syll'Esske got stuck in. I took a bunch more VP and burned another objective, rolling a 3. I had one lone archer left alive, so the Blissbarbs did very little this game.

He double turned me 3 into 4. On his turn 3 he managed to kill Syll'Esske and all but 2 of the Daemonettes, and then on his turn 4 he finished the Iron Golems and got a charge off into my keeper but luckily the damage was limited as it was a mid to long charge and the charging unit was unbuffed. In my turn 4 I retreated my Keeper and was able to summon in another 30 Daemonettes to take back 2 objectives, and brought up 5 slickblades to screen the keeper from his largest remaining units of 'Ardboys. At this point he conceded.

 

Overall the army played essentially as I expected it to. If I had gone in headlong and tried for a straight up fight I would have lost decisively, but as it was even though I didn't really kill a lot of my opponent's army I was able to play a very strong objectives game and patch my losses with summons.

I wonder if this number of slickblades is overkill and whether I should perhaps find a way of fitting more Iron Golems or other StD units. Syll'Esske was decent and all but I wasn't impressed, and reducing the number of slickblades would also reduce the need to run Syll'Esske.

[whispersofblood]

5 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Got a game in today with the following list:

Godseekers

Keeper (general, speed chaser, enrapturing circlet, progeny of damnation)

Syll'esske (born of damnation)

2x5 Slickblade Seekers

1x10 Slickblade Seekers

3x11 Blissbarb Archers

1x8 Iron Golems

1x5 Plague Censers

Extra CP

 

My opponent took a classic Big Waaagh Ardfist list with 2x20 ardboyz, 3x10 ardboyz, an allied fungoid with cauldron, 2 warchanters, and a weirdnob shaman. This isn't an S tier list but it's definitely very competitive, and it prevented significant tactical challenges for me.

It seems like your opponent's deployment let them down. How do you think it would have gone if you reracked and went again?

For players who feel they will struggle with LRL, Glutos can almost single handedly dominate that match up.

Edited February 17, 2021 by whispersofblood

[Enoby]

5 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Got a game in today with the following list:

Godseekers

Keeper (general, speed chaser, enrapturing circlet, progeny of damnation)

Syll'esske (born of damnation)

2x5 Slickblade Seekers

1x10 Slickblade Seekers

3x11 Blissbarb Archers

1x8 Iron Golems

1x5 Plague Censers

Extra CP

 

My opponent took a classic Big Waaagh Ardfist list with 2x20 ardboyz, 3x10 ardboyz, an allied fungoid with cauldron, 2 warchanters, and a weirdnob shaman. This isn't an S tier list but it's definitely very competitive, and it prevented significant tactical challenges for me.

We played Scorched Earth, and I ended up with a close but convincing victory. He conceded going into round 5 with the VP totals 24 to 13 in my favor and with me in control of 5 objectives to his 1.

Batrep

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Overall I think the luck was a bit in my favor, but it wasn't hugely lopsided. I did benefit from the highest impact rolls: he failed to cast Da Great Green Hand of Gork on turn 1 and he didn't double turn me until turn 3 into 4. He also failed his only roll to bring back a unit of 10 'Ardboys with the Ardfist. That said, I also failed my rerolled charge with my Keeper on turn 1, failed all but 2 of my rolls to self damage with Plague Censers, failed 2/3 of locus rolls and had generally poor run rolls throughout while he got his 3d6 charge ability off 2 out of 3 times, resolved his second teleport, generally had excellent high charge rolls (usually many 8+ rolls before modifiers), and excellent run and waaagh point rolls. Combat was basically as expected on both sides.

His deployment severely stunted my DP generation. He basically deployed everything in a corner castle on my left with all of his heroes out of LOS except one unit holding down the other side of the board. I deployed Syll'Esske, 5 slickblades, all the blissbarbs, and the Iron Golems on my left with 5 slickblades on my right center and the 10 slickblades and keeper on my right center. On my turn 1 I pushed up aggressively on the right and then moved up just enough to shoot a little on my left but I could only barely reach and generated very little depravity. I took 5 VP. His turn 1 he pushed forward but wasn't able to do much either and took 3 VP. My turn 2 I smashed his right flank with my 10 slickblades and managed to do a little bit more shooting (but still only 2 of the 3 units, and they still only had two targets in range. I took 6 VP and burned one of his objectives (a big mistake, for some reason I was thinking you needed a leader on the objective to burn it.)

His turn 2 was pretty brutal, teleporting a big unit of Ardboys behind my lines and sandwiching my front with another unit of ardboyz. He killed all but a few of my archers and wiped a unit of 5 slickblades and my Plague Censers. He also teleported his Fungoid and grabbed my bottom right objective. I was able to get enough DP though through to get to 12.

My turn 3 I swept back down with my 10 seekers and managed to kill the Fungoid, pushed left with my Keeper and summoned 30 Daemonettes in his backline who charged and assassinated his general. Syll'Esske got stuck in. I took a bunch more VP and burned another objective, rolling a 3. I had one lone archer left alive, so the Blissbarbs did very little this game.

He double turned me 3 into 4. On his turn 3 he managed to kill Syll'Esske and all but 2 of the Daemonettes, and then on his turn 4 he finished the Iron Golems and got a charge off into my keeper but luckily the damage was limited as it was a mid to long charge and the charging unit was unbuffed. In my turn 4 I retreated my Keeper and was able to summon in another 30 Daemonettes to take back 2 objectives, and brought up 5 slickblades to screen the keeper from his largest remaining units of 'Ardboys. At this point he conceded.

 

Overall the army played essentially as I expected it to. If I had gone in headlong and tried for a straight up fight I would have lost decisively, but as it was even though I didn't really kill a lot of my opponent's army I was able to play a very strong objectives game and patch my losses with summons.

I wonder if this number of slickblades is overkill and whether I should perhaps find a way of fitting more Iron Golems or other StD units. Syll'Esske was decent and all but I wasn't impressed, and reducing the number of slickblades would also reduce the need to run Syll'Esske.

Thanks for the write up

Is there anything you think your list was lacking?

Also, I think Archaon could have a strong place in our lists - I forgot about his bravery aura. Also means our spells that trigger of bravery are better

Battlerapture, while underwhelming looking, is going to be useful for prebuffing units with battleshock immunity

[Magnus The Blue]

Anyone able to give me a list of all the optional/automatic battle lines we have in the new book?  All the leaks I have seen skirt around it.

[Enoby]

6 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Anyone able to give me a list of all the optional/automatic battle lines we have in the new book?  All the leaks I have seen skirt around it.

Daemonettes - auto battleline 

Hellstriders (both types) - Hedonite battleline

Blissbarb Archers - Hedonite battleline

Painbringers - Lord of Pain general battleline

Twin souls - Lord of Pain general battleline 

Seeker chariots - Godseekers battleline 

Chaos Warriors - auto battleline 

Marauders - auto battleline

Ungors - battleline in depraved drove

Gors - battleline in depraved drove

We have quite a lot tbh

Edited February 17, 2021 by Enoby

[Golub87]

2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

For players who feel they will struggle with LRL, Glutos can almost single handedly dominate that match up.

I am curious about this. How do you envision matchup vs LRL with Glutus and what makes him so good in it?

[whispersofblood]

34 minutes ago, Golub87 said:

I am curious about this. How do you envision matchup vs LRL with Glutus and what makes him so good in it?

LRL struggle to do spike dmg generally, outside of the Mountain Spirits, they need to get a lot of models into place to allocate attacks.

Glutos also has multilayered defences, -1 to hit, high armour, DPR, lots of wounds and 3 heal spells (which keeps him safe from chip damage).

Negates the power of the Cathallar by making Hedonite units immune to battleshock, and +1 Bravery from turn 1

Also he can pin large portions of the board as LRL don't have teleports of flying units.

 

[Enoby]

Btw, the LE battletome in the US is back in stock if anyone missed it they may have found some more

[Magnus The Blue]

Wondering is Glutos, Syll'Essk + Deprived Drove would make for a solid competitive list.   Three drops, Glutos is very hard to remove so gives a great summoning bases.  Lots of fast/ranged SMU units to ramp up summoning from turn one.  Syll mainly their for the command trait to stop everything running after a few causalities.   Should be comfortably summoning big stuff turn 2

Will play with some points.

[Carnith]

So for our units, the idea of summoning being baked in is baloney. It's an army mechanic attached to all units in the game, whether its hedonite or not (The case might've been made for this if a hedonite model took damage or delivered damaged this turn). So the only thing our mortals are really getting over slaves to darkness is our double taps, which 2 of our units don't even get access to. 

For my suggested points, this is where I'd go.

Archers 120-140, they are still paper thin and we do have access to other forms of shooting.

Slaangors 90-100

Myrmadesh 120 (these guys are just Chaos warriors +. a 60 point increase for their abilities is absurd. 

Symbaresh 150

Seeker archers are 160

Slickblades should be around 170.

Lord of Pain and Shard Speaker should go down to 120 (their counterparts are both 110 in Slaves, with the chaos lord giving double pile in and chaos lord giving reroll all saves, hits, and wounds, though the shardspeaker does have a defensive buff and an ability to hurt the enemy though short range).

Sigvald is not worth more than eltharion and should be around 220. 

Glutos seems fine with all of his buffs that he brings to the table. 

I don't think any warscroll is truly terrible, just that their points don't reflect it. 

[Popisdead]

18 hours ago, Overread said:

In the Age of Sigmar we have tales of demons persisting in the long term in the mortal realm.

This is a big difference and we started to see it a bit near the end of the Old World as GW gave the Demons their own book;...

So yes all demons are summoned, but in Age of Sigmar they can persist. 

So in Hordes of Chaos 6th ed, was there a means to play a solo DoC list?  I thought there was and at the time your general dictated the troops choice (back when  you could Mortal, Daemon, Beast and other types got pushed to Elite)?  

I know there was a PDF with the pre-model Be'Lakor list that ended up being fairly similar to the 7th ed book.  

Interesting to hear they have more permanence in the stories.  I didn't notice that but maybe just didn't clue in as they've more been additional characters milling around.  I guess it makes sense since the realms have mostly been under attack and sway of Chaos and now we are in a situation of fighting back for "humanity".   The historical lines of AoS got muddle and mishandled with the poor launch and campaign books being so costly at the time.

[swarmofseals]

6 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

It seems like your opponent's deployment let them down. How do you think it would have gone if you reracked and went again?

It's hard to tell. I think he might have deployed differently but I'm not sure that this would have gone better for him. He would have needed to spread out his heroes in addition to his units, which would have allowed me to generate a lot more DP more quickly as everything wouldn't have been buried in a corner and I could have spread my archers out a lot more. I think the VP would have been a lot closer this way, but I also think I would have had a lot more play in the combat side of things.
I think that they dynamic I noticed was that Slaanesh is going to have a much easier time against "rock" armies (Orruk Warclans, Fyreslayers and the like) on battleplans where the whole table is active and a harder time on battleplans where the objectives are concentrated in a condensed area. This isn't a new dynamic at all, but it's something people should keep in mind when analyzing results.

It's totally OK for a competitive build to have tough matchup + battleplan combinations!

4 hours ago, Enoby said:

Thanks for the write up

Is there anything you think your list was lacking?

Also, I think Archaon could have a strong place in our lists - I forgot about his bravery aura. Also means our spells that trigger of bravery are better

Battlerapture, while underwhelming looking, is going to be useful for prebuffing units with battleshock immunity

Archaon could definitely be good. I probably wouldn't go that way personally as if I wanted to play an Archaon list I'd probably play Tzeentch Archaon as that build is very strong and very consistent. Slaanesh Archaon could do some solid work though.

In this particular game I didn't really feel the need for anything specific except possibly more screens. I would definitely have liked to have more Iron Golems or other throwaway units to block charges and/or teleports.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

2 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

So in Hordes of Chaos 6th ed, was there a means to play a solo DoC list?  I thought there was and at the time your general dictated the troops choice (back when  you could Mortal, Daemon, Beast and other types got pushed to Elite)?  

I know there was a PDF with the pre-model Be'Lakor list that ended up being fairly similar to the 7th ed book.  

Interesting to hear they have more permanence in the stories.  I didn't notice that but maybe just didn't clue in as they've more been additional characters milling around.  I guess it makes sense since the realms have mostly been under attack and sway of Chaos and now we are in a situation of fighting back for "humanity".   The historical lines of AoS got muddle and mishandled with the poor launch and campaign books being so costly at the time.

If I remember correctly, you couldn't field daemon-only armies until the Storm of Chaos book. Your general choice DID reflect what counted as Core choices but I don't recall the specifics.

[Popisdead]

Just now, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

If I remember correctly, you couldn't field daemon-only armies until the Storm of Chaos book. Your general choice DID reflect what counted as Core choices but I don't recall the specifics.

Right, SoC... forgot about that,..  what a crazy fun book.

[swarmofseals]

10 minutes ago, Carnith said:

So for our units, the idea of summoning being baked in is baloney.

Slickblades should be around 170.

I half agree with you and half disagree. It's definitely not baloney. Points costs must factor in the value of the allegiance abilities or else whatever faction has the best battle traits will always be superior. That said, I agree with you that there is a problem whenever there are pseduo-allied units that can be taken from different battletomes where the pointing on those units is tuned to a different set of allegiance abilities. You see this in Order with Cities of Sigmar/Stormcast, and you see it in Chaos with Slaves To Darkness and Beasts of Chaos. The best answer would be for each faction to have its own set of points costs for every warscroll that it can take and just let StD and BoC units have the relevant keyword.

I agree with some of your points suggestions, but Slickblades at 170 would be way too low. They are already quite good at 200.

[Carnith]

5 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I half agree with you and half disagree. It's definitely not baloney. Points costs must factor in the value of the allegiance abilities or else whatever faction has the best battle traits will always be superior. That said, I agree with you that there is a problem whenever there are pseduo-allied units that can be taken from different battletomes where the pointing on those units is tuned to a different set of allegiance abilities. You see this in Order with Cities of Sigmar/Stormcast, and you see it in Chaos with Slaves To Darkness and Beasts of Chaos. The best answer would be for each faction to have its own set of points costs for every warscroll that it can take and just let StD and BoC units have the relevant keyword.

I agree with some of your points suggestions, but Slickblades at 170 would be way too low. They are already quite good at 200.

But the points are already a factor. When you take away everything that is unique to a hedonites model from our AA, it's just double hits and access to two CA for units that might not even be taken, and I agree then that should be the factor. Summoning can happen for all slaves to darkness models too. That's why I said an increase of points would be reasonable if it was tied purely to Hedonites in some way. When people talk about just disregarding some units in favor of cheap battleline elsewhere and still get access to depravity, then something is wrong. 

I'll concede that maybe slickblades suggestion was a little too low. 180-190 but they also run away due to low bravery with nothing really able to keep up with them besides the keeper to keep them from running.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Carnith

[swarmofseals]

@Carnith I agree with that, and what you propose could work as a solution. I personally like allowing people to use the Slaves/Beasts models in a wide range of factions. The problem comes when they are undercosted because they are being used in a faction with a much better set of allegiance abilities (like we see now). So you can either limit their access to the allegiance abilities (in which case you probably don't take them at all) or you give them their own profile for each faction (my preferred solution, albeit more labor intensive).

[Carnith]

@swarmofseals to be clear, I am not suggesting that only Hedonite models should be the only units allowed in our army, just that if that was the case, our points are more justified then. 150 point myrmadesh make more sense when only when our units deal damage or take damage for depravity and get double taps, and only hedonite heroes can summon, but this is simply not the case. So to remedy this, our units should likely only cost a bit more, but definitely not 40-50 points more than their slave equivalents for the ability to double hit anywhere. 

 

[Enoby]

I found this on Facebook - think it's quite funny

That said, hearing more battle reports, we seem to be doing well!

[Enoby]

On a more constructive note, the Shardspeaker's ability to give  +1 to wound is in the shooting phase, meaning you can move her first. This is much better than what I thought it was before