AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Enoby]

8 minutes ago, Drib said:

For now, you don't need endless spells to kill your own models, as you can break coherence to generate DP.

Huh, you're right! That said, you still need something to break coherency as you can't move out of it by choice

[TimeToWaste85]

So wait; I’ve read griping that Sigvald doesn’t have an effect on Morathi or Gotrek, but his wording absolutely negates their inability to suffer more than a certain number of wounds. Can someone explain to me why it doesn’t work?

 

In addition, my initial plan is to have:

sigvald (depending on answer)

keeper

epitome

3 units of 5 Chaos Warriors for Battleline

2 units of Slickblades

a mesmerizing mirror

Umbral Spellportal

240 points left (depending on SS cost) and add Syll’Eske and another ES or might trade it for the Seeker cavalcade and add more seekers. 
 

I think the mirror spell will hurt enemy movement from jump and possibly generate DP or outright murder heroes and a Spellportal combined with the Keeper’s base spell can do a lot of damage with going first. Combined with Seeker shock attack for a lot of DP generated from jump. Aggressive and sneaky, and the seekers don’t need to commit if the spells fail. 

[Enoby]

3 hours ago, Nasrod said:

Probably casual beer and pretzels type list. If anyone breaks out The Big 3 I will turn to OBR or DoK. Ideas for a more competitive list down the road would likely require even more pain on the wallet, hence looking to use the Start Collecting S2D as an 80 dollar stopgap for 550ish easy points. 

 

Edit: For additional reference I literally don't expect to ever summon more than 1 Keeper and 1 small unit of Seekers or on a lucky day 3 Fiends. So no huge optimization worries at this time. 

Sorry, just got the chance to answer

For hosts, from the two times I've seen this book played (from MWG and another channel - neither massively skilled at Slaanesh), Godseekers seems great on paper but it's very easy for the general to charge once and die. That said, I think it's still a good choice so long as you can keep your general well protected.

Iirc, I think artefacts and command traits are open to all Slaanesh units. In godseekers, the one that allows you to retreat and charge is great - a massive help for DP generation.

I'd recommend your tankiest hero to be your general (think your Karkadrak), and I think they do MW on a charge which is nice. 

[Graywater]

8 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

So wait; I’ve read griping that Sigvald doesn’t have an effect on Morathi or Gotrek, but his wording absolutely negates their inability to suffer more than a certain number of wounds. Can someone explain to me why it doesn’t work?

 

 

Sigvald's ability says wounds cannot be negated. That means that after-saves/DPR/ward saves (however you want to call them) cannot be made. This means that morathi's fanatical faith roll, or gotrek's shoulder plate of edessa rules are negated. In this respect you are correct. 

The shadow queen has the iron heart of khaine rule, which says that after she takes 3 wounds in a turn, the rest are ignored. This ignore part is key. You aren't negating the wounds (which would allow sigvald to push through the damage), but instead you are literally dropping any wounds after those first 3. So sigvald can 100% not do more than 3 wounds to morathi in a turn. Nothing can.

[TimeToWaste85]

10 minutes ago, Graywater said:

Sigvald's ability says wounds cannot be negated. That means that after-saves/DPR/ward saves (however you want to call them) cannot be made. This means that morathi's fanatical faith roll, or gotrek's shoulder plate of edessa rules are negated. In this respect you are correct. 

The shadow queen has the iron heart of khaine rule, which says that after she takes 3 wounds in a turn, the rest are ignored. This ignore part is key. You aren't negating the wounds (which would allow sigvald to push through the damage), but instead you are literally dropping any wounds after those first 3. So sigvald can 100% not do more than 3 wounds to morathi in a turn. Nothing can.

I’m pretty sure that’s one of things that will get FAQ’d. It’s pretty clear RAI that any wounds he deals that get through saves are taken, but RAW are muddy. I’m sure they’ll clear that up soon. He’ll absolutely be worth his 260pts once they do, right?

[umpac]

11 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

I’m pretty sure that’s one of things that will get FAQ’d. It’s pretty clear RAI that any wounds he deals that get through saves are taken, but RAW are muddy. I’m sure they’ll clear that up soon. He’ll absolutely be worth his 260pts once they do, right?

Drakkfoot is has the same wording as Sigwald and was FAQ'd to only be able to deal 3 wounds to morathi. He still won't be worth 260 points unless to play a ton of DoK and not much else, and even against DoK i think hes too squishy for 260.

Edited February 16, 2021 by umpac

[Graywater]

13 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

I’m pretty sure that’s one of things that will get FAQ’d. It’s pretty clear RAI that any wounds he deals that get through saves are taken, but RAW are muddy. I’m sure they’ll clear that up soon. He’ll absolutely be worth his 260pts once they do, right?

I disagree. For me it's clear that she will never take the extra wounds from sigvald. Her rule specifies that once she has suffered 3 wounds, not including those negated, the rest are ignored. GW has been pretty intentional in their word choices on warscrolls. 

That being said, sigvald's ability does work on every negate ability in the game. Hearthguard berzerkers, gotrek, pink horrors, DoK fanatical faith... it's not insignificant, and I wouldnt let his inability to 1 shot morathi be the deciding factor in your decision to run him in a tournament/all-comers list. 

Sigvald for me is too slow and too many points to be valuable. Hes too easy to ignore/kite around, and then it's not difficult to plink him away once your opponent decides its time to deal with him. I do think he has value in a lurid haze list though. He is a beatstick if he makes it to combat. The redeploy 9 inches away with +3 to charge suddenly makes him a scary prospect for your opponent by addressing his speed issue.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Graywater

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, Graywater said:

I disagree. For me it's clear that she will never take the extra wounds from sigvald. Her rule specifies that once she has suffered 3 wounds, not including those negated, the rest are ignored. GW has been pretty intentional in their word choices on warscrolls. 

While I do agree with your interpretation of it, I think it's worth an FAQ purely because there have been a few rules that everyone is sure they work one way, only for them to be changed to the other For example, old pre-battletome Depravity points talked just about "wounds dealt". For a month or so, we just played this as we do now until someone asked if mortal wounds counted as wounds. Most people here (including myself) thought they did in context, but it was FAQ'd that they didn't. 

While I don't think Sigvald can bypass Morathi, I think it's worth an FAQ to remove any questions

[rosa]

Sigvald is not worth 260 points and not valuable?😅✌️

Well, sometimes I have the feeling I am playing a totally different game than some...

Edited February 16, 2021 by rosa

[Enoby]

1 minute ago, rosa said:

Sigvald is not worth 260 points and valuable?😅✌️

Well, sometimes I have the feeling I am playing a totally different game than some...

Come on by to the AoS FB pages, he's simultaneously OP and not worth even 200pts - Schrodinger's Sigvald   

[Graywater]

Just now, Enoby said:

While I do agree with your interpretation of it, I think it's worth an FAQ purely because there have been a few rules that everyone is sure they work one way, only for them to be changed to the other For example, old pre-battletome Depravity points talked just about "wounds dealt". For a month or so, we just played this as we do now until someone asked if mortal wounds counted as wounds. Most people here (including myself) thought they did in context, but it was FAQ'd that they didn't. 

While I don't think Sigvald can bypass Morathi, I think it's worth an FAQ to remove any questions

This one I feel very confident with because like @umpac mentioned earlier, drakkfoot has the same wording and this was clarified in an FAQ for them to not work against Morathi. However, not everyone is as familiar with FAQs for factions they don't play. So im not saying an FAQ for this specific instance isn't unwelcome. Anything that leads to less squabbling over rules minutiae at the table is a plus in my book.

[Graywater]

3 minutes ago, rosa said:

Sigvald is not worth 260 points and not valuable?😅✌️

Well, sometimes I have the feeling I am playing a totally different game than some...

People look at model viability from different perspectives. I tend to look at things from a 5 game tournament viewpoint, and if I'd take him to one as a part of an army I'd be looking to win the event with. He may be worth it in a specific meta, less competitive environment, or in a build I had never even considered. I'm open to being wrong. In fact, I'd like to. Because his model is boss.

[Graywater]

Double post.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Graywater

[Third]

23 minutes ago, Enoby said:

For example, old pre-battletome Depravity points talked just about "wounds dealt". For a month or so, we just played this as we do now until someone asked if mortal wounds counted as wounds. Most people here (including myself) thought they did in context, but it was FAQ'd that they didn't. 

This is to my knowledge not correct. The wording was always "by an attack" or "a spell cast", so abilities and endless spells never worked with RAW.  😉

[whispersofblood]

25 minutes ago, Graywater said:

People look at model viability from different perspectives. I tend to look at things from a 5 game tournament viewpoint, and if I'd take him to one as a part of an army I'd be looking to win the event with. He may be worth it in a specific meta, less competitive environment, or in a build I had never even considered. I'm open to being wrong. In fact, I'd like to. Because his model is boss.

Sigvald is a sticky one. He checks a number of boxes that Eltharion does. They just I don't believe are very strategically valuable boxes. That being said if you take him he will kill stuff, which isn't something you can say about every warscroll in the game. In @Enoby's list Sigvald could easily replace 5 Painbringers or 5 twinsouls just less effeciently, when it comes to the objective game. But, off the top of my head he is more survivable than both, especially in Lurid Haze. Easily providing 6 DP a battleround. 

[Enoby]

12 minutes ago, Third said:

This is to my knowledge not correct. The wording was always "by an attack" or "a spell cast", so abilities and endless spells never worked with RAW.  😉

Ahhh, I meant MW's caused by spells - they didn't count either

 

Edit: Here we go - the confusion came from "inflicts a wound" and "wound is inflicted". Many people thought that meant if you got hit by arcane bolt for 1mw, you got 1dp, but until the battletome it was FAQ'd to just be wounds and not mortal wounds

Edited February 16, 2021 by Enoby

[Mordread]

On 2/12/2021 at 11:07 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Sigvald looks pretty fun! I like how they pulled off designing him in such a way that he's good against stuff that is normally hard to kill, but kind of bad against easy to kill chaff. I'd love to see more of this, and less units that are just good against .

I didn't Like the official Keepers Models and I wanted to give my Army the Aladin-style. So These are my Keepees

[TimeToWaste85]

You didn’t like the official keeper?! You may be the first person I’ve heard say that (well, “see text that”). 

[Third]

39 minutes ago, Enoby said:

🤔 What book is that? Looks nothing like mine.. 

I started playing some 6 months after Slaanesh got their last book. Is what you have posted from before that? 🙂  (you literally wrote pre battletome, my mistake) 🤣

I can see how it is not clear at all from what you posted, I have just never seen that page myself before.. It has not been a that much of a problem post battletome though, right? Because I think that it is pretty clear 👍

Edited February 16, 2021 by Third
I need to read better

[Enoby]

39 minutes ago, Third said:

🤔 What book is that? Looks nothing like mine.. 

I started playing some 6 months after Slaanesh got their last book. Is what you have posted from before that? 🙂  (you literally wrote pre battletome, my mistake) 🤣

I can see how it is not clear at all from what you posted, I have just never seen that page myself before.. It has not been a that much of a problem post battletome though, right? Because I think that it is pretty clear 👍

Yeah, the battletome cleared it all up and buffed our summoning mechanic quite considerably The original wording was from the 2018 General's Handbook - a time where summoning was just added to armies, and Slaanesh's depravity points were introduced. They were still good at the time, but as you can see, it was easy to think that mortal wounds counted as wounds at a quick glance, but it turned out they didn't. 

But from having a strong belief that mortal wounds must count as wounds (it just seemed common sense to me) and being proven wrong in the FAQ, I've decided it's best to check an FAQ on anything that causes confusion  

[Havkai]

I am currently more okay with new Slaanesh than not. New Depravity is okay. It is possible to farm 10-12 per battle round. New models surely are overcosted, but Glutos and foot archers worth their points. Other units are dissapointing. Siggy is fragile as f***, but with Lurid Haze he is actually really good.
Right now I have the following
Glutos
KoS
Sigvald
Shardspeeker
Enrapturess
3x11 Archers
Geminids
Sybarites.
Thinking of how to change Shardspeeker-Enrapturess. Suprisingle Harp-girl may generate a depravity or 2 with careful positioning and help to win the mage war. She is also good at recasting geminids with Glutos because of her dispelling rule. Shardseeker is pretty tempting because +1 to wound is sweet.  I have already tested against DoK, Gloomspite, BCR and CoS of different kind and going to face some top tier armies this weekend.

[Enoby]

9 minutes ago, Havkai said:

I have already tested against DoK, Gloomspite, BCR and CoS of different kind and going to face some top tier armies this weekend

Could you share a little bit of your experience please?

[Popisdead]

On 2/12/2021 at 3:12 PM, Overread said:

I don't know if this is even a 3.0 book. 

Interesting comment was it was most likely a 2020 summer release.  Covid has really slowed things down.  

On 2/12/2021 at 3:52 PM, Gistradagis said:

To have a bit of a break from the discussion, I just wanted to point out that our beautiful prince literally wears his armour like this. Truly a prince of excess. I now want to run him without the lower cape, to show his assets in all their glory while playing.

The original model had assless chaps.  I'm painting it right now.  But social media wasn't what it was 10 years ago

On 2/12/2021 at 3:59 PM, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Just to clarify, what was the complaint about Slaangor? Too much glass, not enough cannon?

Too little.  I"m okay with them but I love the models and want to paint them.  They'll do what they need to (generate a min 1 DP a turn so long as they survive which on the flank,. maybe,.. possibly,.. who knows).

On 2/12/2021 at 4:56 PM, Neverchosen said:

I think it is ironic that people get so up in arms about power-creep but when a new army is released with balanced and well mediated rules they get even more upset.

This is most of the doom sayers here.  The problem is say, Lumineth and Seraphon need to come down, not our books up.  I would rather a more squished set of Win Rate over a low floor, high ceiling.

On 2/12/2021 at 6:23 PM, Carnith said:

There is a lot right with this book... and some really bizarre steps. Slaangors? What happened there? My BoC friend is saying he'd rather play bulls than them.

That's a poor/ignorant comparison and ppl need to stop making it.  They are drastically different.  Slaangors are HoS marked Gors.  I play Warherd a fair bit and those units suffer from dice spiking like no tomorrow (even with 6 i've hit twice,..).  Slaangors won't.  Also they are a gor vs minotaur.  The units themselves serve different purposes.  Also the units in their respective armies will accomplish different things.  HoS generate DP, in Warherd Bullgors are the ultimate can opener (being up to -5 rend).   When I keep reading this it makes me think people aren't playing the objective or army strength game they are playing "do the stats on this warscroll obliterate my opponent).  Ungors and movement awareness win games (well,.. for BoC).

On 2/13/2021 at 2:21 AM, Yokai said:

The Goonhammer review is up, and they are quite happy with the tome.

It's okay.  Maybe in 6 months they'll change their tunes like they did with Orks.  WORST ARMY POSSIBLE..  <insert 6 months of winning tournaments> ORKS ARE THE BEST ARMY POSSIBLE.  O_o... always take math hammer with a grain of salt.

On 2/13/2021 at 6:19 AM, stratigo said:

40k codexes have always been more sweeping and expansive in their changes than AoS battletomes. 40k has more moving parts by a fair margin

40k could use some more clean up.  I was so happy to see it get AoS rules but it's still a cluster F on a good day.

On 2/13/2021 at 8:36 AM, Overread said:

Archers brings a whole new game to Slaanesh that really wasn't there before - that of ranged attack. 

They are a great addition, fill what Ungor Raiders did but before everyone rushes out to load up, there isn't really many army mechanics or synergies built for them.  HoS is still a combat army over a shooting army.

On 2/13/2021 at 6:16 PM, swarmofseals said:

 

When summoning you have the same dilemma -- a keeper or 30 Daemonettes. I think that most of the time you will want the Daemonettes and completely agree that they are more efficient than a keeper.As an aside, are there any reasonable alternative sculpts for Daemonettes? The current GW models are among my least favorite kits in the game,

It is an objective based game.  Email GW and ask for another wave of Build-to-order Juan Diaz daemonettes.  I bet GW made a killing the last time.  I know our local store sold A TON.

On 2/14/2021 at 7:31 AM, Overread said:

I think its important to wait and see. The book is not even released to the public yet. Most have not had time to digest the results and are giving knee-****** reactions to everything and forgetting half the information as they do so. 

People need to pause, settle, read and process the information and see how the army performs in the real world. Math theory is only one part of game design; you have to match it with practical's. 

Right now is TOO SOON to get onto any doom and gloom train. There's no proof of the stats being bad nor good and math theory generally only compares limited rosters against each other; its less suitable for comparing an army performance. You want games, actual tests, data, experience and time before you can start to organise any kind of coherent feedback. 

This can't be stated enough.  This thread is being hit really hard with negativity (as happens in all threads when a book is re-released) and mostly... the negative comments aren't backed with games but opinions.  

 

On 2/14/2021 at 8:04 AM, JackStreicher said:

An errata: the gilded blade should be a weapon EVERY slaangor wields. That is all, Unit fixed and it might even be worth 40€

When I first read the scroll i rolled up a bunch of hits and wounds and thought "these are great I love them" then Enoby kindly pointed out what my eyes failed on squinting to read.  Sadly that means it would take a new book as they rarely re-write warscrolls.

On 2/15/2021 at 4:28 AM, Overread said:

 

We'll see stories where Witch Aelves charge legions of Deamonettes and slice through them with ease; only to then get a story where one witch aelf is putted against a few and struggles to win at all.

The 6th ed DE book is a hilarious example how how the evil High Elves were traitorous murderers to the kind benevolent Dark Elves.  But Overread is correct.  Story telling dictates the swing of things more than rules.

On 2/15/2021 at 4:50 AM, Overread said:

Back in the Old World the only way you got demons was through summoning. 

I think to GW all daemons are still summoned in, they just aren't mechanically set to that in-game.

On 2/15/2021 at 5:41 AM, LeonBox said:

Does anyone know who's actually responsible for writing new rules, and whether or not there's some sort of overarching guidelines that they all need to adhere to? For instance, there must surely be some kind of rubric for determining how new models are to be pointed. 

It may come out soon.  Wade Price does a GW podcast and sometimes the guest is the author of a recent book.  

On 2/15/2021 at 11:35 AM, Maddpainting said:

Slaangors should have both melee profiles for each model at their point cost, change my mind.

No.  We all agree

20 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

From what I am gathering from your experience, as well as others who’ve been experimenting with the new tomb, 

tomb?  tome?  Have you put slaanesh in the grave already?

5 hours ago, Carnith said:

Man Hedonite facebook is a wild place to be

Degeneracy of the commons.  TAke any public forum and you'll have the worst comments made.  So sayeth the romans...

4 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

This is basically what I've figured out so far for a "competitive" HoS build. 

Only Hedonites generate bonus attacks.  I would argue the Beasts of Chaos battalion is weaker now.  Cause a build like that in BoC is not bad.  

[Havkai]

1 minute ago, Enoby said:

Could you share a little bit of your experience please?

Well, My opponent tried typical Hag Narr DoK. The only pain in the butt is Morathi, but she constantly generates DP because can't be killed. Sigvald is invaluable here as he ignores devotee and shreds through witch elves. Glutos with geminids creates an enourmous debuff bubble. And geminids now also generates dp when cast (but not between rounds. I think). Archers chip everything else, ran onto objectives and screened glutos. KoS went ahead to double activate Siggy. Golden Boy killed Bloodwrack medusa and 15 witch elves. By the end of my first turn I degraded Morathi, inflicted at least 1 wound to each enemy unit. Bloodwrack is dead, He spent the only CP on one pack of witch elves, other has run away. And all army is under gemininds. Because new Hag Nar trait makes you group up a lot around General. And I got 8 DP.
Gloomspite played squigs and it was not very informative.
CoS is fine because everyone plays PG and Siggy loves them. Also generates lots of DP. Last time I played against Hallowheart and it was a bit harder because more mortal wounds than regular Hammerhall. But again outflanking Siggy makes opponent to stretch a lot and still loose something valuable. Also charging a wall of PGuards with new locus is pure satisfaction. I had about 10 DP at my second turn, spent everything and generated 8 again. I haven't played against a shooting list so it is in a to-do list.
BCR is harder, it depends on how good opponent will through FNP. Chipping is not very productive because of Mawpot, he simply heals so I had to kill outright a unit and deny DP myself. Sigvald dies on retaliation. It is hard to charge with him and expect him to survive a counter charge with stonehorn. But with Glutos, geminids and Shardspeeker we have a good chance to debuff targets that we are not going to kill this turn. DP generation is a bit slower.
Also I make Siggy 1 of my generals so after outflank if he stays in opp's territory, I get an extra DP.
I feel Slaanesh is a strong tier 2, but will struggle against current meta. I will check later how much agony I will suffer against tier 1 armies)

[Overread]

2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I think to GW all daemons are still summoned in, they just aren't mechanically set to that in-game.

Very true, but in the Old World lore t the Demons were only rarely seen outside of accompanying major mortal armies and mages and didn't persist long outside of those situations. They were a short term terror unless you went north (or south) into the Chaos Wastes where the land itself was corrupted. Otherwise for the average person a demon was not something you'd ever expect to encounter unless you went to war against major chaos armies. 

In the Age of Sigmar we have tales of demons persisting in the long term in the mortal realm. Morathi's book has a whole siege by demons and many are full demons on chariots and the like. These are not just being summoned for war, these are creatures able to exist and persist in the Mortal Realms in the long term and without a powerful mage nearby. With the increased magic running rampant and the blowback from the Chaos Age its clear that demons are able to exist in the long term in the Realms and on their own. Once they breach through it seems only death or powerful magical elements will send them back to the Chaos Realm. 

 

This is a big difference and we started to see it a bit near the end of the Old World as GW gave the Demons their own book; and more so now where we've armies of Demons alongside their mortal followers and standing on their own. Indeed until this new book lands the Hedonite army was basically all demons with only limited mortal support. 

So yes all demons are summoned, but in Age of Sigmar they can persist.