AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Cosmicsheep]

@MathV i shared some lists a couple of pages back

 

https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/21522-aos-2-skaventide-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=528506

https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/21522-aos-2-skaventide-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=528010

https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/21522-aos-2-skaventide-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=527091

https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/21522-aos-2-skaventide-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=527596

 

But this is one i was working on today along similar thoughts to your own but largely based on the models i have

Lord Skreech Verminking    330  (or Warpseer +5 pts)
Plague Priest                        85
Warlock Engineer                 125
Clanrats-60                          390
Clanrats-60                          390
Stormvermin-10                   110
Warp Lightning Cannon       185
Hellpit Abomination             240
Warpfire Thrower                 70
Warpfire Thrower                 70 (or warp-grinder +5 pts)
                                             1995

I need to run a few games without my trusty screaming bell. I'm wondering if the ability to use Inspiring Presence from the Clawleader is enough to keep the rats in check.

[MathV]

I see it is dependent on the models you own of course. 

And have you considered 40 Clanrats + warp grinder + charging with 3 doomflayers? It might do more damage than the warpfire thrower

[Cosmicsheep]

I haven’t, but I don’t own any doom flayers. I’m not really a fan of their melee profile. Too unpredictable.

Also, I’d want some confirmation that when the unit of clanrats charges, the doom flayers count as having charged also (for the +1 to hit) 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Cosmicsheep

[DocKeule]

Also I am still kind of reluctant to invest in more weapon teams than I already have. I still expect some of them to be on the endangered species list.

[MathV]

31 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

Also I am still kind of reluctant to invest in more weapon teams than I already have. I still expect some of them to be on the endangered species list.

But they are so cool as a concept for a model, they totally represent Skaven

[umpac]

2 hours ago, MathV said:

I see it is dependent on the models you own of course. 

And have you considered 40 Clanrats + warp grinder + charging with 3 doomflayers? It might do more damage than the warpfire thrower

Sadly doom-flayers are atrocious. They deal 2.2 wounds vs 4+ save on avarage when over-charged and they blow themselves up half the time, which for 60 pts is well below what you'd expect. They had kind of a role before as you could take a few of them and just jam them in the opponents face and go "I'M A RAT!" to slow down key units, but giant rats are better speed bumps now that they cost 40pts.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

4 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Also, I’d want some confirmation that when the unit of clanrats charges, the doom flayers count as having charged also (for the +1 to hit) 

Unlikely. Unless we had the language similar to Khadron Overlords garrisoning in ships so that they count as the same model AND there was no limitation written into the rule, you could count it. 
 

And frankly, they're competing with the other two reliable teams, one that is already anti horde and the other is more flexible. Ill probably still play mine in super casual games but hopefully they add some spice to the flayers in the next book.

[DocKeule]

16 hours ago, MathV said:

But they are so cool as a concept for a model, they totally represent Skaven

I totally agree. But since all those models are still metal or resin models I am afraid some of them are going to be phased out when the next book hits.

Edited June 30, 2021 by DocKeule

[Cosmicsheep]

14 hours ago, MathV said:

But they are so cool as a concept for a model, they totally represent Skaven

Also agree. I still have these models that I bought in the late 80's (probably) 

[gronnelg]

These new rules for Skaven like weapon teams being able to hide in clanrat units - where can I find them? Do I now need an additional book in addition to the battletome?

[Cosmicsheep]

@gronnelg they were in the Broken Realms: Kragnos book. It's just 2 pages about the weapons teams and moulder mutations. IMHO not worth the £25 (or whatever GW charge)

I found some scans online (see below)

Spoiler

 

[MathV]

And taking inspiration from 40k how would a pure infantry list do?

Like 

Verminlord Warpseer 335 (to keep them all together)

Plague Priest 85

12x 20 ClanRats 1560 Points

Total 1980

You would than have 240 rats on the table.. 

 

Or 

Warpseer 335

Plague Priest 85

14x 10 Stormvermin 1540 Point

 

I think we wouldn't have any problem holding objectives all the game 

I think with the clanrats It would be a super strong list.

What do you think?

 

 

[Lazaris]

May I ask why everybody puts a Plague Priest in their list, lately?

Is it because of Disease-disease!?

[Cosmicsheep]

9 minutes ago, Lazaris said:

May I ask why everybody puts a Plague Priest in their list, lately?

Is it because of Disease-disease!?

Probably for the new universal prayers, Bless and Smite and the new Prayer Scripture (Guidance, Heal, Curse)

Priests have suddenly become very valuable heroes and the Plague Priest is still very cheap 🤫

Edited June 30, 2021 by Cosmicsheep

[shalvan]

21 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

I need to run a few games without my trusty screaming bell. I'm wondering if the ability to use Inspiring Presence from the Clawleader is enough to keep the rats in check.

Now clanrats can use command abilities on themselves as long as they have a clawleader.

[umpac]

6 hours ago, MathV said:

I think we wouldn't have any problem holding objectives all the game 

I think with the clanrats It would be a super strong list.

What do you think?

Conceptually interesting but with some major down sides (beside the daunting task of buying, assembling and painting 140-240 models).

You have essentially 0 killing power so while you can hold objectives well it will be more or less impossible to take objectives off your opponent. You are not outdropping anyone with those lists so there is a high risk of opponent just taking first turn and taking control of the board early since you will struggle to wrestle back objectives or positions once he is in place.

Victory Points are also scored differently now and objectives are less important. You're guaranteed to complete your grand strategy unless you get tabled with those lists if you pick hold the line (1 battleline unit needs to survive to complete it), but most Battle Tactics require you to kill something. Ive seen NH players take similar stuff to tournaments with a billion Chainrasps and they all had terrible showings (1-4s and 0-5s).

[MathV]

1 hour ago, umpac said:

Conceptually interesting but with some major down sides (beside the daunting task of buying, assembling and painting 140-240 models).

You have essentially 0 killing power so while you can hold objectives well it will be more or less impossible to take objectives off your opponent. You are not outdropping anyone with those lists so there is a high risk of opponent just taking first turn and taking control of the board early since you will struggle to wrestle back objectives or positions once he is in place.

Victory Points are also scored differently now and objectives are less important. You're guaranteed to complete your grand strategy unless you get tabled with those lists if you pick hold the line (1 battleline unit needs to survive to complete it), but most Battle Tactics require you to kill something. Ive seen NH players take similar stuff to tournaments with a billion Chainrasps and they all had terrible showings (1-4s and 0-5s).

What if we take 2 warp grinders taking out 1 unit of clarats. Than making 2x 60 clarets units We have 5 20xClanrats Unit remaining, this way we can make 1 one drop battalion and deep strike the 2 60 units blobs. It would solve the problem of retaking the objectives, going first this way. Still very low probability of killing something maybe. 

So this is the first idea.

Do you think storm vermin or clarats is the same?

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by MathV

[Verminlord]

9 hours ago, DocKeule said:

I totally agree. But since all those models are still metal or resin models I am afraid some of them are going to be phased out when the next book hits.

If anything I think it's a sign we are getting a new weapon team kit. Why would they write rules for weapon teams, which have always been a defining feature of skaven, and then immediately squat them?

For those that don't want metal warpfire throwers, search ebay for the isle of blood plastic warpfire throwers. There's still lots of them out there. I've also converted my 3 ratlings guns out of the IoB warpfire kit.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Verminlord

[umpac]

Just now, MathV said:

What if we take 2 warp grinders taking out 1 unit of clarats. Than making 2x 60 clarets units We have 5 20xClanrats Unit remaining, this way we can make 1 one drop battalion and deep strike the 2 60 units blobs. It would solve the problem of retaking the objectives, going first this way. Still very low probability of killing something maybe. 

That would be a vast improvement for sure, at least helping with mobility issues. While 60 Clanrats will hold out for a while, there are plenty of armies with enough damage to take it off the board in 1-2 turns. If "ammunition" was a battlefield role, clanrats would have it. Much like in the lore they are mostly there to die. You need something to take advantage of your opponents being tied up fighting your expendable throw-away rats, like weapon teams, jezzails, cannons, stormfiends, etc. 

 

23 minutes ago, MathV said:

The second is to do the same thing but with stormvermin. Do you think that something would change?

I think stormvermin can be decent but they need buffs to be efficient, like Death frenzy, Overwhelming mass, Gnaw on their bones, Skavenbrew etc. For that to work they need to be in big blobs of 30 and you can only have one such unit. Im skeptical to the efficiency of MSU Stormvermin, their damage is too lack luster, they die almost as fast as Clanrats and have half the wounds. If you play TTS or proxy it might be fun to try out though.

[Coyote]

@umpac  All Out Attack works really really well with Stormvermin.  

[Skreech Verminking]

33 minutes ago, Coyote said:

@umpac  All Out Attack works really really well with Stormvermin.  

Not really.

they already get an extra +1 to the hit role with their allegiance ability as long as they have 20 or more models.

since stacking isn‘t a option, your better of just giving them the gnash gnaw on their bones command, from a clawlord

[MathV]

2 hours ago, umpac said:

That would be a vast improvement for sure, at least helping with mobility issues. While 60 Clanrats will hold out for a while, there are plenty of armies with enough damage to take it off the board in 1-2 turns. If "ammunition" was a battlefield role, clanrats would have it. Much like in the lore they are mostly there to die. You need something to take advantage of your opponents being tied up fighting your expendable throw-away rats, like weapon teams, jezzails, cannons, 

Do you think two turns with rally and the new prayer for the save? Well in two turn we can send 40 more clanrats in each objective.

still not enought would you say? We could hold everything for like 4 turns 

while the verminlord might skitterleap and kill something 

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Not really.

they already get an extra +1 to the hit role with their allegiance ability as long as they have 20 or more models.

since stacking isn‘t a option, your better of just giving them the gnash gnaw on their bones command, from a clawlord

But they won’t anymore.  We’ll likely have 10-19 when fighting.  If they have 20 - great we’re hitting in 2s.

AoS 3 will make it unusual see units over 20.

[Cosmicsheep]

6 minutes ago, Coyote said:

great we’re hitting in 2s

You can't increase hit, wound or save by more than +1 It's in the core rules now. 

 

7 minutes ago, Coyote said:

AoS 3 will make it unusual see units over 20

I'll still be taking 30 stormvermin and 2 x 40 clanrats quite regularly 

[umpac]

57 minutes ago, MathV said:

Do you think two turns with rally and the new prayer for the save? Well in two turn we can send 40 more clanrats in each objective.

still not enought would you say? We could hold everything for like 4 turns 

while the verminlord might skitterleap and kill something 

If you warp grind them unto the battlefield you won't have the save prayer up. Its also wholly within 12" and cast on a 4+ so its pretty unreliable. Many armies has access to horde breaker spells which kills 20-30 guys alone, depending on the spell. Just looking at our own roster, which is far from the highest damaging roster in the game, a unit of Clawleader + Skavenbrew buffed Stormvermin put 56 wounds into 5+ save (44.44 if you use All out defense) which kills a unit of 60 Clanrats in 2 combat phases even with rally. Just looking at my recent Statshammer math I can see 30 great weapon Grave Guards with vamp lord buff does 50 dmg to clanrats with AOD, Witch Aelves with razor deal 68dmg. Low damage armies might struggle against that but there are plenty of stuff with enough damage to destroy 60 Clanrats in 2 combat phases.

 

8 minutes ago, Coyote said:

But they won’t anymore.  We’ll likely have 10-19 when fighting.  If they have 20 - great we’re hitting in 2s.

You're capped at +1 to hit so they are hitting on 3s at best.