AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Vesper]

 

Wondering how this would go.

[Gwendar]

47 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Wondering how this would go.

Just so people have a better visual, here's an average comparison between fully buffed 6 Fiends and 6 Fiends with no buffs whatsoever. This is only counting the shooting from 2 Windlaunchers and 2 Ratlings, no melee.. but since MMMWP + Vigordust extends to melee, I'm sure you can imagine how that might increase:


So yeah.. the difference is pretty nutty and I see absolutely 0 value in taking another set of 6 Fiends unless you want them for redundancy or to try to have a copy of your power in "2 places at once" so you can adapt... but I don't think that's viable in this regard. 9 Jezzails with no buffs are going to be doing more and cost less. Even a 20-30 unit of Acolytes and Monks will do more with no buffs and both cost much less. This is why it's so important to have more than 1 source of MMMWP in your list (which you do); once that's gone the Fiends turn rather pillow-fisted.

Also, without WLV or anything like that, I would say you may want to give the Bell a different spell; maybe Warpgale or Plague?

Edited January 21, 2020 by Gwendar

[Vesper]

37 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Just so people have a better visual, here's an average comparison between fully buffed 6 Fiends and 6 Fiends with no buffs whatsoever. This is only counting the shooting from 2 Windlaunchers and 2 Ratlings, no melee.. but since MMMWP + Vigordust extends to melee, I'm sure you can imagine how that might increase:


So yeah.. the difference is pretty nutty and I see absolutely 0 value in taking another set of 6 Fiends unless you want them for redundancy or to try to have a copy of your power in "2 places at once" so you can adapt... but I don't think that's viable in this regard. 9 Jezzails with no buffs are going to be doing more and cost less. Even a 20-30 unit of Acolytes and Monks will do more with no buffs and both cost much less. This is why it's so important to have more than 1 source of MMMWP in your list (which you do); once that's gone the Fiends turn rather pillow-fisted.

Also, without WLV or anything like that, I would say you may want to give the Bell a different spell; maybe Warpgale or Plague?

Holy ******...lmao. Point taken on the fields. Saves me time and money there, hah. As for no WLV, if I just go back to nine jezzails? I can keep it, but even then I would not be sending my warlocks to potentially get screwed over.

 

So using Plague or Gale makes more sense anyway.

[Gwendar]

@Vesper Yeah... It's a pretty stark difference.

And you don't need WLV, I was just saying without it Skitterleap has less value. You never have to send your Warlock to their death though; just make sure you have a Gnawhole near where you want to place the WLV, Skitterleap them beside it for the +1 to cast (or at least within 6") and then in movement phase you just use the Gnawhole to get back to another one which you should have in your deployment.

[Vesper]

17 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

@Vesper Yeah... It's a pretty stark difference.

And you don't need WLV, I was just saying without it Skitterleap has less value. You never have to send your Warlock to their death though; just make sure you have a Gnawhole near where you want to place the WLV, Skitterleap them beside it for the +1 to cast (or at least within 6") and then in movement phase you just use the Gnawhole to get back to another one which you should have in your deployment.

Well, I don't have anything else to spend that 100 points on, so might as well as bring it.

[Darkhan]

If you took Deranged Inventor as command trait instead, 2x6 fiends would make more sense. MMWP one unit, DI the other one. But yeah, I would test this out first;p as you see from the list, unbuffed fiends is pretty underwhelming.

[Gwendar]

Right, that would definitely help as you can Spark that unit as well. They would still miss the wound RR's and the +1 to hit.. I may calculate that out later too 😉

[Mizzazz]

I was hoping to get some advice on this list - is only having 1 engineer too much of a point of failure for the stormfiends? And does the warpseer create a redundancy for battleshock immunity i.e. is it worth taking him and the bell?

Open to suggestions

[michu]

I'm trying to build a 1250 pts list. What do you think?

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Warp Lightning Shield

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Standard Bell Ringers
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Standard Bell Ringers

Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
- 4x Standard Bearers
- 4x Plague Harbingers

War Machines
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1250 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 146
 

[Darkhan]

44 minutes ago, Mizzazz said:

I was hoping to get some advice on this list - is only having 1 engineer too much of a point of failure for the stormfiends? And does the warpseer create a redundancy for battleshock immunity i.e. is it worth taking him and the bell?

Open to suggestions

I learned the hard way, if I take a warpseer, ALWAYS buy 1 command point for T1 BS😂
I did not have a bell tho in my dreaded failure list.

[Drcrabs]

2 hours ago, Mizzazz said:

I was hoping to get some advice on this list - is only having 1 engineer too much of a point of failure for the stormfiends? And does the warpseer create a redundancy for battleshock immunity i.e. is it worth taking him and the bell?

Open to suggestions

You could always drop the Screaming Bell and get yourself a Grey Seer on foot with Skitterleap to get more range for the WLV and then spend the final 100 points on another engineer for another source of MMMWP.

 

@michu I actually really like this list for that point amount. Your focus is on lots of wounds for your opponent to chew threw while having a good amount of bodies and heroes for objectives and still able to hold your own in combat with Death Frenzy. I would over charge that WLC every time just for the giggles.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Drcrabs

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, Mizzazz said:

is only having 1 engineer too much of a point of failure for the stormfiends?

does the warpseer create a redundancy for battleshock immunity i.e. is it worth taking him and the bell?

Generally, yes. For 100 points it's good to have at least 2 as they're easily sniped out and as you probably saw from my previous post, Fiends are trash without that buff. You also see an AW + 2 Engineers a lot as well, but not necessary.

I find that taking both isn't worth it.. but that isn't to say either are bad. The Warpseer is resilient and Dreaded Warpgale either snipes heroes or slows down units. Combine that with the massive BS immunity and.. yeah, I think he's worth his points. The Bell has half the range, but doesn't require a CP.. and it's utility being random is obviously inconsistent; you may really want the -1 to hit or +1 to cast bubble, but instead you deal 1 MW to every unit or it just hurts itself.

With both choices, you usually want to start with a CP, but you don't have to. If you're playing against an army that can shoot\charge multiple units T1 then it will be better to run a Bell as you can at least protect 1 unit from BS if you don't start with a CP. All in all it sort of just depends on your composition. In your particular case, I think the Bell is great to have for Death Frenzy. If you were going to drop the Warpseer, I would replace it with another Engineer\AW and a Grey Seer on foot as @Drcrabs suggested. Then you have 80 points left for another 20 Clanrats, a CP, or more Endless Spells. Remember you can Skitterleap an Engineer\AW near a Gnawhole, cast WLV and then they can teleport back to safety with the Gnawhole during movement.

[Mizzazz]

 

11 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Generally, yes. For 100 points it's good to have at least 2 as they're easily sniped out and as you probably saw from my previous post, Fiends are trash without that buff. You also see an AW + 2 Engineers a lot as well, but not necessary.

I find that taking both isn't worth it.. but that isn't to say either are bad. The Warpseer is resilient and Dreaded Warpgale either snipes heroes or slows down units. Combine that with the massive BS immunity and.. yeah, I think he's worth his points. The Bell has half the range, but doesn't require a CP.. and it's utility being random is obviously inconsistent; you may really want the -1 to hit or +1 to cast bubble, but instead you deal 1 MW to every unit or it just hurts itself.

With both choices, you usually want to start with a CP, but you don't have to. If you're playing against an army that can shoot\charge multiple units T1 then it will be better to run a Bell as you can at least protect 1 unit from BS if you don't start with a CP. All in all it sort of just depends on your composition. In your particular case, I think the Bell is great to have for Death Frenzy. If you were going to drop the Warpseer, I would replace it with another Engineer\AW and a Grey Seer on foot as @Drcrabs suggested. Then you have 80 points left for another 20 Clanrats, a CP, or more Endless Spells. Remember you can Skitterleap an Engineer\AW near a Gnawhole, cast WLV and then they can teleport back to safety with the Gnawhole during movement.

That makes sense. I guess the issue is that if I were to drop the bell and take a Grey Seer, I'd have to choose between Skitterleap and Death Frenzy, and it seems like with the block of Plague Monks, Death Frenzy is a requirement. Is the WLV still worth its points? I'd be okay with dropping that if its usefulness is lessened by not having Skitterleap.

 I'm also a big fan of the Warpseer model so I'd like to keep him in the list if possible.. problem is I also like the bell model a lot too, but this list is for a tournament so I need to forego my usual models for a bit so I can be a little more competitive - so I'm open to any other suggestions/changes to the list.

How easy is it for an engineer to die if I just keep him wedged between stormfiends? They could be big enough to block LoS 😬

[Gwendar]

2 minutes ago, Mizzazz said:

 

That makes sense. I guess the issue is that if I were to drop the bell and take a Grey Seer, I'd have to choose between Skitterleap and Death Frenzy, and it seems like with the block of Plague Monks, Death Frenzy is a requirement. Is the WLV still worth its points? I'd be okay with dropping that if its usefulness is lessened by not having Skitterleap.

 I'm also a big fan of the Warpseer model so I'd like to keep him in the list if possible.. problem is I also like the bell model a lot too, but this list is for a tournament so I need to forego my usual models for a bit so I can be a little more competitive - so I'm open to any other suggestions/changes to the list.

How easy is it for an engineer to die if I just keep him wedged between stormfiends? They could be big enough to block LoS 😬

Skitterleap is not 100% needed; it just means you can't throw WLV into enemy deployment T1 and it would come into play T2\3 instead unless you just want to throw it forward T1 for area denial. It's worth noting that if your opponent goes first and moves very close to you, you could potentially get it into a good spot then as well. I still find it to be worth it and I bring it in every list, but not everyone agrees.

Just a heads up.. I pretty much only play competitively\tournaments, so that's where my advice comes from. That said, tons of people bring fun\casual lists to tournaments (and can do well) because they just have fun doing that and that's totally fine; no disrespect to them 😅. I think you can still be plenty competitive by bringing both and a lot of the time you may be given T1 (though, against Slaanesh, IJ, Ogors, etc perhaps not) so you can get a CP to bank... hell, more with the Warpseer's ability. I was only suggesting that the Grey Seer + Engineer option is probably the better one... but if your Engineer doesn't get sniped and the Warpseer snipes out a character with Warpgale then I think you're doing fine in that regard anyway 😉.

And.. no it's difficult to hide things in AoS behind other units. you have to remember that LoS is "true" LoS. If any part of my model can see any part of your Engineer through the gaps of the Fiends, then I can target it.

[Drcrabs]

After reading some recently disclosed lists that have been submitted to tournaments taking place relatively soon and noticed that there is a large percent of players bringing them, I kind of want to discuss tactics we can use against the dreaded Ossiarch Bonereapers.

So it seems by far, if not completely, the majority of Ossiarch Bonereapers players are taking Petrifax Legion with a blob of 40 mortek guard and a couple units of 20 mortek guard and this is usually paired with some combination of one or more of the harvesters and crawlers. A very resilient army indeed but what would it take for our rats to crack this turtle of an army?

I was reading a discussion on this topic in the beast of chaos thread and someone mentioned they are one of the better armies equipped to taking on the Bonereapers because of their easy access to Rend. This got me thinking that we have tons of rend from shooting, which seems better then engaging that army in combat that the beasts of chaos would have to do, that could shred the bonereapers. Another thing I noticed with these typical Bonereaper lists is that they are generally small in terms of drops and would seem prone to dealing with multiple threats from multiple positions on the table. I would think the usage of the gnawholes and clan rat 'speed humps' could force the bonereaper player to be potentially bogged down and delayed with clan rats while our shooting shreds them while also potentially taking objectives. The crawler is a real problem though because the ranged damage from that thing can be insane and the 36'' range gives it some serious reach.

I feel like the Skaven are well equipped with dealing this this fearsome foe but I could be wrong. But what do you guys think? Are we well equipped to deal with them? What are our priority targets to shoot, the mortek guard or the harvesters or crawlers or something else that I haven't mentioned? Any other threats or strategies we should prepare for this foe?

[Millford]

On 1/21/2020 at 4:47 PM, Gwendar said:

Remember you can Skitterleap an Engineer\AW near a Gnawhole, cast WLV and then they can teleport back to safety with the Gnawhole during movement.

I have a question: Skitterleap denies the model from movement in the following movementphase, but the gnawhole counts the port as movement. So is this legal? And if, is this somewhere written or explained? 

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, Millford said:

I have a question: Skitterleap denies the model from movement in the following movementphase, but the gnawhole counts the port as movement. So is this legal? And if, is this somewhere written or explained? 

Someone linked the relevant FAQ awhile back.. but a setup\teleport isn't a move, therefore you can do this. Both Skitterleap and the Gnawhole are both setups.

EDIT: Found it.. thanks @Darkhan for linking it awhile back. This isn't the most relevant passage, but there could be another. Regardless, both a Skitterleap and Gnawhole are just setups; neither is a move.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Gwendar

[Saodexan]

Also FAQ in the Skaventide battletome is pretty clear.

 

[Skreech Verminking]

8 hours ago, Drcrabs said:

rats to crack this turtle of an army?

Lots and lots of Warp-flamers.

now matter how strong these guys are, or how tough they are, against warp-flamers no horde could stay alive.

[fishwaffle2232]

So I've been playing around with my lists a lot lately trying to work out best way to use the stormfiends now that we can only take 6.

I still really love the idea of the soulscream bridge to deliver the fiends where they are needed but i feel like the points investment may not be AS worth it.

I've started playing with the idea of taking a couple of ratling guns alongside them. This gives me the option of putting them on the bridge with the fiends and an engineer and buffing them with warpstone and perhaps one with deranged inventor and/or reroll 1s. This would give me the 2×(3D6) attacks from the fiends and 2×(2D6x2) attacks from the ratling gun teams. 

Ive always found gun teams to be too squishy, as most opponent can easily snipe them off before they can get into range to shoot. 

On paper it seems like a pretty nasty combo and it also looks to be a great way to make better use of the 80 pts spent on taking the bridge.  

What do you guys think? 

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

So I've been playing around with my lists a lot lately trying to work out best way to use the stormfiends now that we can only take 6.

I still really love the idea of the soulscream bridge to deliver the fiends where they are needed but i feel like the points investment may not be AS worth it.

I've started playing with the idea of taking a couple of ratling guns alongside them. This gives me the option of putting them on the bridge with the fiends and an engineer and buffing them with warpstone and perhaps one with deranged inventor and/or reroll 1s. This would give me the 2×(3D6) attacks from the fiends and 2×(2D6x2) attacks from the ratling gun teams. 

Ive always found gun teams to be too squishy, as most opponent can easily snipe them off before they can get into range to shoot. 

On paper it seems like a pretty nasty combo and it also looks to be a great way to make better use of the 80 pts spent on taking the bridge.  

What do you guys think? 

I'll be getting 2-4 games in this weekend taking Fiends with Bridge again.. but even last weekend I'm not sure how I feel about it anymore. It worked with 9 as you had a higher wounds buffer against whatever hit them (unless you got a double going into T2 which is generally what you go for with these lists) but now.. yeah, they can get wiped off the board easier and have less firepower.

I think they could be a good complement, but are you suggesting using them with or without the Bridge? Cause yeah, I would love to send them across the Bridge with them as you suggested but wholly within 6" could be a hassle to fit within range with 6 Fiends and 2 Ratlings and an Engineer. I dunno.. could work. I can't really test as I'm not about to go out and convert up 2 Ratlings (hate the current model) but yeah, math-wise it checks out nicely. 

[Drcrabs]

9 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Lots and lots of Warp-flamers.

now matter how strong these guys are, or how tough they are, against warp-flamers no horde could stay alive.

That is true we can definitely burn them alive... back to dead-dead?!... yes-yes!

But I think the only reason I didn't mention them in my post was probably because I was thinking of how to take a list that adapts to a meta change like the way the Bonereapers are effecting the meta but also to still take into consideration about other armies and I feel as though the warp flamers only really work on other horde like armies, and of course specifically bonereapers, but they don't seem as effective against smaller multi wound elite armies.

But yea that is something we should consider about bringing to the table if the bonereaper population gets out of control and we accept that warp flamers less effective usage when dealing with other armies but consider it worth it.

[Skreech Verminking]

37 minutes ago, Drcrabs said:

That is true we can definitely burn them alive... back to dead-dead?!... yes-yes!

But I think the only reason I didn't mention them in my post was probably because I was thinking of how to take a list that adapts to a meta change like the way the Bonereapers are effecting the meta but also to still take into consideration about other armies and I feel as though the warp flamers only really work on other horde like armies, and of course specifically bonereapers, but they don't seem as effective against smaller multi wound elite armies.

But yea that is something we should consider about bringing to the table if the bonereaper population gets out of control and we accept that warp flamers less effective usage when dealing with other armies but consider it worth it.

I’ve  been using two of those weapon tea

s in the last few battles and even attended with them on some tournaments.

now they aren’t specifically great at killing elite few model counting units, but can in this situation, be your objective holders, which worked incredibly in some of those match ups.

knowing how well of a defensive these  bonereapers can be and how the competitive bonereaper players love their catapults, having a few  of these flamers isn’t a bad idea.

considering that the bonereaper player will usually have 40-60 foot soldiers, who’ll be his objective holders, he will mostly be outnumber by us skavenplayers, which is Why they usually try to focus those low bravery/armored infantry down with their catapults.

But the decision can be so much harder when your buddy or foe has something that can literally whip out a unit,

this is basically where your weapon teams  come in.

with their huge damage potential a bonereaper player will want to target him, but will have trouble deciding to go full out onto the weapon or resolve the attacks on different targets, which can get extremely risky, which will usually result to a full out shooting attack on those weapon teams.

an a turn of shooting that isn’t used on your own objective holder is a possible victory for you my friend😉😁

Edited January 23, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Drcrabs]

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

 

now they aren’t specifically great at killing elite few model counting units, but can in this situation, be your objective holders, which worked incredibly in some of those match ups.

knowing how well of a defensive these  bonereapers can be and how the competitive bonereaper players love their catapults, having a few  of these flamers isn’t a bad idea.

 

Two very good points actually. I especially dread that catapult as it can easily flatten whole units at a time and the 36'' range makes it able to target many units.

 

I think I may pick up a few warpfire throwers now just incase. I'm planning on running 3 ratling guns anyways and could swap two out for two warpfire throwers and I wouldn't have to change up my list at all luckily. I do love the options we can bring to the table as Skaven, it makes us pretty flexible.

Edit: And like you said more objective holders the better.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Drcrabs

[fishwaffle2232]

5 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I'll be getting 2-4 games in this weekend taking Fiends with Bridge again.. but even last weekend I'm not sure how I feel about it anymore. It worked with 9 as you had a higher wounds buffer against whatever hit them (unless you got a double going into T2 which is generally what you go for with these lists) but now.. yeah, they can get wiped off the board easier and have less firepower.

I think they could be a good complement, but are you suggesting using them with or without the Bridge? Cause yeah, I would love to send them across the Bridge with them as you suggested but wholly within 6" could be a hassle to fit within range with 6 Fiends and 2 Ratlings and an Engineer. I dunno.. could work. I can't really test as I'm not about to go out and convert up 2 Ratlings (hate the current model) but yeah, math-wise it checks out nicely. 

Yea sending weaponsnteams through on the bridge. 

I havent had enough playtime with the bridge yet so it is theory hammer for me unfortunately. Fitting it all within 6 is what i was concerned about But the ratling teams are quite small and I think getting 1 or 2 across shouldnt be too hard. 

Needs testing though because i have heard how tricky the bridge can be to play with. I just really like the mobility and options the bridge gives us though, so I'm really hoping to make it work.