AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, a74xhx said:

Squig Herds and Stabbas seem a sensible way to pad a low body Trogg list, so I guess that doesn't worry me too much.

I think my problem was that I was thinking I'm paying X points for a hero who has special abilities as a General. If I don't have him as a general then I'm wasting some of those points. Maybe a better way of thinking of it is that you cost your units without taking into account the Generals abilities; and you get to choose one set of Generals abilities which is accounted for separately.

Is Skragrott worth 220 for just his shooting, spell and melee? I thinks so. Is Trogboss worth 300 when you take way his battleline and command traits? ...Maybe not, and given I already have Squigs, then maybe a Loonboss on Mangler Squig, or something else, is a better way to spend 300.

I view them as his command trait. You can't pick like you can with a troggboss but they are similar power to loonskin.

 

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

Skragrott's moon-manipulation general command ability is a very good ability.  But, I think it also depends upon your list and general battle plan.  I would say that the moon is least important for Trogg-heavy lists.  The regen ability for Troggs is nice, but you can do without it.  You can get away without the moon for Squig lists as well since the Squig Lure spell somewhat offsets the moon ability.  Spiderfang and Moonclan Grot heavy lists are where the moon really becomes more important in my opinion.  Skragrott's ability to manipulate the moon for one turn can be a huge boon to those lists.  But he brings enough to the table for his relatively cheap cost that even without the moon it is hard not to consider him.

The Troggboss on the other hand is a relatively overpriced model without any extra abilities.  The standard Dankhold Troggoths are arguably overpriced and the only difference is the Troggboss has one extra attack.  But, the general traits and relics can make a very big difference in the performance of the Troggboss.  If you are taking a Troggboss then I think you at least need to give him a relic to justify his cost.  In a troll-heavy list with Skragrott I would probably make the Troggboss the general just to get access to a general trait since I think you can get away without needing the moon-manipulation ability.  A Troggboss with a relic and a general trait is a very different thing from a stock-standard Troggboss.

This is my view aswell. The standard dankhold is overpriced like the aleguzzler. The big power of the troggboss is actually his ca, it's so easy to generate them that you could pop a bubble every combat phase of needed.

On that note what do we have to spend cps properly, is there anything which could be allied to burn them?

[Skabnoze]

10 minutes ago, Skeekrit said:

I have now played 10 games and I haven't finished a single game on fewer than 5 command points! Need to find something to spend them on. (1 Fungoid only).

Your Loonboss is not using them up on "Stab Em Good"?   I figured that between that ability and battleshock immunity you would use up most of them.  That is interesting if you are still getting a lot of extras though.

[Skeekrit]

10 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Your Loonboss is not using them up on "Stab Em Good"?   I figured that between that ability and battleshock immunity you would use up most of them.  That is interesting if you are still getting a lot of extras though.

Some of this is my fault, but the Loonboss was rarely near enough the stabbas. This is part of what is making me thinking of dropping the Loonboss, Shootas, and 1 Madcap for Skragrott.... lots to consider before the next outing but really liking the book

[Skabnoze]

5 minutes ago, Malakree said:

This is my view aswell. The standard dankhold is overpriced like the aleguzzler. The big power of the troggboss is actually his ca, it's so easy to generate them that you could pop a bubble every combat phase of needed.

On that note what do we have to spend cps properly, is there anything which could be allied to burn them?

On a separate note, I think it would be interesting if they added the Reassuring Presence ability onto the Aleguzzler.  He would be a bit more interesting if he had some general abilities aside from just offensive attacks.  If he now lives in the Gloomspite army then it would be nice for him to have some sort of synergy with the rest of the force.  It also makes sense to me that Grots would be reassured by having big giant stompy allies nearby.

For CPs, it is worth mentioning that the Troggboss also has a nice command ability.  You will probably have that up every turn where you are liable to be in combat.  But in a mostly troll list that ability is probably the only command ability you will really have to use aside from generics so I can see a Troll force easily getting more CPs than it can spend - especially if you bring along a Fungoid as a wizard.

[Skabnoze]

Just now, Skeekrit said:

Some of this is my fault, but the Loonboss was rarely near enough the stabbas. This is part of what is making me thinking of dropping the Loonboss, Shootas, and 1 Madcap for Skragrott.... lots to consider before the next outing but really liking the book

It is interesting that he was never near the stabbas.  Didn't you give him the prodder relic?  That thing requires nearby grot units in order to work so I would assume he would be next to at least one unit.

[Skeekrit]

Some mistakes were made 😉😂

[Skabnoze]

10 hours ago, Skeekrit said:

Some mistakes were made 😉😂

It happens.  It's just a game so no harm.  That said, you should probably try out the Loonboss with the correct rules before dropping him from the list.  😜

[SzPtr]

I am thinking on this list, maybe for competitive as well. What are your thoughts? For artefacts I am thinking on dobbleganger cloak for Loonboss on mangler. What do you suggest as a second artefact? I bring 3 units of boingrot to max out the battalion with the 2nd mangler, so it will be "just"  8 drop instead of  11.

Grots would be tp-d on objectives/screening and later on mangler behind the lines to handle the protected heroes. Loonboss on foot will be with stabbas to buff them and to avoid battleshock. Squigs would take objectives as well while the boigrots and loonboss on mangler makes some noise and use the stabbas as anvil for sreening.

Leaders
Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (300)
- General
- Trait: Fight Another Day  
Loonboss (70)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: Squig Lure
Madcap Shaman (80)
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Hand of Gork

Battleline
6 x Squig Herd (70)
6 x Squig Herd (70)
40 x Stabbas (260)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields

Units
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)

Behemoths
Mangler Squigs (240)

Battalions
Squig Rider Stampede (140)

Endless Spells
Scuttletide (30)
Malevolent Moon (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 161
 

[Malakree]

8 minutes ago, SzPtr said:

I am thinking on this list, maybe for competitive as well. What are your thoughts? For artefacts I am thinking on dobbleganger cloak for Loonboss on mangler. What do you suggest as a second artefact? I bring 3 units of boingrot to max out the battalion with the 2nd mangler, so it will be "just"  8 drop instead of  11.

Grots would be tp-d on objectives/screening and later on mangler behind the lines to handle the protected heroes. Loonboss on foot will be with stabbas to buff them and to avoid battleshock. Squigs would take objectives as well while the boigrots and loonboss on mangler makes some noise and use the stabbas as anvil for sreening.

I really don't like the manglers for their price point, either version. That said Fight Another Day brings the Manglerboss up a ton in my eyes, combined with doppleganger like you've suggested it becomes a very credible threat, this is especially true given the ridiculous nature of the Ghoul King on Terrogheist at the moment as it gives you something which could potentially kill it.

For the normal mangler my instinct would be to drop it for more bodies, another 10 boingrots with 40 points to upgrade your Loonboss to a Loonboss on Giant Squig for the +3 move. You could instead increase your battleline to 60/12/12 for the wounds/bodies. I think like the Dankhold Trogg the Mangler is just overcosted.

 

[Skeekrit]

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

It happens.  It's just a game so no harm.  That said, you should probably try out the Loonboss with the correct rules before dropping him from the list.  😜

I did use the 6s = mortals in most of the games, but it was less than stellar. Lots of enemies with -1s to hit.

[SzPtr]

46 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I really don't like the manglers for their price point, either version. That said Fight Another Day brings the Manglerboss up a ton in my eyes, combined with doppleganger like you've suggested it becomes a very credible threat, this is especially true given the ridiculous nature of the Ghoul King on Terrogheist at the moment as it gives you something which could potentially kill it.

For the normal mangler my instinct would be to drop it for more bodies, another 10 boingrots with 40 points to upgrade your Loonboss to a Loonboss on Giant Squig for the +3 move. You could instead increase your battleline to 60/12/12 for the wounds/bodies. I think like the Dankhold Trogg the Mangler is just overcosted.

 

Without the mangler, I could not bring the battalion ( plus I love the modell 🙄). I am still thinking on if even the battalion worth it, but in this case I have 4 units with reroll move so they are more reliable, one more artefact(still did not figure out what to choose) and one more cp.

[Skeekrit]

I would certainly echo @Malakreeon the Loonboss on Giant Squig. The Boingrots feel like they need the 3" additional movement to compensate for the random element of 2D6" movement. Help to mitigate the inevitable low roll when you need it most.

[Malakree]

21 minutes ago, SzPtr said:

Without the mangler, I could not bring the battalion ( plus I love the modell 🙄). I am still thinking on if even the battalion worth it, but in this case I have 4 units with reroll move so they are more reliable, one more artefact(still did not figure out what to choose) and one more cp.

Mangler isn't required for the battalion, it's 0-1.

[Skabnoze]

What is wrong with the Mangler for it's price?  Ignoring the comparison to Boingrot Bounders I can't see anything out of sorts with the unit.

[Ragnar72]

Does anyone know the right base size for the loon boss with great cavesquig ? 40mm ?

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, Ragnar72 said:

Does anyone know the right base size for the loon boss with great cavesquig ? 40mm ?

They have not updated the official base sizes chart with the Gloomspite units.  However, the website says the model comes with a 40mm x 60mm base but I suspect that is the square base since it is the old Skarsnik model from 8th edition Fantasy.  The scenic rock that the model stands on will overhang a 60mm oval base so I would go with the next size up for oval bases (75mm x 42mm).

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Ragnar72 said:

Does anyone know the right base size for the loon boss with great cavesquig ? 40mm ?

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Core-Rules-and-Bases-Sizes-EN.pdf

EDIT: Got the wrong model 🙄

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

What is wrong with the Mangler for it's price?  Ignoring the comparison to Boingrot Bounders I can't see anything out of sorts with the unit.

So ignoring the Manglerboss (much as I don't like it's profile either) since it's command ability and ability to have an artefact give it a ton more utility.

• No utility.
• Essentially no MW output.
• 12 wounds with a 4+ save at 240 points is garbage.
• No secondary saves or rerolls.
• It's high damage attack (3+/3+/-1/d6) has low rend.
• It's high rend attack (3+/3+/-1/d3) has low damage.
• Massive Variability in every area with no real way to mitigate it.
• Has the Monster Keyword.

Comparison units (ignoring boingrots)

1. 210 - 18 Squig Herd
2. 220 - Skragrott (Here to make a point rather than anything else)
3. 270 - 15 Squig Hoppers
4. 280 - 24 Squig Herd
5. 300 - A Colossal Squig

So the Herd/Hoppers all come with a TON more wounds and models making them far more useful for winning games. It's also worth noting that all Cave Squig damage is really quite solid now at 2 attacks per model on 4+/3+/-1/1. 

Damage/Utility Comparisons

As a note, all stats I run are against a 4+ save with no rerolls. It gives the most reasonable expected damage output which takes into account rend/mortals without compressing the damage outputs to the point where they provide no meaningful data (2+ rerollable for example)

Spoiler

Mangler Squig vs 15 Cave Squigs (the same across all squig units) vs Colossal Squig in the middle bracket.

Showing that statistically you are getting ~3 extra damage from the manglers.

Spoiler

Mangler Squig vs Colossal Squig in the second bracket.

So a wounded Colossal Squig is ~2 damage less than a mangler.

So a top profile mangler squig is sacrificing all of the utility of the other options for an average of about 2 damage. Against the Colossal Squig that's it's -1 to hit in melee, way better explosion and the fact it drops 50 points of Squig Herd on the board when it dies. All if which makes it a significantly better zoning/blocking tool that is as, if not more, resilient.

Against the Squig Units you have an incredibly higher wound count, which makes the unit far more resilient, that zones and holds objectives thus progressing you towards winning the game. Even the Squig Hoppers, which look mediocre, provide a very credible MW threat to heroes, 14 of them moving over a hero should output about 7 mortal wounds without there being any questions about activation orders in the combat phase. Just keep them behind a line of Stabbas and with even a bad roll on your 3d6" (+3) you're still going to be able to inflict some hefty damage on whatever's engaged with the stabbas.

Skragrott

Most noticeable for me though is the fact it's slightly more expensive than Skragrott. The amount of power Skragrott puts on the table is far and beyond anything that a Mangler brings, being a wizard means he can hold objectives on places of power. Then you have the 2 spells at +1, with one of the best native spells in the game, which combined with his hand cannon makes him the best hero sniping tool in the entire army. Oh and even though he only has 6 wounds he has a 4++ save which puts him on the level with the manglers 12. Doesn't need to be in melee to do his stuff. Not to mention you have the option to make him your general for the CP generation and CA moon move.

Conclusion

Again, I personally don't like the Manglerboss but it definitely has a place and a use. With a great command ability, solid option for general traits and the ability to hold an artefact it's maybe slightly overcosted (like the troggboss) but I can't fault anyone who wants to run it.

In my opinion however the basic Mangler Squig just doesn't bring enough extra damage to justify it's place over the utility provided against other options at a similar price point. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Malakree

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

ignoring the Manglerboss (much as I don't like it's profile either) since it's command ability and ability to have an artefact give it a ton more utility.

• No utility.
• Essentially no MW output.
• 12 wounds with a 4+ save at 240 points is garbage.
• No secondary saves or rerolls.
• It's high damage attack (3+/3+/-1/d6) has low rend.
• It's high rend attack (3+/3+/-1/d3) has low damage.
• Massive Variability in every area with no real way to mitigate it.
• Has the Monster Keyword.

 

I think you’d be surprised how in line12 wounds 4 up save really is with other monsters, for instance skaven get the hell pit (220 points 12 wounds 5 up save) and every skaven greater daemon is similar but of course you get magic and command, next I’ll offer up the zombie dragon and terrorgheist (300 points 14 wounds 4 up save) I mean nagash and Archaon are abysmal if their survivability was taken into account.  Hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s is fine and low rend can be sucky but against a lot of opponents I don’t think it’s that’s bad,  even damage wise it’s fine compared to other monsters, but let’s look a tad at something it has that almost no other monster has... it ha so an amazing damage table! This thing gets worse, then gets better again as it’s wounded which is amazing! The colossal squig is actually less damaging at several points of damage and trust me when you tell an opponent that your monster gets better when damaged at some point they’d might be reluctant to attack it. Colossal has mortal wounds, but even with its mortal wounds it’s strictly worse then the mangler at certain points of the damage table. It also has very similar attacks and just one ups the mangler a full wounds and at some Damage taken. Also if 16 wounds 5 up save for more points isn’t garbage then I’m confused (although minus one to hit does help it doesn’t help in some scenarios) I think the best monster for gloomspite is troll hag or bust haha, but the mangler when compared to other monsters isn’t that bad... give him a chance alright? 😭😭😭

[ItzMercy]

9 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

I think you’d be surprised how in line12 wounds 4 up save really is with other monsters, for instance skaven get the hell pit (220 points 12 wounds 5 up save) and every skaven greater daemon is similar but of course you get magic and command, next I’ll offer up the zombie dragon and terrorgheist (300 points 14 wounds 4 up save) I mean nagash and Archaon are abysmal if their survivability was taken into account.  Hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s is fine and low rend can be sucky but against a lot of opponents I don’t think it’s that’s bad,  even damage wise it’s fine compared to other monsters, but let’s look a tad at something it has that almost no other monster has... it ha so an amazing damage table! This thing gets worse, then gets better again as it’s wounded which is amazing! The colossal squig is actually less damaging at several points of damage and trust me when you tell an opponent that your monster gets better when damaged at some point they’d might be reluctant to attack it. Colossal has mortal wounds, but even with its mortal wounds it’s strictly worse then the mangler at certain points of the damage table. It also has very similar attacks and just one ups the mangler a full wounds and at some Damage taken. Also if 16 wounds 5 up save for more points isn’t garbage then I’m confused (although minus one to hit does help it doesn’t help in some scenarios) I think the best monster for gloomspite is troll hag or bust haha, but the mangler when compared to other monsters isn’t that bad... give him a chance alright? 😭😭😭

I much prefer the mangler over colossal

[Skabnoze]

8 minutes ago, ItzMercy said:

I much prefer the mangler over colossal

I like them both.

Personally I consider the normal Mangler (and even a non-general Loonboss Mangler) to be a semi-suicidal glass cannon.  I don't expect it to live.  It is similar to the Colossal in that fashion, but with a different damage table that I think incentivizes people to wipe it off the table if they choose to attack it.

I like both the Colossal and the Mangler, but I am a bit disappointed that they have such similar roles and are fairly close in cost.  If they are going to be so similar then I would at some point like to see the Colossal go up in points a bit and become deadlier.  Similar to how the standard Gargant and the Bonegrinder are designed conceptually.  For the Gargants one is a much much bigger version of the other.  For me the Mangler and the Colossal are just a bit too similar.  Another option would be to differentiate them a bit more for abilities.   But all that said, I still like both of them.

One nice thing about the Mangler that does not apply to the Colossal is that you can hold him back rather than alpha-striking with him.  If the enemy tries to whittle him down with magic or ranged attacks his damage chart can keep him viable beyond other monsters.  The Colossal just purely degrades so you are incentivized to alpha strike with him before he takes any serious damage.  Just about every monster in the game with a damage profile that does not have some sort of healing mechanism functions like this, but the Mangler is a very interesting exception.  While the Mangler is also great to alpha-strike people I appreciate that there is room for alternate roles with him.   But in the end he is not a tank and should not be viewed as such.  He is a bomb that you hurl into the enemy at some point.

Another thing to consider is that the Gloomspite army does have a variety of debuffs to the enemy that are potentially available.  I would not expect to always have them, but they are potentially there depending on your army build and tactics (such as the mommet or shroommancer).

[PlasticCraic]

 

12 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

One nice thing about the Mangler that does not apply to the Colossal is that you can hold him back rather than alpha-striking with him. 

Not least because he can fly, so he can get over your screens to counter punch 

I also like both, and also agree that it's a shame their roles are so similar...and also agree that the Mangler is a little more flexible on the table.  I think Fly is one of the underrated reasons for that.

Edited March 6, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

6 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

 

Not least because he can fly, so he can get over your screens to counter punch 

I also like both, and also agree that it's a shame their roles are so similar...and also agree that the Mangler is a little more flexible on the table.  I think Fly is one of the underrated reasons for that.

I never even noticed the fly rule!!! That elevates manglers past colossally for me then

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

19 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

the Bonegrinder 

I LOVE THAT MODEL! He’s so tall and lanky he’s like an imperial knight but fantasy lol! Does anyone have any experience using him? Doesn’t he suck like his mini counterpart?

[Malakree]

44 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

I think you’d be surprised how in line12 wounds 4 up save really is with other monsters, for instance skaven get the hell pit (220 points 12 wounds 5 up save) and every skaven greater daemon is similar but of course you get magic and command, next I’ll offer up the zombie dragon and terrorgheist (300 points 14 wounds 4 up save) I mean nagash and Archaon are abysmal if their survivability was taken into account

Every single one of these has some other form of save or survivability on top. 

• Heal d3 in your hero phase, 1/3 chance to heal D6 wounds instead of dying for the first time, ignore spells on 4+
• 5++ save (with RR saves on the warpseer, ie. the good one)
• Heal d3 in your hero phase with 6++
• Soul Stealer to heal wounds, 4++ vs mortals
• Eye of Sheerian, ignore spells on 4+, 5++ vs mortals, heal on killing heroes.

Point being that EVERYTHING you've listed has more than just a flat save. Just 12 wounds with a 4+ save is essentially paper, hell a Maw-Krusha at 3+ with 14 wounds is paper vs modern books.

55 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

This thing gets worse, then gets better again as it’s wounded which is amazing!

The vast majority of the time it's just going to get blown up. It's also why when I considered the damage output I took it at it's maximum profile despite that only being 0-2 wounds at either end as opposed to the Colossal which I dropped down a profile.

1 hour ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

The colossal squig is actually less damaging at several points of damage and trust me when you tell an opponent that your monster gets better when damaged at some point they’d might be reluctant to attack it. Colossal has mortal wounds, but even with its mortal wounds it’s strictly worse then the mangler at certain points of the damage table. It also has very similar attacks and just one ups the mangler a full wounds and at some Damage taken.

Mortals on an unmodified 6 are massive. It means that -hit hurt but not overwhelmingly, getting tabled hurts but not massively. You also have your -2 rend on the big attack which is important.

Consider what you the monster to kill.

• Stuff with -hit, the Colossal Unmod6 Mortals mean that when you are rolling almost no hits vs things like nurgle (or grots) at least they are going straight to mortals,
• Stuff with high armour/rerolls. Again the mortals are huge here, more importantly your key damage has the rend on it. The mangler is going to bounce off anything remotely tanky.

42 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

Also if 16 wounds 5 up save for more points isn’t garbage then I’m confused (although minus one to hit does help it doesn’t help in some scenarios)

So the reason that 16 wounds, 5+ save, -1 hit vs melee is better than 12 wounds, 4+ save comes down a bit to meta and the current state of the game. At the moment there are 3 threats you have to consider against your monsters. Mortal Wounds, Melee and Celestial Ballistas.

1. Against mortal wounds 16 wounds > 12 wounds. Save is Irrelevant.
2. Against Melee -1 hit is better than +1 save. With no rerolls they work out approximately equivalent. Against rerolls -hit is strictly better.
3. Against a Celestial Ballista +1 save is basically meaningless, they are going to blow you up anyway. 

From a purely mathematical perspective with no rend and 1 damage attacks, it takes 24 attacks to kill a 12 wound 4+ save model, it also takes 24 attacks to kill a 16 wound 5+ save model. As you increase the rend the value of the wounds goes up and the save goes down. (18 , 19.2) - (14.4 , 16) - (12 , 16)

1 hour ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

I think the best monster for gloomspite is troll hag or bust haha, but the mangler when compared to other monsters isn’t that bad... give him a chance alright? 😭😭😭

I'm kinda ignoring the hero monsters because they all have utility outside of just being a model (Places of Power). I agree that the Colossal isn't great, however if we are comparing like to like the colossal actually does it's job as a nut cracker unlike the mangler.

27 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

He is a bomb that you hurl into the enemy at some point.

Yeah that's where my issue comes from, it's that he's not a very good bomb in the majority of common cases.

16 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Not least because he can fly, so he can get over your screens to counter punch 

I also like both, and also agree that it's a shame their roles are so similar...and also agree that the Mangler is a little more flexible on the table.  I think Fly is one of the underrated reasons for that.

I agree fly is amazing. Problem is that if we are looking at that role (as opposed to just doing flat up comparisons) you take Boingrots or Hoppers over the Mangler everyday. 

9 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

I LOVE THAT MODEL! He’s so tall and lanky he’s like an imperial knight but fantasy lol! Does anyone have any experience using him? Doesn’t he suck like his mini counterpart?

The Bonegrinder is good unlike the Aleguzzler. Not only does he not have the stupid fall down on a double when charging he can activate and pile in from 6" away. Combine that with a range of 3" and his guaranteed threat range at full wounds is 24" (12" move, 6" run, 6" pile in) and he can easily attack over screens at things hiding behind them, yours or your opponents.

More over he is a massive threat to things like the stupid Gristlegore Terroghiest because you don't move into a 3" attack range until you activate him meaning he should always go first in combat. It also means you can do things like retreat and still fight that turn.

A ranged attack, an instikill mechanic and a real mw output method makes him a terrifying addition to a gloomspite army. Imagine him stood 4" behind a line of 60 stabbas, how do you deal with that?

[Skabnoze]

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

The Bonegrinder is good unlike the Aleguzzler. Not only does he not have the stupid fall down on a double when charging he can activate and pile in from 6" away. Combine that with a range of 3" and his guaranteed threat range at full wounds is 24" (12" move, 6" run, 6" pile in) and he can easily attack over screens at things hiding behind them, yours or your opponents.

To play Devil's Advocate, the Aleguzzler has 3" reach on his club also.  He does not have the 6" pile in but he can still attack over screens.  Also, if we are going to ding the Mangler and the Aleguzzler for only having -1 rend on their main attack then that criticism should be leveled against the Bonegrinder as well.  In fact, the Bonegrinder's main attack profile is identical to the Aleguzzler with the exception of being 2 damage instead of 1.  The Bonegrinder also decays quickly on his club attack via number of attacks.

Now I like all 3 of these units, and the Bonegrinder has other stuff on his warscroll such as his boulder toss and jump-up-and-down ability, but I figured these things were worth pointing out.

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Skabnoze