Ravinsild Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 For Grand Host of Nagash I’m always tempted to bring Morghasts, because they get a free +1 to attack and it almost feels wasteful not to use this battle trait, but are Morghasts always worth it? They feel like Fulminators, but somehow I feel like they may be worse. They also can’t be healed by anything but Vile Transference and the like, Deathless Minions and Invigorating Aura so and forth don’t work and they can’t be summoned once dead. Are they a good hammer unit? What’s their purpose and are they worth it? It seems they’ll always have a low number of attacks, so is a low number of attacks worth risking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Morghast are great Herokillers , i have allways 2-4 Morghast in my LoN Army, and Morghast with the polearm can great support your Skeleton Warriors from the second Line . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted October 7, 2018 Author Share Posted October 7, 2018 So basically they’re definitely worth bringing and the GHoN battle trait just makes them better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 Of course not, everybody who fields them is a poor little noob playing the fluff game and deserves a crushing defeat from a mean spirited, downtalking arrogant fob... they are a little overpriced (ig+rl) but for fast elite, their 3d6 charge, high rend and high damage definitely gives them a bunch of options for your lists. Also don’t forget distraction carnifex qualities. A whole nurgle army brawled with those poor chaps (spell debuffs in as yet unknown heartbreaking quantities) for three rounds, then their suffering was over and I won by points ?? beware of carnosaurs...ymmv, terms and conditions apply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 For cool factor: absolutely. They are some of the most amazing models GW has ever made. For competitive efficiency: No. You are paying a lot of pts for a unit that doesn't have a very high damage output and isn't very tanky. The same pts in reapers is better in almost all situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, themortalgod said: For cool factor: absolutely. They are some of the most amazing models GW has ever made. For competitive efficiency: No. You are paying a lot of pts for a unit that doesn't have a very high damage output and isn't very tanky. The same pts in reapers is better in almost all situations. Well why are Fulminators so good but Morghasts are so bad? Fulminators even cost more than Morghasts by 20 points but have roughly the same profiles iirc. What’s the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 25 minutes ago, Ravinsild said: What’s the difference? 3+ save rerolling 1s, 2+ against shooting?! exploding damage for the mounts on a to wound of 6... 1->d6 mortal wound spam as shooting?! deepstrike possible... For 110 per model??? They make morghast look like a cheap ripp off, armed for a pillow fight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 19 minutes ago, Honk said: 3+ save rerolling 1s, 2+ against shooting?! exploding damage for the mounts on a to wound of 6... 1->d6 mortal wound spam as shooting?! deepstrike possible... For 110 per model??? They make morghast look like a cheap ripp off, armed for a pillow fight Well... how come Morghasts aren’t that good ;-; Didn’t Nagash make them himself to be his most Killy unit ever? I feel ripped off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Ravinsild said: Didn’t Nagash make them himself to be his most Killy unit Nope, got that totally wrong. He designed them to be his most imposante and impressive units. Most killy goes to the rabid horde of hunger, played by ?josh? sporting a 30 strong wolves unit with 2x10 more puppies... fast, totally bonkers, huge board control and to sum it up, in the appropriate style, I have to switch to french chef style (for the extra opponent humiliation): Pour écraser tes ennemis, les voir chassés devant toi et entendre les lamentations de leurs femmes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 11 hours ago, themortalgod said: For cool factor: absolutely. They are some of the most amazing models GW has ever made. For competitive efficiency: No. You are paying a lot of pts for a unit that doesn't have a very high damage output and isn't very tanky. The same pts in reapers is better in almost all situations. Not very high damage output? In our army there isn't anything non character/behemoth that has better than Morghasts -2 rend and 3 damage. Granted they could do with coming down in points and are somewhat flimsy against anything with rend. Against my usual sylvaneth opponent that ignore rend of -1 (due to some battalion rule) having -2 is a godsend. I would argue they are always worth taking, battleline in grand host, +1 attack and if you keep a vampire near to pop blood feast on them each of them will have 5 attacks at -2 rend, 3 damage. Although I will admit I don't know about tournament level as that doesn't really interest me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 14 minutes ago, El Syf said: Not very high damage output? In our army there isn't anything non character/behemoth that has better than Morghasts -2 rend and 3 damage. Granted they could do with coming down in points and are somewhat flimsy against anything with rend. Against my usual sylvaneth opponent that ignore rend of -1 (due to some battalion rule) having -2 is a godsend. I would argue they are always worth taking, battleline in grand host, +1 attack and if you keep a vampire near to pop blood feast on them each of them will have 5 attacks at -2 rend, 3 damage. Although I will admit I don't know about tournament level as that doesn't really interest me. 6x 3+/3+ attacks at -2 rend and damage 3 does, on average 6.6 damage to a unit with a 4+ save. That unit cost you 220pts. Not very impressive imo. On top of that at 20pts per wound they are pretty squishy compared to other battlelines. I will give you that against stuff that ignores -1 rend, they are appealing. But in most cases, they are inefficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iradekhorne Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 I think, in a LoN army, they have a spot. The harbringers version can charge with 3 dices, making 8 atacks at 3+ and 3+, rend -2 dmg 3. If you have already 30 grimhast a d 40 skeletons, and you put another horde, you could have problems with movement and space. In that case, this guys only have 2 bases, fly and charge with 3 dices. Also, you don't need buff them, the you can better buff your hordes. And finally, if you loose a grimhast or skeleto unit, you can return to the game the horde for 1 command point. Theni think it on that way: If i have 2 units of 30+ miniatures, but i can summon it when they die, probably i suicide one of them to stop one flank, and i concentrate the power on crush the other side of the board, then when i do, i just resumon the unit. For that prupose the little ans mobile units like morghast are worth. I think this, the harbingers version can be competitive on a LoN army. And also they are good on a Legion of Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 9 hours ago, Ravinsild said: Well why are Fulminators so good but Morghasts are so bad? Fulminators even cost more than Morghasts by 20 points but have roughly the same profiles iirc. What’s the difference? They aren't roughly the same at all. They are far tankier. Near impervious to ranged attacks that lack rend and also far more durable in close combat. (it takes about 23 no rend wounds to kill a fulminator. Compare to 12 no rend melee wounds to kill a Morghast. Meanwhile, it still take about 12 no rend ranged wounds to kill a Morghast while it takes 180 to kill a fulminator. That said Morghasts are stronger vs MWs.) They have a ranged attack and also hit harder than Moghasts if they charge. For 20pts more than a Morghast you get a model that is faster moving, tankier, has a ranged attack, and more effective on the charge. The only area that Morghasts are better is in a prolonged combat, which is unlikely since they are such a high pts per wound cost. (And Morghasts aren't even THAT much better in a prolonged combat once you figure in Storm Blast and Intolerable Damage) Fulminators can fill the role of Hammer or Anvil while also being able to harass and snipe heroes. They also have deep strike. Meanwhile Morghasts are a low output Hammer only that doesn't even outpace the army's battleline in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cursed Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 44 minutes ago, El Syf said: Not very high damage output? In our army there isn't anything non character/behemoth that has better than Morghasts -2 rend and 3 damage. Granted they could do with coming down in points and are somewhat flimsy against anything with rend. Against my usual sylvaneth opponent that ignore rend of -1 (due to some battalion rule) having -2 is a godsend. I would argue they are always worth taking, battleline in grand host, +1 attack and if you keep a vampire near to pop blood feast on them each of them will have 5 attacks at -2 rend, 3 damage. Although I will admit I don't know about tournament level as that doesn't really interest me. the biggest problem of Morghast isn't their dmg. It's their fragility! they are a glass canon unit and their best use is to kill supporting character. But against a good opponent these support pieces will be well screened. If we had a way to resummon them or a spell to resurrect slain model they would be way better. A few exemples with the buff you mentionned (blood feast and Grand host) 1- you will throw them in another scary unit: against a unit with 2+ save ignoring rend 1 they will do around 6 wounds. So not enough to put a big dmg dealers out of actions. 2- you cripple a big blob unit with them (they do around 11 wounds on skeletons and around 5 wounds to wytch elves with buff) In these two scenarios after the Morghast attacks, the opponent just turns around and obliterate them. Sadly they don't have enough wounds or enough attack power to justify their price now in the competitive scenes! If I take the skeleton unit in the past example, after the morghast attacked, I attack back with around 29 skeletons and they will kill around 1.5 Morghast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Well until we can have units of vhordrai’s I don’t know what your going to rely on to give you high rend and high damage output. Obviously you need to get the charge and hope the dice are with you but I’d rather take morghats over pretty much anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 4 hours ago, El Syf said: battleline in grand host, Only if Nagash is out for a stroll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Isn’t he always? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, El Syf said: Isn’t he always? No. I don’t use Nagash and never will. I don’t own him and never plan on it. I don’t like Nagash in lore and he feels super lame to fight against on the table top. I know I’m handicapping myself, but he just feels terrible to play against and I don’t want to do that to my opponents in casual games. I would rather win with style and my own lists than copy/paste the meta which is why I keep coming up with inefficient terrible ideas that can be eventually made into something good. After all I had been brainstorming around the Deathmarch and apparently separately so had Ianob and he won a whole tournament with it, so I was on the right track, I just hate distilling things down to like 4 unit types. I’m interested in gimmicks and overly complicated combos, which is why I always run a Mortis Engine even though it sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 47 minutes ago, El Syf said: Isn’t he always? Should be... pimp chilled long enough on his bone throne. Get your bony a** up and get sh*t done, that’s what mommy said really like fielding him, is fun and very different to play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Snake Eyes Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 One of the death players at my local hobby shop, the owner as a matter of fact, runs nagash in his grand host. He only fields 2 morghasts and I have yet to see them do much, I've watched games he's played but only ever faced his grand host list once. I ran LoN and ran the bromance that is manny and vordhai. Vordhai got tied up by harbingers and then proceded to make them shormairs new chew toys. Then the dynamic duo shredded nagash for the majority of his wounds, lost manny next turn to hand of dust but popped nagash for his last few wounds with shormaire's breath. While my wight king and generic vamp on foot pushed my skele blob through his skele blob I just hunted his necromancer with vordhai to remove the last of his heroes and unit regen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoollyMammoth Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Back before the nerf i played two Archai to bodyguard Nagash and they were incredibly powerful. They would just kill everything. A Lot of people are scared to use them in first cohort but if you charge with them, they are amazing. In terms of points compare them to the fact that one (in LoN) has the exact same offence as a single Avatar of Khaine. The only argument against them in LoN is "reapers are so much better". Reapers are the best unit in the game right now - of course they are better. People are spoiled by etheral so they think that a 4+ save with 5++ to mortals is bad defense. Reapers will get nerfed soon and then Morghast will be in a great place, so I would reccomend building them and getting ready. Their bravery debuff is also useful. Harbingers can be very strong ambushing in Legion of Night. Morgast are a great unit. The only downside to them is that they cannot be summoned or returned, etc. This puts a target on their head because your opponent will be desperate to kill something that will stay dead. The gravesite mechanics are likely to see some nerfs soon too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Snake Eyes Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said: The only downside to them is that they cannot be summoned or returned, etc. This puts a target on their head because your opponent will be desperate to kill something that will stay dead. The gravesite mechanics are likely to see some nerfs soon too. The gravesites I feel need some reworking, and official markers since players in my area all use different sized markers. Death players in my area also are scared of taking non-summonable units since they feel it's losing out on an abuseable mechanic. But given how often I run LoB I find i get more use out of blood knights than black knights. Albeit blobbing chains and skeles makes for a great tide of bodies to plant on an objective and never leave. There are only 2 players I've seen run morghasts, one of which I thoroughly stomped and the other considers them to be meh and mostly runs them to fill a battleline slot because he hates having to carry around a bucket load of skeles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said: The gravesites I feel need some reworking, and official markers since players in my area all use different sized markers. Death players in my area also are scared of taking non-summonable units since they feel it's losing out on an abuseable mechanic. But given how often I run LoB I find i get more use out of blood knights than black knights. Albeit blobbing chains and skeles makes for a great tide of bodies to plant on an objective and never leave. There are only 2 players I've seen run morghasts, one of which I thoroughly stomped and the other considers them to be meh and mostly runs them to fill a battleline slot because he hates having to carry around a bucket load of skeles. So basically no. No they're not. However I still think GHoN is worth running even without the Morghasts, just feels like a shame to waste a battle trait by completely ignoring it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Maybe it’s down to the dice, bit in a grand host list I’d always take them with or without Nagash. They’ve always done well for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, El Syf said: Maybe it’s down to the dice, bit in a grand host list I’d always take them with or without Nagash. They’ve always done well for me. Interesting. Well I do love the models. I’ll keep a list in my back pocket just Incase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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