Mark Williams Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Having just come away from a 2-day tournament, I suppose I have some more insight to add to this thread. I'm fairly of the opinion that SCE is basically a jack of all trades, for the most part, with the ability to hyper focus into an elite area at the cost of pretty much everything else. With heavy investment into Evocators and Gavriel, they can make a very aggressive assault list that has a very hard-hitting turn 1-smash. They also can make some hyper-aggressive shooting lists, which I personally feel is stronger than the assault approach. Considering the meta in my local area, I firmly believe a hyper-shooting list centered around Astral Templars would more or less destroy most of major top players in my area by a fairly wide margin. However, this army would be ludicrously expensive as well, as you'd have to buy multiple boxes of Vanguard-Raptors only for the birds in the boxes... The results might be worth it, however, if you purely were in it to win... Having said the above, and taking those two semi-broken lists out of the equation, I honestly feel SCE sits somewhere just below the top tier armies, and above the tier 2 armies. I'd say they are basically tier 1.3-ish or somewhere in there. Basically you can do very well, and occasionally might win a tournament with extreme luck and expert play, but in general you're starting out against some of the major enemy lists at a major disadvantage that is extremely difficult to overcome. The main problems with the list that I see, in general, is a lack of bodies to hold objectives, and a lack of sustained damage output. SCE can do a big alpha strike like no other list, but after that, they basically start diminishing in strength almost immediately, and I see many armies just fold them in half after their big power move, consistently. You have to make that big strike count, and if you can't do that, you almost auto-lose immediately. The army in this way feels inflexible, and it's difficult to generate multiple threats. Mobility is a big issue as well, and if you try to take units to fix this issue, your model count drops even lower. It just snowballs, and you feel hamstrung trying to fit everything in there. I have been thinking lately that the army desperately needs a unit of "horde" something just sitting on the table glutting up the deployment zone. I would either put in 40 skinks with clubs and spitters, or 30 sisters of slaughter with sacrificial knives. The reason for skinks would be to retreat from combat as soon as you get a chance and basically just be annoying. The reason for the SOS is the opposite. It would be to punish players who keep brushing up against your army and trying to stay 3" away in order to avoid contact. The SOS would just magnetize to anything that got close, and it would also chop up the weaker chaff stuff that is sent in to distract you. Regardless of what you use, I think this is the main thing that the book is missing, and there's unfortunately no option except to draw from the various order allies units. Since I've only been playing for a year, I can't really address the OP topic directly, in terms of whether or not SCE have "lost something", but I feel like I can safely say at this point that I feel they aren't top tier. Somewhere just right below it, yes, but I feel just plain outclassed when facing strong DoK and strong Death armies, and the lengths that I would have to go to in order to compete with those armies turns my stomach a bit, as my army would look like a joke on the table until the scions landed, at which point I would blow a hole in the enemy army in a single turn, and probably wipe most armies off the board by turn 2. That would be what I'd call a "Tier 1" army at that point, but it just feels like it's exposing the flaws in the game at that point, rather than being a "good general." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 On 10/9/2018 at 12:41 AM, Mark Williams said: Having said the above, and taking those two semi-broken lists out of the equation, I honestly feel SCE sits somewhere just below the top tier armies, and above the tier 2 armies. I'd say they are basically tier 1.3-ish or somewhere in there. Basically you can do very well, and occasionally might win a tournament with extreme luck and expert play, but in general you're starting out against some of the major enemy lists at a major disadvantage that is extremely difficult to overcome. Just to add my two cents to discussion. 1. Looking at the forum and tournament listing you seem to be right. Just below several other factions at the moments. Might be a shame if you bought Stormcast specifically to be top tier. But when the manufacturer is not only focussed on regularly updates but makes it an Unique Selling Point. Just chasing after the meta, the factions that are on top, you can only lose in the semi long term. That killer faction can be only tier 1.3 and therefore not what you bought it for. If 1.3 is not good enough, chasing the meta will be a very dissapointing road to travel. (definitely not saying you are by the way, but just something that came to mind while reading the last few posts). Edit: But where does a tier end and start? What percentage of placings, how many different builds. etc? On 10/9/2018 at 12:41 AM, Mark Williams said: The main problems with the list that I see, in general, is a lack of bodies to hold objectives, and a lack of sustained damage output. SCE can do a big alpha strike like no other list, but after that, they basically start diminishing in strength almost immediately, and I see many armies just fold them in half after their big power move, consistently. You have to make that big strike count, and if you can't do that, you almost auto-lose immediately. 2. This is what I love about the faction system. Everything should have their strengths and weaknesses. Stormast shouldn't outnumber hordes, just like Skaven shouldn't be more elite than Ogors. (in general of course). If a player doesn't like that, AoS might not be for them. (chess is very balanced though ) On 10/9/2018 at 12:41 AM, Mark Williams said: I'm fairly of the opinion that SCE is basically a jack of all trades, for the most part, with the ability to hyper focus into an elite area at the cost of pretty much everything else. With heavy investment into Evocators and Gavriel, they can make a very aggressive assault list that has a very hard-hitting turn 1-smash. They also can make some hyper-aggressive shooting lists, which I personally feel is stronger than the assault approach. Considering the meta in my local area, I firmly believe a hyper-shooting list centered around Astral Templars would more or less destroy most of major top players in my area by a fairly wide margin. This is how Stormcast should be for me. Elite, but with a lot of different potential areas of expertise. Fits the lore, fits their role as poster boys. But that is of course very personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 On 10/8/2018 at 6:10 PM, newsun said: Are they actually performing worse in the tournament scene? What are the statistics for pre 2.0 vs post 2.0 for SCE placings? While gw has been a lot more responsive to player base since the new regime got moving, they have been and likely always will be a company which uses rules to sell more models. Historically that is more biased towards newer items, though as seen in 8th whfb with the shift towards hordes it included a lot of older models no one ran. My own musing is that SCE is currently in a strange place as they are getting ready to make full chapters like Space Marines have and this book here to tide things over until then. Also beer and friends > winning 99% of the time when hobby tournaments are looked back on. I've tried both approaches for many years. It was rare to not see Stormcast in or near the top 10 of every major event with the previous book. However it seems to me 9/10 times was due to Vanguard Wing. Now Stormcast seem to place more consistently in the middle of events. I honestly feel mostly Vanguard Wing and to a lesser extent Staunch Defender, did too much damage to the potential development of Stormcast for their new book. They were the two things mostly responsible for propping SCE up, and over inflating the the perception of the entire allegiances power. Gav is doing similar now on a smaller scale. Most of the Stormcast framework has always been meh at best (Paldadins, Liberators, Prosecutors, Decimators, Concussors, several heroes, pretty much the whole Vanguard chamber). Its just had access to obscene rules to prop it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 This is the list I intend to take to my next tournament. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Hammers of SigmarMortal Realm: AqshyKnight-Azyros (100)- General- Trait: We Cannot Fail - Artefact: God-forged Blade Gavriel Sureheart (100)Celestant-Prime (340)5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield- 1x Grandhammers5 x Judicators (160)- Boltstorm Crossbows- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows5 x Judicators (160)- Boltstorm Crossbows- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows5 x Evocators (200)- 5x Grandstaves- Lore of Invigoration: Terrifying Aspect3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Castigators (80)3 x Castigators (80)Celestar Ballista (100)Total: 1950 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 124 It’s a reaction to the losses from my last tournament and trying to combat the deficiencies that I brought up in my last post without using allies. In theory this should give me a chance to counter some of the death and DoK armies that I faced , as well as covering two of my major weaknesses - lack of mobility and lack of multiple strike threats. The goal will be to create a crushing turn two, or three, strike against the enemy, while having basically nothing of value on the board for the opponent to kill. The birds will be used to zone out the board and the deployment zone, and late game to block charges in combination with the vanguard raptors. I’ll let you know how it works and will have some good feedback in a couple months. I just started building the units I need last night. If I have the time and inclination, I’m going to paint up a unit of twin hammer liberators instead of the shields. Just go full aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 24 minutes ago, Mark Williams said: This is the list I intend to take to my next tournament. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Hammers of SigmarMortal Realm: AqshyKnight-Azyros (100)- General- Trait: We Cannot Fail - Artefact: God-forged Blade Gavriel Sureheart (100)Celestant-Prime (340)5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield- 1x Grandhammers5 x Judicators (160)- Boltstorm Crossbows- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows5 x Judicators (160)- Boltstorm Crossbows- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows5 x Evocators (200)- 5x Grandstaves- Lore of Invigoration: Terrifying Aspect3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Castigators (80)3 x Castigators (80)Celestar Ballista (100)Total: 1950 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 124 It’s a reaction to the losses from my last tournament and trying to combat the deficiencies that I brought up in my last post without using allies. In theory this should give me a chance to counter some of the death and DoK armies that I faced , as well as covering two of my major weaknesses - lack of mobility and lack of multiple strike threats. The goal will be to create a crushing turn two, or three, strike against the enemy, while having basically nothing of value on the board for the opponent to kill. The birds will be used to zone out the board and the deployment zone, and late game to block charges in combination with the vanguard raptors. I’ll let you know how it works and will have some good feedback in a couple months. I just started building the units I need last night. If I have the time and inclination, I’m going to paint up a unit of twin hammer liberators instead of the shields. Just go full aggressive. Good luck maid. win for the god emperor yes-Yes win for Sigmar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderingrogue Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 So yea. Came 4th at gt final and missed out on 1st by a 6 inch run role. storm cast are fine guys. Go about your business :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, wanderingrogue said: So yea. Came 4th at gt final and missed out on 1st by a 6 inch run role. storm cast are fine guys. Go about your business I'd like to know what your list was and what armies you faced, if it's not too much trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderingrogue Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, Mark Williams said: I'd like to know what your list was and what armies you faced, if it's not too much trouble. Goddamit *tm* stormcast Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar Lord-Arcanum (180) - General - Trait: We Cannot Fail - Spell: Azyrite Halo Knight-Vexillor (120) Gavriel Sureheart (100) Lord-Castellant (100) - Artefact: God-forged Blade 20 x Sequitors (400) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces 5 x Sequitors (120) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces 5 x Sequitors (120) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces 10 x Evocators (400) - Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades 5 x Evocators (200) - Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades 5 x Evocators (200) - Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning Total: 1940 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 142 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderingrogue Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Played : Nurgle wall star drake stormcast morathi dok Archeon/slannesh horde dok morathi dok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexalopolis Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 59 minutes ago, wanderingrogue said: Goddamit *tm* stormcast Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar Lord-Arcanum (180) - General - Trait: We Cannot Fail - Spell: Azyrite Halo Knight-Vexillor (120) Gavriel Sureheart (100) Lord-Castellant (100) - Artefact: God-forged Blade 20 x Sequitors (400) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces 5 x Sequitors (120) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces 5 x Sequitors (120) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces 10 x Evocators (400) - Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades 5 x Evocators (200) - Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades 5 x Evocators (200) - Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning Total: 1940 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 142 I'm guessing your strategy was to drop the big units of Sequitors and Evocators with Gav to hold up the opponent's army, then sit on the objectives with the heroes and smaller units? That's a lot of wounds on big bases taking up a ton of real estate, even if your opponents killed their way through you've bought at least a couple of turns of points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Lexalopolis said: I'm guessing your strategy was to drop the big units of Sequitors and Evocators with Gav to hold up the opponent's army, then sit on the objectives with the heroes and smaller units? That's a lot of wounds on big bases taking up a ton of real estate, even if your opponents killed their way through you've bought at least a couple of turns of points. That's how it worked when I played him game 2 - chewed my way through everyone bar the castellant, but lost by a load on objectives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderingrogue Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Yep that's it in a nut shell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 2 hours ago, wanderingrogue said: Goddamit *tm* stormcast Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar Lord-Arcanum (180) - General - Trait: We Cannot Fail - Spell: Azyrite Halo Knight-Vexillor (120) Gavriel Sureheart (100) Lord-Castellant (100) - Artefact: God-forged Blade 20 x Sequitors (400) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces 5 x Sequitors (120) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces 5 x Sequitors (120) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces 10 x Evocators (400) - Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades 5 x Evocators (200) - Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades 5 x Evocators (200) - Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning Total: 1940 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 142 Which units start in the sky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Do you think it would be broken to give SCE the 40k ability objective secured? For those who don’t know, you can control an objective with objective secured even if you are drastically outnumbered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Ravinsild said: Do you think it would be broken to give SCE the 40k ability objective secured? For those who don’t know, you can control an objective with objective secured even if you are drastically outnumbered. One of the older editions of 40k went by number of wounds. So if I character was sitting on an objective with 5 wounds, he would count as 5 models. Normal SCE infantry likewise would count for 2 models each instead of 1. Monsters with lots of wounds, you basically had to knock them off an objective to claim it. I also seem to recall several missions in old 40k where the closest model to an objective held it, regardless of how many other models were in the area. As well, I seem to recall other missions where the first person to the objective won it, and then you basically had to kill the model holding the objective in order to claim it. The point is that there are several things that they could do to make it more "fair" in my opinion. But I do concede the point/idea that giving armies access to allies essentially is a form of giving players the necessary tools without changing the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, Mark Williams said: One of the older editions of 40k went by number of wounds. So if I character was sitting on an objective with 5 wounds, he would count as 5 models. Normal SCE infantry likewise would count for 2 models each instead of 1. Monsters with lots of wounds, you basically had to knock them off an objective to claim it. I also seem to recall several missions in old 40k where the closest model to an objective held it, regardless of how many other models were in the area. As well, I seem to recall other missions where the first person to the objective won it, and then you basically had to kill the model holding the objective in order to claim it. The point is that there are several things that they could do to make it more "fair" in my opinion. But I do concede the point/idea that giving armies access to allies essentially is a form of giving players the necessary tools without changing the rules. Who do SCE ally in to get the body count for objectives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Ravinsild said: Who do SCE ally in to get the body count for objectives? Every time I bring up this topic, I'm told to use skinks. I've seen a few lists, feels like in this thread even, suggesting or using them. So I guess skinks? From a personal standpoint, I'd like to play around with some witch aelves or sisters of slaughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexalopolis Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Skinks are the go to choice for cheap bodies on the board, plus they're very mobile which helps. There's definitely room to try other things out if you don't want to use skinks though. Witch elves, corsairs, eternal guard, and freeguild guard all come to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azdimy Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 15 hours ago, wanderingrogue said: Goddamit *tm* stormcast Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar Lord-Arcanum (180) - General - Trait: We Cannot Fail - Spell: Azyrite Halo Knight-Vexillor (120) Gavriel Sureheart (100) Lord-Castellant (100) - Artefact: God-forged Blade 20 x Sequitors (400) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces 5 x Sequitors (120) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces 5 x Sequitors (120) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces 10 x Evocators (400) - Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades 5 x Evocators (200) - Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades 5 x Evocators (200) - Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning Total: 1940 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 142 Congrats on the 4th place! What is disappointing is that this seems to be the current goto SCE type of list to make it to the top tables from what we ve seen so far. But this looks so bland. 53 golden infantry model. The chicken dog that comes with the castellant must be the center piece of the army ? I personnaly cannot wait for the meta to evolve so it doesn t revolve around bringing the max number of tanky/damage dealer models on the battlefield to be the most competitive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 I agree it seems quite min-maxy and centered around the most efficient units. This actually kind of correlates and confirms a lot of whats been said in this thread and others. My personal opinion is something like, “If you can’t beat them, join them.” I’m going to try my shooting thing at one more tournament coming up, then I suppose I’ll have to start building towards this list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 15 minutes ago, Mark Williams said: I agree it seems quite min-maxy and centered around the most efficient units. This actually kind of correlates and confirms a lot of whats been said in this thread and others. My personal opinion is something like, “If you can’t beat them, join them.” I’m going to try my shooting thing at one more tournament coming up, then I suppose I’ll have to start building towards this list. Well good luck?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tohshi Ydithe Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 someone mentioned bodies for objectives couldn't you ally in 60 skinks for 360 points which is a lot of bodies or well seems like a lot and could give you some stand on point defenses while the SCE go about killing things and defending the Skinks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 44 minutes ago, Tohshi Ydithe said: someone mentioned bodies for objectives couldn't you ally in 60 skinks for 360 points which is a lot of bodies or well seems like a lot and could give you some stand on point defenses while the SCE go about killing things and defending the Skinks? The balance is important. It’s difficult to create a force strong enough to be a viable threat to your opponent. If you don’t commit enough resources, you’ll smash against a wall, then the wall will fall on top of you and spend a few turns mopping up the little skinks left over. I think it’s viable you just have to play around with the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schwabbele Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Another 5-0 for SCE , overall place 3 it seems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 15 minutes ago, schwabbele said: Another 5-0 for SCE , overall place 3 it seems What was their list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.