Lexalopolis

Hello all, I'm gradually building up a BoC/Tzeentch force based around Tzaangor but I've also been keeping an eye on the rise of FEC/Gristlegore lists. What would you all say are the best tools that BoC has for dealing with all the terrorgheists out there these days? I'm half tempted to design a desolating beastherd list with big ungor raider blocks and four chimeras, but that's probably an overreaction!

I was just about to make a post picking the brains of other players on how a Tzeentch army approaches the FEC problem, looks like you found a solution that works for you! A rundown of how you use the list would be fantastic when you get a moment. As for the rest of us, how do we handle the FEC/Gristlegore problem? I've seen what they can do first hand while playing Stormcast and I'm newly transitioning to Tzeentch/BoC, so I'm weighing out my options. So far there are a few tools I've come up with but I would definitely like to hear thoughts from the rest of you. - to hit from geminids and dirgehorn Spell damage from bolt of tzeentch, infernal gateway, fireblast Skyfire shooting Horror chaff walls

Lens is less effective post FAQ, now it only protects a single unit per battle round, so your opponent has to pick who will take reduced damage from the comet rather than stopping everything. Spell mirror is a decent counter to the comet now but with a risk attached.

It's situationally useful, not an auto-include but worth considering. It gives you ranged force projection outside of unbind range and does small amounts of mortal wounds over a wide area, and to use it consistently requires two wizards: one to dispel it and another to cast it again. A smart opponent will run out of its pulse range and ignore it to force you to waste a spell dispelling it. I've used it against Death and Seraphon armies, with mixed success.

Ethereal is a solid choice, probably about even with Ignax Scales for the MW protection. I've found it very useful on a sorceress on black dragon so I imagine it would work on a Stardrake. What I've been considering is stacking MW on save abilities since the Stardrake is so huge and enemies have to attack in combat now. Lord celestant shield, smouldering helm, azyrite halo, and shield of thorns from an allied Sisters of the Thorn, plus warding lantern and staunch defender. I think my math test against 60 attacks with no rend did something like 80 mortal wounds back to the unit and 10 mortals back to everything within 3" while the Stardrake took 1 or 2 wounds.

I agree with your points, generally you'd want to split that unit up unless you're worried about drops, but SCE tend to be a high drop army. When you said "hammers summon" though did you mean the command ability that returns a unit to the field when it's destroyed? That only works on keyword Redeemers which are liberators, sequitors, and Steelheart's Champions.

Re-reading the staff description I agree with your second point, the item clearly states it increases the overall damage to that unit from a spell by +1 MW, so that is my mistake. However, I would disagree with your first point. The item increases damage dealt by spells, and endless spells are exactly that: spells. While they do work differently, it is still a spell manifested by the wizard that deals damage to a unit in that phase, so the staff of focus should still work, and most of the discussion I have heard about the utility of the staff comes from the staff+comet combo. If you are concerned about whether that is a valid use I would check with your opponent or the tournament organizer in advance and come to an agreement, but as written it seems fair to use the staff with endless spells.

I've been wondering about how to make an effective convocation list and haven't settled on the "one" list that does it best, but there's a few factors to juggle and I'm happy to try and think out the mindset behind the army build rather than a specific list. Hopefully that leads to something useful! Since we're making a magic-based army there's a few questions we need to ask ourselves. First, what spells to do we have worth casting? See Black Blade's thread for a good discussion there. Most of the SCE spells are easier to cast but lower on damage output, with some decent utility spells in there. My personal votes would be for spells like azyrite halo, thundershock, lightning blast, celestial blades, speed of lightning, and some of the warscroll spells like LAoD's storm lance. Chain lightning I could see situational use for, while most of the other lore spells I would probably ignore. Also worth remembering that all the lord arcanums have prime electrids, which turns arcane bolt into d3/d6 (10+ cast) damage at 18", which could potentially snipe a closer support hero like a hag queen if you get lucky. There are definitely endless spells worth taking like the comet and cogs, probably which ones you take is up to preference. Second question is how good are our wizards? Most of them only have one cast, with the LAoT and Aventis being the only ones with two. That can be modified with cogs or the balewind, and is worth keeping in mind for the staff of focus which only affects one wizard for one hero phase, so you really want to get the maximum benefit if you take it. All of our wizards have a 3+ save and a minimum of 5 wounds, and half of them are on a mount for extra mobility, so they're fairly survivable, and many of them can explode if you try and take them on in combat which is a small extra deterrent. Third question is how can we buff our wizards? Several options here: staff of focus gives +1 to cast and +1 MW for spells cast for that hero phase; Celestial Warbringers command ability is +1 to cast for a command point and stacks; grand convocation gives a +1 to cast if two other wizards from the battalion are nearby; stardrakes give a +1 cast if within 18" of them; arcane terrain gives +1 to cast and unbind. You can combine all of those things in one list, although at that point you've spent around 1200pts just in heroes and a battalion so it may not be the most balanced list. Given these points, it seems like a grand convocation list wants to take a wizard with a decent damage spell and cogs, pop the staff of focus, drop the comet, and fire off as many other damaging spells as possible. That way the comet drop does between 2-4 MWs on everything it hits, plus something like storm lance doing 2 MW for every model it passes through on a 5+, or chain lightning doing d3+1 MW then 2 MW to nearby units, or even the Incantor doing 2 MW to every enemy unit within 18". The staff also (I assume) affects endless spells so there could be some fun shenanigans there, like sweeping a bunch of units with geminids for d3+1 MW or pendulum for d6+1, or whacking a specific unit with swords or the celestian vortex for 2 MW on each roll of a 6 (5+ against chaos, poor jerks). After that, I see the list functioning as a core wizard group doing damage and utility support where possible, while another wizard (probably the lord exorcist) supports a melee line with thundershock or azyrite halo, and every turn the comet gets dispelled and recast to make as much use of it as possible. Your hero phase won't be as damaging as a Tzeentch army or as debilitating as a Death army, but I think there's a functional list in there, and one that's a little different than some of the other common SCE builds right now. Plus you've got tons of wizards so a lot of battle plans will be in your favor for capturing and holding objectives, and if you play in the realms you'll have seven other spells to work with and an army ready to use them. An example off the top of my head, if you really wanted to punish one specific unit and were perfectly positioned, you could do the following mortal wounds: d3 (comet, functionally it ranges from 1 to 3) + d3/d6 (arcane bolt) + d3 (lightning blast) + d3 (chain lightning) +1 (spirit storm) for 1+3d3+d3/d6, ranging from 5-16 MW that turn from casting.

I'm not sold on the pendulum, but admittedly I haven't tried it yet. The d6 wounds is nice but the limited movement seems challenging to make good use of. I suppose one good way to do it would be to summon it, hit the unit you want, then dispell it and try again later. Definitely give it a try and see how it works for you once you start playing! Darkling Covens is at its heart a horde army that has some elite troop options. You can absolutely make an army that fields 90 to 120 models of executioners and black guard and still have points for sorceresses and an ally or two. The two main ways to build the army that I can see are either focusing on the battalion, in which case you definitely want to max out on 30 black guard and 30 executioners, or avoid the battalion and take more elite troops at the expense of all the benefits the battalion gives. Either way you are going to have a lot of bodies on the board, that's just the nature of the army. As a side note, you can absolutely do some conversions on the hurricanum to make it thematically fit with the army, but if you want to run Darkling Covens allegiance you can't take the hurricanum since Collegiate Arcane and Darkling Covens aren't allies. You could run a Grand Alliance Order army and take both, which is probably the best choice if you really want to focus on executioners. Ballistas are a very decent ally choice to get some long range firepower for relatively cheap.

At 2k points in the Thrall Warhost, how many sorceresses and endless spells have you all been running? My current list has one SoBD and one sorc on foot, and I typically take cogs and geminids. I'm tempted to either take a bunch of cheap spells like shackles, pallisade, and swords, or maybe try including the lifeswarm to have that tiny bit of healing in the list.

Thanks for the info! That would generally make the staves the better option then. The additional range definitely helps too.

I did the math for Sequitors the other day and mauls/swords are nearly even unless you are rerolling wounds, then swords pull slightly ahead. This may make swords more optimal in a large unit, but you would have a hard time getting them all in combat anyway. Feel free to use whichever one you prefer. For Evocators a lot of people favor the increased range and damage of the staves. Typically I would go for rend over damage, but a 2" range means they can attack over a 40mm base, and with Nighthaunt and a rend immunity artefacts running around damage might be the way to go. Haven't done the math yet but I've heard the staves come out ahead.

Some quick math on druchii.net says they're about even in a full unit, with empower the extra attacks from the blades pull ahead a bit. Personally I would favor more attacks and the look of the swords, but the maces are always going to be easier to find because of the starter set. It's a shame the Redemption Cache doesn't seem very useful though.

Solid feedback, thanks! Might be worth trying in some practice games with friends. I feel that longstrikes are probably best if the list is built around them, whereas the other ranged options work pretty solidly even if they are just plugged into a list. What have people's thoughts been on a ranged mortal wound based list? With all the new spells and the comet it seems like Stormcast have some solid options If you wanted to go a different route than a Gavriel bomb.

Good call, I completely forgot about that! You'll still wound pretty consistently with a 3+, but that 2+ would have been nice.