Is AoS cluttered?

[Sleboda]

4 hours ago, Attackmack said:

You have to scan every warscroll every phase of every turn to make sure your not missing something important.

This is standard fare for GW games, but due to the design choice to 'offload' the heavy lifting from the core rules to the unit rules, it's worse in AoS.

Now, don't get me wrong. I like this decision. It does have the drawback you are talking about, though.

My GF makes us flow charts and reference sheets for our armies and other GW forces and games. It helps a lot.

[Jamopower]

18 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

This is standard fare for GW games, but due to the design choice to 'offload' the heavy lifting from the core rules to the unit rules, it's worse in AoS.

Now, don't get me wrong. I like this decision. It does have the drawback you are talking about, though.

My GF makes us flow charts and reference sheets for our armies and other GW forces and games. It helps a lot.

I also  massively prefer having the rules for abilities in a single place under the units than having a tens of pages of special rules listed in several rulebooks with keywords. Especially as often the special rules are split between special attacks, special movement skills, special weapons, etc. For example The Batman Miniature Game has this, which is especially annoying as every miniature comes with a card that has all of the special rules listed. 

[NemoVonUtopia]

I have found that reading over the rules after a game helps me to realize things that I did wrong. 

Also the new stormcast is probably one of the most cluttered armies because almost all their units have different modes in different phases and they have magic. Another complication added in 2nd edition is some abilities are within and others are wholly within which is another layer to remember.

Don't worry about looking things up, I've been playing my khorne army since the beginning of AoS and I still reference the warscroll cards and double check things during my opponent's turn to make sure I remember everything correctly.

[murphs]

One of the problems is that the game doesn't scale very well. Every unit has a unique warscroll and set of abilities which is very difficult to memorize.

Previous editions standardized stat lines and weapons. For example a halberd was +1 strength and two handed no matter what army used it. Now, Phoenix Guard, Chaos Warriors and Freeguild guard all have halberds with totally different statlines.

AoS shuffled the crazy 100 pages of rules you saw in previous editions into the warscrolls. This is great for learning the game and starting out but a headache for large games, especially when you own multiple armies.

[blueshirtman]

I think AoS no matter if 1st or 2ed, works great for 10000pts games where people stop carrying about actual range, unit spread and stuff like the new spells can have really cool effects. On the flip side it can be horrible at something 1000pts, where one unit can sometimes walk through the opposing army, or a double turn can just wipe out the opposing army or give an objective scoring win end of turn 2.

[Enoby]

I quite like larger pointed games (over 2000), but rarely play them due to time and space constraints. The more points, the less swingy the game - one thing that I don't like about AoS for me is how swingy damage is: everything has a pretty low save and wound score, so most things are vaporised if focussed on. If you have more points, more things can die to bad luck without it being totally game changing. 

Back on topic, AoS is becoming pretty difficult to navigate. I don't think it's the complexity, but rather that there are so many different parts of the rules (warscrolls, allegiance abilities, command traits, command points, artifacts, endless spells, realm spells) not to mention the FAQs that it can be difficult to find what you want. Even if you have a physical copy of all the books in front of you, there's a good chance that there will have been at least an FAQ addressing at least one of those books, and you'll need that in mind when playing - it's even worse if you don't know there's an FAQ and you're informed mid game. 

[Sleboda]

58 minutes ago, Enoby said:

AoS is becoming pretty difficult to navigate. I don't think it's the complexity, but rather that there are so many different parts of the rules

For sure.

I like the "toolbox" idea they're promoting, but sheesh, it gets tough to know what tools are available when they are not even all in the same box.

[Kamose]

It's important to remember that we have a choice as to what tools to use. No one ever said you have to play with every possible rule every single game. 

My group rarely uses Triumphs and never gives a special rule to more than 2-3 pieces of terrain. Sometimes we don't bother with Time of War rules or even Allegiance Abilities. ?

The point is if you're having trouble remembering rules, stop using so many.  Stop trying to juggle 20 special rules at once if you're still a bit shaky on 15 of them. Play smaller games with fewer units. Start with simpler objectives to focus on learning the rules of your army.  The complexity of AoS is entirely up to you.

 

[Wraith01]

Stick to one army. Play small games (500 points) using only the basic rules for a few games. Don't add alliance abilities or anything else until you have a good grasp on your basic army. I find playing a Skirmish Campaign, then Path to Glory Campaign before moving into regular games is a great way to start out. 

[PlasticCraic]

Stick in there mate, you'll get there.  

One thing that doesn't get spoken about a lot is that even experienced players make mistakes in this game.  It's actually a big part of the skill curve.  You will hear people saying things like "he really knows that army", the implication being that he really knows how to use it strategically and get the most from it in that sense (which is true) - but the unspoken part is that it also means "he doesn't often walk away from the table kicking himself that he forgot somethine that would have been really important".

Sequencing your hero phase efficiently, leaving things in buff range, remembering what bonuses you have - it's a lot to take in!  It's part of the game and if you stick to a single army for the foreseeable, you will do much better and surprise yourself at how efficient you get.

[karch]

It definitely is, but still not as bad as, say, Infinity.

 

[Kamose]

4 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

One thing that doesn't get spoken about a lot is that even experienced players make mistakes in this game.

Excellent point! I've been playing literally since release day 3 years ago (not continuously ?). There's almost never a game where I don't forget some small detail or rules interaction. There are so many moving parts!

[RafaBO]

I don't think I have seen anyone proposing this, though stop me if you have heard it before. If you like the minis and the AoS universe, why don't you give a chance to Shadespire? The game takes minutes to learn (if you have a buddy that have the starting box, you can learn as you go in your first game), there are just a few armies (i.e. warbands) of 3 to 7 miniatures, where just one or two are different and the other have the exact same parameters, and the game plays under 40 minutes. I know it is not exactly AoS or AoS skirmish, but as long as you have the cards, you could use your own AoS miniatures and enjoy the hobby on a scale that you may feel more comfortable with.

[Cèsar de Quart]

I've been feeling overwhelmed by special rules for quite some times. I miss the times when units would be a combination of stats and elites and characters may have special units, and that's it. 

[Attackmack]

3 hours ago, RafaBO said:

I don't think I have seen anyone proposing this, though stop me if you have heard it before. If you like the minis and the AoS universe, why don't you give a chance to Shadespire? The game takes minutes to learn (if you have a buddy that have the starting box, you can learn as you go in your first game), there are just a few armies (i.e. warbands) of 3 to 7 miniatures, where just one or two are different and the other have the exact same parameters, and the game plays under 40 minutes. I know it is not exactly AoS or AoS skirmish, but as long as you have the cards, you could use your own AoS miniatures and enjoy the hobby on a scale that you may feel more comfortable with.

I own Shadespire and some additional warbands  Thanks for the suggestion though, and I agree it is a really fun game!

 

I just feel GW might have gone a little too far with all the special abilities of units. Not every single unit need special abilities, definitely not several longwinded abilities with dynamic effects depending on x or y.

I guess its because the streamlined statline really cant offer much variety  

[stratigo]

On 7/3/2018 at 7:05 AM, Jamopower said:

I think it scales surprisingly well up from 500 or so points (although in that size, you'll want to have min unit sizes of 3-5 for most of the stuff and limit the heroes to one to keep it interesting). In smaller games I would also leave the faction specific allegiances and spells mostly away as they are not always so well scaling (4 gravesites in a 500 point game could be interesting...). My favourite size is 1500 points, you get plenty of stuff, but not everything you'd want and it reduces the length bit from 2000 points. 1000 points works also well.

 

Honestly, I think the balance for small points games are so dramatically off in 2.0 that you'd have to curate anyone playing at that level.

[silentdeathz]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

 

Honestly, I think the balance for small points games are so dramatically off in 2.0 that you'd have to curate anyone playing at that level.

I mean, that was the same in 1.0 too.  The low points games are just never particularly balanced.

 

[Jamopower]

6 hours ago, stratigo said:

 

Honestly, I think the balance for small points games are so dramatically off in 2.0 that you'd have to curate anyone playing at that level.

Of course, but I would say that it applies for any point size. You won't have fun games without both players having the same attitude. Playing minmaxed army against a mishmash of units will not be fun in any points size. 

What I meant is that the rules work in such way that the 500 point game can give a pleasing gaming experience also for more experienced player, unlike e. G. Old whfb where 500 point match simply didn't work with the whole gaming system at all,  as it lacked so many elements of the game. My thumb rule is that you need at least around 8 units per side to call it a match, and by halving the unit sizes, thst fits well in 500 points.