AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Chumphammer]

My 1st list and the points change difference for dok

[Fyrm]

Alright, here’s my first DoK 3.0 list. It’s probably garbage, but it’s what I own and feels rather fun. 
 

khailebron 1965 points [likely to get the Triumph, and just how the points worked. Taking Indomitable if so]
Bloodwrack shrine [steed of shadows]
bloodwrack Medusa [general, mindrazer]
Melusai Ironscale [subfaction item]

15 blood sisters

10 blood sisters

10 blood stalkers

5 blood stalkers

5 blood stalkers

blood viper

Soulsnare shackles

 

all units are in a battle regimen, so one drop. Aim to take first, mindrazer the 15 sisters if possible, either way charge them right into their front line. Between that and 20 stalkers, plus whatever else the casters can do, and maybe the endless spell viper if there’s juicy targets it can get to, should be able to output a lot of hurt turn one. And if the viper came out it gets a second round of eating in their herophase, so will have to keep that in mind in case there isn’t anything good in my hero phase but might get an opening in theirs. 

[KrispyXIV]

First 3.0 build, feels stretched thin -

Hagg Nar
Warlord Detachment - 
The Shadow Queen - 660
Morathi-Khaine (Mindrazors, assuming intended to be Legal)
Hag Queen on Cauldron (Arcane Tome + Steed of Shadows) - 255
Khinerai Lifetakers x5 - 90
Khinerai Lifetakers x5 - 90

Vanguard Detachment
Melusai IronScale (General, Devoted Disciple, The Ulfuri) - 115
Blood Sisters x5 - 140

Monster Hunters Detachment
Blood Sisters x5 - 140  
Blood Stalkers x15 - 510

Typical Morathi + stalkers, with a fast distraction Vanguard that should be capable of moving shockingly fast with the Ironscale CA - go stick that into something that needs distracted, try and shoot folks to death with the Stalkers, and use the Khinerai to sneakily grab objectives.  

Edited June 18, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[Sivyre]

Can some one help explain to me why nearly everyone takes lifetakers over heartrenders?

Because to me if you need to set up 9” from enemy units arnt you taking a gamble in that you may not make that 9”charge where as heartrenders have a 12” shooting profile that your guaranteed to get use from seeing as these units deploy at the end of the move phase into your shooting phase?

[KrispyXIV]

8 minutes ago, Sivyre said:

Can some one help explain to me why nearly everyone takes lifetakers over heartrenders?

Because to me if you need to set up 9” from enemy units arnt you taking a gamble in that you may not make that 9”charge where as heartrenders have a 12” shooting profile that your guaranteed to get use from seeing as these units deploy at the end of the move phase into your shooting phase?

Well, now they're 5 points cheaper.  

Beyond that, theyre crazy damage output on the charge and have some pretty good non-deep strike shenanigans when combined with mindrazors.  

Heartrenders don't really do a lot of damage, regardless.  I've found them best for having good potential to steal objectives- their ability to move after shooting can let them be in surprising places way more quickly than most opponents may assume. 

Different roles, really.  

[Fred1245]

5 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

My 1st list and the points change difference for dok

Don't take heart. If your opponent has a priest you'll only actually get value out of it 33% of the time. Or 41.65% with the Avatar. If you drop both (especially considering how bad the Avatar is now that it's super rare to have a free prayer to activate him) then you'll have enough to reinforce a unit of Stalkers.

[Black Blade]

Can someone explain to me why Blood Stalkers jumped so much? I haven't played in over a year so I'm out of the loop. 

[Fred1245]

4 hours ago, Black Blade said:

Can someone explain to me why Blood Stalkers jumped so much? I haven't played in over a year so I'm out of the loop. 

The got 2 shots in the last update and were part of a broken combo the new battletome killed.

GW's making pointing decisions for the army based on a made up reality where the last battletome was good and didn't nerf almost everything across the board.

We get the honor of being the second hardest hit faction behind Tzeentch (including the single largest nerf in the update with Morgwraeth going up more than double her current point cost) despite doing nothing meaningful competitively since the Battletome dropped.

At least we're not Slaanesh.

[KrispyXIV]

5 hours ago, Black Blade said:

Can someone explain to me why Blood Stalkers jumped so much? I haven't played in over a year so I'm out of the loop. 

They were, until yesterday,  considered by every player I'd met since starting the game to be the second most overpowered shooting unit in the game behind Lumineth Sentinels.

And Morathi-Khaine doubles your investment by letting them shoot twice.  

That combo is still fully intact, but its much more expensive now and leaves you very short on resources. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[Fyrm]

They also got the same battleline treatment as Sisters. So as long as you have a snake general you can run just them for troops and fight in the shade. 

[UnholyRevenant]

Honestly Morathi at 660 feels so criminally cheap, that at this point I'd shove her in just about every list.

[Sivyre]

4 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

The got 2 shots in the last update and were part of a broken combo the new battletome killed.

GW's making pointing decisions for the army based on a made up reality where the last battletome was good and didn't nerf almost everything across the board.

We get the honor of being the second hardest hit faction behind Tzeentch (including the single largest nerf in the update with Morgwraeth going up more than double her current point cost) despite doing nothing meaningful competitively since the Battletome dropped.

At least we're not Slaanesh.

I would argue the opposite of your ‘second hardest hit faction’ and go a direction more inline of got off easy.

Sure morgwaeth was heavily increased in points but let’s be realistic in that she was heavily under costed for whatever reason. There was absolutely no reason she should have ever been 80pts - 10 points cheaper then a hag queen previously. We all knew she would make a big jump up.

In hindsight our biggest hit was to the stalkers with 30 point increase.

 

[Chumphammer]

10 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

Don't take heart. If your opponent has a priest you'll only actually get value out of it 33% of the time. Or 41.65% with the Avatar. If you drop both (especially considering how bad the Avatar is now that it's super rare to have a free prayer to activate him) then you'll have enough to reinforce a unit of Stalkers.

Heart is still great for that turn you want to smash in and reduce damage back. Not all armies have priests and if they do its not many, which means thats the loss of a prayer cast to try and dispel it 

With sacrament of blood I can move my avatar turn 1 on a 2+ with Iron circlet and Hagg Nar

Plan is have the hag put witch brew on Snakes, with MR (if it goes off)
Use mirror dance to move cauldron and shrine up to a position where they can get the +1 from avatar
SQ puts sacrament on sisters (now making avatar move for free as they count as being round 3 blood rite) and then have the now forward Hag cast heart into an advanced position. 

Can now use ironscale to run and charge the sisters, who will now be under the advanced bubble of fanatical faith and the heart

This would work well on any turn to let me "put the foot on the gas" on these smaller tables. 

I always wanna write a Morathi list and a morathi/gotrek list

Im gonna be writing a lot of lists lol

[Fyrm]

Do we know if we can run allies in core battalions? I feel like it’d be a good idea to run a monster, given how many VPs we can earn if we can keep it alive and doing stuffs. There is the spell, but that isn’t reliable. 

[KrispyXIV]

3 hours ago, Sivyre said:

I would argue the opposite of your ‘second hardest hit faction’ and go a direction more inline of got off easy.

Sure morgwaeth was heavily increased in points but let’s be realistic in that she was heavily under costed for whatever reason. There was absolutely no reason she should have ever been 80pts - 10 points cheaper then a hag queen previously. We all knew she would make a big jump up.

 

 

Note also that Morgwaeths cost is also super easy to reverse engineer.  She pays I believe a 10 point premium for being a unique character (this 10 points is probably what needs cut - its not worth it for 2" reach), plus 12 points a wound for the blade coven (EXACTLY the same as Witch Elves).

Whether the blade coven is worth as much as witch aelves (they have a bow in addition to 3 attacks each) is debatable, but Morgwaeths cost is actually EXTREMELY rational.  

She's probably only paying 10 points too much currently, presuming we accept witches are costed correctly (they feel high to me).

Edited June 18, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[Fred1245]

On 6/18/2021 at 11:18 AM, Chumphammer said:

Heart is still great for that turn you want to smash in and reduce damage back. Not all armies have priests and if they do its not many, which means thats the loss of a prayer cast to try and dispel it 

With sacrament of blood I can move my avatar turn 1 on a 2+ with Iron circlet and Hagg Nar

Plan is have the hag put witch brew on Snakes, with MR (if it goes off)
Use mirror dance to move cauldron and shrine up to a position where they can get the +1 from avatar
SQ puts sacrament on sisters (now making avatar move for free as they count as being round 3 blood rite) and then have the now forward Hag cast heart into an advanced position. 

Can now use ironscale to run and charge the sisters, who will now be under the advanced bubble of fanatical faith and the heart

This would work well on any turn to let me "put the foot on the gas" on these smaller tables. 

I always wanna write a Morathi list and a morathi/gotrek list

Im gonna be writing a lot of lists lol

If you're smashing in, there shouldn't BE much damage coming back. It's value comes almost entirely from blunting an opponent's charge, not as much as a 'win more' option when you fight first.

Ironcirclet was difficult to get before and now requires you to forgo an otherwise easy 1drop setup. Avatar is also harder to justify than ever, even with circlet.

I don't really understand what you're going for in the third paragraph. You talk about Mirror dancing the Cauldron UP for the Avatar bonus but the Avatar will be BEHIND you unless you deployed everything else on the back table edge for some reason. 

Also, are you saying you would sacrement some Blood Sisters and that would somehow wake up the Avatar before turn 2(as the list is Hagg Narr)? Because that's not how that works.

 

On 6/18/2021 at 2:11 PM, KrispyXIV said:

Note also that Morgwaeths cost is also super easy to reverse engineer.  She pays I believe a 10 point premium for being a unique character (this 10 points is probably what needs cut - its not worth it for 2" reach), plus 12 points a wound for the blade coven (EXACTLY the same as Witch Elves).

Whether the blade coven is worth as much as witch aelves (they have a bow in addition to 3 attacks each) is debatable, but Morgwaeths cost is actually EXTREMELY rational.  

She's probably only paying 10 points too much currently, presuming we accept witches are costed correctly (they feel high to me).

Morgwraeth is much less than the sum of her parts. I get that she shouldn't be cheaper than a regular hag queen (who are also quite a bit too expensive now that witchbrew is much worse), but 175pts is insane. She exists to give out witchbrew and prayers. Her ensemble exist to die before she does. None of them are capable of accomplishing anything more than that. Pricing them per wound like Witch Aelves ignores basically everything about how Sigmar works.

100% of the blade coven's value is letting Morgwraeth shrug wounds to them. Pretending they can fight or even hold objectives is wishful thinking at best. (And witch aelves were high at 10 ppm).

Hag Queens are at 105ish now, yeah? Realistically I think 90 is probably more fair. If a Hagg Queen is fair at 90 I would put Morgwraeth at 120-130.

[KrispyXIV]

3 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

Also, are you saying you would sacrement some Blood Sisters and that would somehow wake up the Avatar before turn 2(as the list is Hagg Narr)? Because that's not how that works.

Are you sure that's not how that works?  That's how I've read everyone else on the internet claim how that works. 

The benefits of Zealot's Rage (step 3 of Blood Rites) are that Avatars of Khaine are automatically animated, and there's absolutely no limitation to that part of effect.  Was there an FAQ on this I missed?

[Sivyre]

2 hours ago, KrispyXIV said:

Are you sure that's not how that works?  That's how I've read everyone else on the internet claim how that works. 

The benefits of Zealot's Rage (step 3 of Blood Rites) are that Avatars of Khaine are automatically animated, and there's absolutely no limitation to that part of effect.  Was there an FAQ on this I missed?

That is exactly how it works, you DONT add 1 to the blood rites table for the ENTIRE army, but ONLY the unit receiving the sacrament of blood prayer may add 1 to the number of the current battle round

Sacrament of blood on your blood sisters won’t bare any fruit for your avatar 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Sivyre

[Fred1245]

44 minutes ago, Sivyre said:

That is exactly how it works, you DONT add 1 to the blood rites table for the ENTIRE army, but ONLY the unit receiving the sacrament of blood prayer may add 1 to the number of the current battle round

Sacrament of blood on your blood sisters won’t bare any fruit for your avatar 

Exactly. For @KrispyXIV, think about it this way, if you put Blessing of Khaine on you Blood Stalkers, does your Bloodwrack Shrine get to reroll its ward? Or even more accurately, if you put Sacrement of Blood on your Witch Aelves turn 2 in a kellebron army, does that mean your Slaughter Cauldron can reroll 1s to hit?

Prayers only effect the unit they target.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Fred1245

[KrispyXIV]

16 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

Exactly. For @KrispyXIV, think about it this way, if you put Blessing of Khaine on you Blood Stalkers, does your Bloodwrack Shrine get to reroll its ward? Or even more accurately, if you put Sacrement of Blood on your Witch Aelves turn 2 in a kellebron army, does that mean your Slaughter Cauldron can reroll 1s to hit?

Prayers only effect the unit they target.

Those examples are completely different.  

Clearly, your other models don't benefit from the increase of Sacrament of Blood because it doesn't affect them.

But when you put Sacrament on a unit that advances them to turn 3, the benefits for that unit include "In addition, Friendly Avatars of Khaine are automatically animated."  (Bold mine)

It's like if it said, "In addition, friendly models within X gain a benefit", the benefits to a specific unit confer benefits to other units.  Except in this case, there's no range - the unit at turn 3 is granting benefits to all Avatars of Khaine on the table.  

That's a simple language reading of the rules, not some exploitive interpretation. 

It's also one I've seen echoed in multiple places. 

Maybe it isn't intended, but its something I saw in multiple places prior to the first big FAQ - and it wasn't addressed there either. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[Fred1245]

8 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Those examples are completely different.  

Clearly, your other models don't benefit from the increase of Sacrament of Blood because it doesn't affect them.

But when you put Sacrament on a unit that advances them to turn 3, the benefits for that unit include "In addition, Friendly Avatars of Khaine are automatically animated."  (Bold mine)

It's like if it said, "In addition, friendly models within X gain a benefit", the benefits to a specific unit confer benefits to other units.  Except in this case, there's no range - the unit at turn 3 is granting benefits to all Avatars of Khaine on the table.  

That's a simple language reading of the rules, not some exploitive interpretation. 

It's also one I've seen echoed in multiple places. 

Maybe it isn't intended, but its something I saw in multiple places prior to the first big FAQ - and it wasn't addressed there either. 

Huh. The rule is written to not include the 'this unit' clause in the new book like it did in the previous one so it looks like you are correct. One major issue from pirating/memorizing the new rules in order to avoid endorsing the battletome is occassionally weird stuff like that slips by.

What a terrible way to write that though. It's stupid to even KEEP that rule at this point. Even when this book does good stuff it does it in a terrible way.

 

[Chumphammer]

6 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

 

I don't really understand what you're going for in the third paragraph. You talk about Mirror dancing the Cauldron UP for the Avatar bonus but the Avatar will be BEHIND you unless you deployed everything else on the back table edge for some reason. 

 

 

Others already shown how the avatar trick works. I have confirmed it with playtesters and it is legal, might change in next faq but who knows atm

As for other this, I did pictures to help. 

Picture 1 is both armies deployed on new board setting (I used min models for ease of showing)

I set 20" apart though most games will be 19.

Medusa at back casts mirror dance on the Cauldron and 2nd Shrine. Shrine moves to a point where the 12 Hagg nar bubble will cover into the enemy front line while cauldron moves its wholly within 9 of the avatar but still forwards so the 18" cauldron buddle covers the same as the shrine.

Cauldron can now cast the hand so it can cover the sisters when they assault and itself/the shrine

Finally sisters run up using Ironscale ability, even on average roll 6 they will be in easy charging range of the enemy line 

 

[InSaint]

16 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

Her ensemble exist to die before she does. None of them are capable of accomplishing anything more than that. Pricing them per wound like Witch Aelves ignores basically everything about how Sigmar works.

100% of the blade coven's value is letting Morgwraeth shrug wounds to them. Pretending they can fight or even hold objectives is wishful thinking at best. (And witch aelves were high at 10 ppm).

I don't know if this is legal but technically the blade coven has the <Melusai> keyword and is considered a Melusai unit?

[Milano]

Hi everyone,

I have a small "AoS 2.0 farewell" tournament coming up next week. One detail still troubles me though.. should I take the bloodwrack viper spell, or not? What were your experiences with it in AoS 2.0? Here my list:

HAG NARR
Morathi
Shadow Queen
Hag on Cauldron (Iron Circlet, Blessing of Khaine)
Morgwaeth (Cathechism of Murder)
Medusa on foot (General, Ulfuri)
30x Witch Aelves w. Bucklers
10x Blood Sisters
10x Blood Stalkers
1x Blade Coven
Battalion: Vypiric Guard 
2.000 points

My idea is to drop the big block of W. Aelves to 20 and use the 100 points for Viper + Geminids of Uhl-Gysh.
Especially having Morathi with one "free" casting slot each hero phase.

Cheers
Milano

 

[drkrash]

I had one game in which the Viper was solid as a hero killer and blocker and 2 other games where it attacked my aelves.  I still like it.  No question that it's value improved immensely in 3.0.