AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Mnch]

so votann it is?

[Arzalyn]

So for those that saw the leaks what are you thinking so far?

The articles, amendments and footnotes are pretty cool, articles and amendments more so than footnotes.

Navigator, Admiral and Navigator seen to be the "auto-included" heroes for me, with the Ballon-Edrinmaster and the Codewright being considerations for some lists as well.

Our skyports look really interesting, Nar, Mhornar, Thryng and Zon look pretty strong. Urbaz looks less shiny, but not bad. Zilfin is the one that look the weakest to me.

The Ironclad+riggers+thunderers death star and the frigate+wardens look to be the most obvious combinations. Maybe using a little bit of both can make a interesting mixed list.

[Rachmani]

Urbaz with two articles is interesting, too. Anti Deathstar & 4+ rally ain‘t bad.

[Grungnisson]

I appreciate the improvements. The damage increases are not big, but hopefully will add up. The boats are more durable and probably gained on utility as well. Some of the more convoluted and frustrating rules have been either simplified or ditched.

Overall, it is an improvement. However...

There are still some misses, some of them rather big, in my opinion. Skyriggers needed to go up to 3 Wounds and/or get a Save bump. They still can only be reinforced to max 9 and even that, conditionally, when taken as a battleline. Speaking of which, battleline options are worse. The Arkanaut tax got worse. And special weapons are still a mess. They should have been brave for once and make a call, one specialist weapon per 10/5/3, just buff the sh** out of them individually, so that they're worth taking.

There's still a lot of text that has been printed for no reason. No one will ever take any of the Move extending enhancements, they can't compete with other options.

But I'm really curious to see how it'll play. This would have been a fabulous 2.0 book, and even 3.0 at the beginning of the edition. At this point in time? It's an improvement, sure, but I feel like some other armies up until this point, got much, much better treatment. But we'll see, I'd love to be wrong on that.

[Rachmani]

Looks „good enough“, and so fare all of the „good enough“ books turned out better than initially thought.

[Azamar]

I’m a little sad that Thryng lost the duardin coalition rules but other than that I like most of what I see. I’m really pleased the frigate now has a role that sets it apart from the other ships- don’t know if it’ll be any good but it looks fun.

[Baron Klatz]

Just hope the 4+ Rally stays. Saw some people a little upset about it and that it should get needed like the StD had theirs nerfed before release but they have way more dangerous stuff than the balloon warriors so I think will work out well for Kharadron to keep but still stay balanced.

Otherwise looking like a great update to jump in with. Good mix of new options, nothing too spammy like the old keepaway tactics and nothing crazy so the faction can play nicer with the new seasons making their units and strategies go up and down.

[Arzalyn]

1 hour ago, Grungnisson said:

There are still some misses, some of them rather big, in my opinion. Skyriggers needed to go up to 3 Wounds and/or get a Save bump. They still can only be reinforced to max 9 and even that, conditionally, when taken as a battleline. Speaking of which, battleline options are worse. The Arkanaut tax got worse. And special weapons are still a mess. They should have been brave for once and make a call, one specialist weapon per 10/5/3, just buff the sh** out of them individually, so that they're worth taking.

There's still a lot of text that has been printed for no reason. No one will ever take any of the Move extending enhancements, they can't compete with other options.

Yeah the Riggers/wardens still being 2 wounds each really stinks... They seen to finally been able to make them different from each other, but they are really expensive wounds per points wise.

How our battelines options got worse exactly? You mean in their warscrolls or in the options? Because in the options I think they were improved. We got the same from the previous book (Zilfin, Zon, Nar and Urbaz kept theirs), improved the riggers as now you just have to have the master on the list rather than as the general and made Thunderers and Gunhaulers available with the command trait (which is pretty good as it is a free cp for those units).

On the enchantments I can see taking the move one on the frigate, but mostly because the other frigate options are really bad (half only do something when it dies and the other one only work on flying units).

[Grungnisson]

20 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Just hope the 4+ Rally stays.

It has to. Arkanauts are still super fragile and we can't run them in horde numbers, so that's the only way of keeping them on the objectives somewhat reliably.

[Grungnisson]

13 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

 

How our battelines options got worse exactly? You mean in their warscrolls or in the options?

Could be just my personal preference, but sure, you needed an Endrinmaster as general, but that would unlock two units as battleline, now it's just one, and there are far more attractive command traits that you'll have to sacrifice now to unlock Thunderers.

[Rachmani]

Barak Nar still gets battleline thunderers.

Many other skyports get something, too. 
So, all in all, our Battlelines will heavily depend on the type of army we will want to play.

[Grungnisson]

15 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

Barak Nar still gets battleline thunderers.

Many other skyports get something, too. 
So, all in all, our Battlelines will heavily depend on the type of army we will want to play.

Yep, you're right. Missed that on the Pitched Battle Profiles page.

[Beliman]

There are a lot of interesting plays that can be customized to accomplish diferent things. A frigatte charging with 6 balloonboys will be good in all skyports, but it will punch harder in a Zon or Brokk in Barak-Nar. Skywardens are good without any buffs, but the innate -2 rend (gun and weapon) from riggers aregood for High Armor targets (we can't improve our melee  rend), and gain a lot if they are buffed with hit/wound/attack buffs. Btw, Skywardens have 12" pistols! Uee!!

Frigatte with malefic mine, charging with a Tuskhelmet Hero can do some mw on a charge: 8 dice with a roll of 4+, an average of 10 dice with a roll of 4+, and if the enemy unit can fly, you could still do 1D3 or 1D6 mw with the mines. Even if we don't want to use Tuskhelmet, there are some "budget" options like Bjorgen fumes to do some mw too.

Our ranged damage profiles seems to be a bit meh, even if we stack Rend. 18" for Thunderes with riffles with that 4+ to wound is not as threatening as we wanted. Special weapon Thunderers look a lot better and are easier to stack buffs. But with some support, a Blob of 15 Battleline Thunderers (Ex-Grundstock trait) with a free 4+ rally are starting to be an annoying unit. With Urbaz and that +1 To Wount (Article) or Thryng with the prayer for a bunch of mortal wounds, they are going to be a real threat.

Btw, our Codewright attacks with a Battletome! LOL!

There are some things that I don't like too. I don't know if there is more than what I see with all this "+2 Move", maybe we could end with 24" move characteristic and abuse Bomb Racks (while we listen Ride of the Valkyres)? It feels weird.

I'm still diggesting all the rules, there is a lot of unpack. I need to play a few games ASAP!

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Beliman

[Mnch]

i will enjoy playing 2-3 khemist and 15 thunderers with 3 morters and 3 canons. Im thinking in try 2-3 navigators too

[Grungnisson]

11 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Thunderes with riffles with that 4+ to wound is not as threatening as we wanted.

 

With the loss of the Triumphs, they should really have gone up to 3+, 3+.

And Arkanauts need an extra melee attack.

Plus Skyriggers on 3 Wounds each, and we're good to go. That would be the three changes here that would make me stop grumbling, I think.

 

But overall, I think it's going to be really hard to tell, without playing. There aren't any stand out warscrolls, there are lots and lots of incremental little upgrades across the board and we'll have to wait and see what they will add up to. It's still going to be a technical book, you'll have to look for synergies and combos and we'll be paying hard for any mistakes. But there is also a little bit more resiliency built in this time round (mind you, all other books got upgraded just the same and some by far more), so maybe it won't at least be win big or lose big in two rounds.

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Grungnisson said:

With the loss of the Triumphs, they should really have gone up to 3+, 3+.

And Arkanauts need an extra melee attack.

Plus Skyriggers on 3 Wounds each, and we're good to go. That would be the three changes here that would make me stop grumbling, I think.

That would help alot!! We only have "attack-first" as our main defensive mechanic for our balloonboys.

Btw, I'm not sure about our Ironclad. It can't be buffed with a Khemist/Admiral ammunition, Thryng prayer can only target Arkos and Thunderers, and it  needs All out Attack with all that 4+ to Hit. The other ships have the same problem but they don't cost 500p and they have some utility tricks.

[Grungnisson]

24 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Btw, I'm not sure about our Ironclad. It can't be buffed with a Khemist/Admiral ammunition, 

Admiral on board and making it a flagship for A-o-A free of charge once per turn? Although then it is competing with the warscroll +1 attack one.

Saying that, Trust To Your Guns amendment with that +1 attack on your Shell shots can be impactful. It's definitely one of those rules that in the previous book would have been once per battle.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Grungnisson

[Lord Veshnakar]

3 hours ago, Mnch said:

i will enjoy playing 2-3 khemist and 15 thunderers with 3 morters and 3 canons. Im thinking in try 2-3 navigators too

I was excited about multiple navigators at first too, but then I realised their "read the winds" ability says "In your hero phase, 1 friendly unit that can use this ability will read the winds."

Essentially meaning regardless of how many you have you can only read the winds with one of them. Still an amazing and fun ability though!

[Mnch]

they were too specific with that "1 unit with this ability", could we spect that the khemist stack dont need a faq?

[Beliman]

3 hours ago, Mnch said:

they were too specific with that "1 unit with this ability", could we spect that the khemist stack dont need a faq?

Not sure if Rend-stacking is going to be a problem:

1. You need to disembark
2. You can only buff ranged weapons from Skyfarer units, and the best ones are Grundstock Thunderers.
3. If you want a blob of 15m you need to be Barak-Nar or use Ex-Grundstock trait.
4. if you want to High Fly with 15 Thunderes and a khemist you need: 1 Footnote and 2CPs. And you still need an Ex-Grundstock or another CP to make them hit better, because they don't have a high quality profile and 18" range.
5. Only usable in your shooting phase, no buffe'd Unleash Hell
6. Not sure if -2rend (Admiral+khemist) and a Thryng's prayer will be better or worst than 4 khemist. Or even a Purple Sun! Anyone has done some maths with buff-stacking abilities?

I don't know, what I'm missing? 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Beliman

[Flippy]

46 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Not sure if Rend-stacking is going to be a problem:

I don't think so.

48 minutes ago, Beliman said:

High fly with 15 Thunderes and a khemist means: 1 Footnote and 2CPs. And you still need an Ex-Grundstock or another CP to make them hit better, because they don't have a high quality profile.

I also think that we have to actually move the boats now and not resort to Fly High as a default delivery method. The regular movement now also has the advantage of bomb racks that seem really good to me - and a reason alone to seriously consider move-enhancing elements for the ships.

Currently, for the 1000 points game I think of Barak-Zon: Frigate, 2 x 3 Skywardens, 1 x 10 Thunderers, Khemist and Endrinmaster or Navigator. You can start with the Thunderers and heroes embarked, move the ship, combat land the Thunderers + Khemist, immediately embark the Skywardens and now you have a solid & durable shooting unit in a good spot (on objective, preferably) and a powerful assault frigate. I'm not sure if the new book is actually stronger, but it definitely allows for some fun. 

[Mordeus]

I have a question regarding the endless spell aptitude. When it says the bearer doesn't control it does it mean that it counts as wild and the opponent can also control it?

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Flippy said:

I also think that we have to actually move the boats now and not resort to Fly High as a default delivery method. The regular movement now also has the advantage of bomb racks that seem really good to me - and a reason alone to seriously consider move-enhancing elements for the ships.

Completely agree!

There is a downside because we can't run and shot with the embarked units, even if we use a run&shoot abilities for skyvessels (e.g: Admiral). But I really don't care because that's how the game is supposed to play and I still have a "panic button" to Fly High! Best of both worlds!

45 minutes ago, Mordeus said:

I have a question regarding the endless spell aptitude. When it says the bearer doesn't control it does it mean that it counts as wild and the opponent can also control it?

Yes! But remember that you are going to summon the Endless and still make the first move. It can backfire of course because they have big bases, but that's no diferent than how we play now.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Beliman

[Rachmani]

I‘m baffled, that the thunderer rifles are still on 4+ wound >.<

Also, I agree on both the Arkanauts & some sort of Defense on the balloners. Although I think I‘d prefer 3+ to 3 wounds, from a lore perspective. They aren‘t paladin size.

[Flippy]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:08 PM, Grungnisson said:

There's still a lot of text that has been printed for no reason. No one will ever take any of the Move extending enhancements, they can't compete with other options.

But the other options for Frigate are all meh and now the movement has a real purpose - you want this ship to fly over enemies and make a charge.