AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Boar]

1 hour ago, Fert said:

Q: Some abilities can be used ‘instead of a normal move’. Can I use these abilities if the unit is not allowed to make a normal move (e.g. when it is within 3" of an enemy unit)?

A: No.

So, no more pulling endrinriggers out of combat?  No more Zilfin hero phase move with them either?  We have new errata.. maybe new faq coming, as the previous faq clarified and let us do this...

Hitching and fly high can explicitly trigger from retreat (look up in errata), so you still can retreat them from combat that way

[Fert]

6 hours ago, Boar said:

Hitching and fly high can explicitly trigger from retreat (look up in errata), so you still can retreat them from combat that way

But no hero phase Zilfin move?

[Beliman]

No Hitching on Hero Phase (Zilfin footnote) nor before the first battleround (Beast-Alpha Pack). 

Meh, a bit sad.

[Dongilles]

I dont see why you cannot hitch during the hero fase. Whenever you fly high you can hitch along, as long as you have not moved that phase.

 

—edit—

okay, you cannot hitch during the hero phase anymore.

this was a 2.0 faq 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Dongilles

[cofaxest]

11 minutes ago, Dongilles said:

I dont see why you cannot hitch during the hero fase. Whenever you fly high you can hitch along, as long as you have not moved that phase.

 

 

If this  model is wholly within 6" of a friendly SKYVESSEL immediately before the SKYVESSEL uses its FlyHigh ability ,you can say that this model will hitch a lift instead of making a normal move. 
If you can't do normal move - you can't hitch. This basically destroys skyriggers and wardens. Can't see why KO should take them anymore vs Thunderers/Arco.

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by cofaxest

[Boar]

25 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

If you can't do normal move - you can't hitch. This basically destroys skyriggers and wardens. Can't see why KO should take them anymore vs Thunderers/Arco.

Not everyone plays Zilfin you know.

[cofaxest]

1 hour ago, Boar said:

Not everyone plays Zilfin you know.

And not every Lumineth take Teclis in their one drop lists.

[Beliman]

3 hours ago, Boar said:

Not everyone plays Zilfin you know.

We can use Alpha-Beast Pack with other Baraks (just an small tax of taking two Behemoths)!

I still think that Endrinriggers are going to be good, even we could see some 6 man Skywardens doing some work.

[stratigo]

9 hours ago, cofaxest said:

And not every Lumineth take Teclis in their one drop lists.

I mean, teclis is points heavy enough that competitive LRL are going to look for all the ways to replace him XD

[Gauche]

On 7/3/2021 at 7:54 AM, stratigo said:

I want to elaborate on this.

 

Rend of any level is actually kind of devalued in the game right now, it's dramatically easy to have good save units stacking saves by three, and rend three is too rare for any army in the game at all to actually rely on it.

My reasoning for seeing Rend as valuable isn't because you need so much Rend to be able to deal with a 1+ or 0+ Save, you need to be able to punch through something else once you bait AoD. SBGL are my go to example as they're also very popular right now, almost every build from them will put at least three units on the table with a native 3+. Without Rend that's very scary since they can AoD one, put one in Cover, and maybe an Artifact/Mystic Shield on a third.

With Rend and some MSU (easy for KO) you can put shots into something and try to get them to stack one of those effects, then pick on the vulnerable unit with the rest of your army. That's where our Rend 1 gets value in my games thus far. If an opponent takes fewer of those units, maybe two or even one, I find it best to just ignore them because dumping shots into a 2+ Save is a losing battle.

In my lists that's why I've been taking Irondrakes + Runelord, the Rend 2 opens up some more options. I've found that the threat of a higher Rend allows me more "control" over what my opponent stacks. As long as I can pick up some targets I can screen and figure out the remaining threats, so far. I'm also playing weird KO lists compared to most people though so that might be coloring my perception.

[Btimmy]

3 minutes ago, Gauche said:

In my lists that's why I've been taking Irondrakes + Runelord, the Rend 2 opens up some more options. I've found that the threat of a higher Rend allows me more "control" over what my opponent stacks. As long as I can pick up some targets I can screen and figure out the remaining threats, so far. I'm also playing weird KO lists compared to most people though so that might be coloring my perception.

How have these been doing for you? What has been holding me back is you can only do 10 Irondrakes and the runelord because 20 Irondrakes and RL puts you over ally point cap. I don't want to have to use the specific skyport because I think Zilfen and Mhornar are just too good to give up.  

[Gauche]

1 hour ago, Btimmy said:

How have these been doing for you? What has been holding me back is you can only do 10 Irondrakes and the runelord because 20 Irondrakes and RL puts you over ally point cap. I don't want to have to use the specific skyport because I think Zilfen and Mhornar are just too good to give up.  

They've been a mixed bag. I do play Thryng since Honour the Gods, Just in Case and Chronicle of Grudges are great benefits too (RIP Artifact/Trait though). On one hand they're a massive deterrent, one of the best Unleash ****** in the game and putting bodies on the table really helps with one of KOs biggest weaknesses. On the other hand they absolutely require a screen at all times and if you're made to go first they do very little on top of always being slow. With Rend 2 they're basically the most efficient shooting damage option we can get and I've had a great time with my Runelord and Arcane Tome.

From watching content and so on I seem to play KO very differently than most (I did not play in 2.0). I don't go all in on Turn 1, throwing everything I can into the opponent's Deployment Zone. The Irondrakes fit my playstyle a bit better because they're a turret whereas the rest of my army is mostly skirmishers, I also play Arkanauts for all my Battleline and they're a great screen for their cost.

For me I think they'll end up being kind of a meta call. If the new SCE, SBGL, and other durable armies are the thing to beat then they're amazing. Without that they do lose some luster.

 

[stratigo]

I was interested in thryng before they thoughtlessly broke it. Imma wait to see if they fix it again or do the dwarf combo book

 

For my money, the most competitive build probably remains the same as it used to be, the zilfin drop list.

[Btimmy]

12 minutes ago, Gauche said:

On one hand they're a massive deterrent, one of the best Unleash ****** in the game.

They don't get to do double shots though right, at least not if they are the unit being charged. Other than that yeah I like their stat-line, I just wish I could fit 20 + a RL in the ally slot. 

 

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, Gauche said:

They've been a mixed bag. I do play Thryng since Honour the Gods, Just in Case and Chronicle of Grudges are great benefits too (RIP Artifact/Trait though). On one hand they're a massive deterrent, one of the best Unleash ****** in the game and putting bodies on the table really helps with one of KOs biggest weaknesses. On the other hand they absolutely require a screen at all times and if you're made to go first they do very little on top of always being slow. With Rend 2 they're basically the most efficient shooting damage option we can get and I've had a great time with my Runelord and Arcane Tome.

From watching content and so on I seem to play KO very differently than most (I did not play in 2.0). I don't go all in on Turn 1, throwing everything I can into the opponent's Deployment Zone. The Irondrakes fit my playstyle a bit better because they're a turret whereas the rest of my army is mostly skirmishers, I also play Arkanauts for all my Battleline and they're a great screen for their cost.

For me I think they'll end up being kind of a meta call. If the new SCE, SBGL, and other durable armies are the thing to beat then they're amazing. Without that they do lose some luster.

 

I just read your most recent batrep and I think you missed where the FAQ broke thryng. The coalition units no longer gain the Thryng keyword, meaning they don't benefit from the grudges nor can they activatehonor the gods.

 

It is supremely annoying.

[Badlander86]

I'm also at a loss with the new rules for leaving a Garrison. Based on what I read, a unit can only leave a garrison at the end of the movement phase but that's for garrison-specific rules. Add that to the restrictions of units joining or leaving a Flying Transport which states that you can't join or leave a Skyvessel if it has moved in the same phase which has not be errata'ed has left the guys in my shop to come to the conclusion that I can never unload my skyfarers unless I basically forfeit a move with my Skyvessel, making once flexible plays like There's only a Breeze basically redundant.

It's clear that Duardin are low on the list of priorities this edition, what with focus on Monsters and every flavor of Aelf, but this seems like them basically forcing us to play specific skyports like Barak Nar or Urbaz with heavy restrictions on listbuilding. I was never a great player before but right now, I can tell that its going to be harder to even hope for a win with all these very obvious un-synergistic rules and errata. They don't want people complaining about KO being top-tier. My only regret was not cheesing as hard as everyone else apparently was when KO was top-tier because now I feel I was being too nice.

[stratigo]

20 minutes ago, Badlander86 said:

I'm also at a loss with the new rules for leaving a Garrison. Based on what I read, a unit can only leave a garrison at the end of the movement phase but that's for garrison-specific rules. Add that to the restrictions of units joining or leaving a Flying Transport which states that you can't join or leave a Skyvessel if it has moved in the same phase which has not be errata'ed has left the guys in my shop to come to the conclusion that I can never unload my skyfarers unless I basically forfeit a move with my Skyvessel, making once flexible plays like There's only a Breeze basically redundant.

It's clear that Duardin are low on the list of priorities this edition, what with focus on Monsters and every flavor of Aelf, but this seems like them basically forcing us to play specific skyports like Barak Nar or Urbaz with heavy restrictions on listbuilding. I was never a great player before but right now, I can tell that its going to be harder to even hope for a win with all these very obvious un-synergistic rules and errata. They don't want people complaining about KO being top-tier. My only regret was not cheesing as hard as everyone else apparently was when KO was top-tier because now I feel I was being too nice.

so far, the reading is that the specific wording on our transports overrides the garrison core rules meaning we still do our own thing with garrisons. 

 

But it would have been nice for a FAQ clarification

[Badlander86]

5 minutes ago, stratigo said:

so far, the reading is that the specific wording on our transports overrides the garrison core rules meaning we still do our own thing with garrisons. 

 

But it would have been nice for a FAQ clarification

How would you declare it?

 

If say I do a Cunning Fleetmaster or Alpha Beast Pack "free" move that is before the start of the game and after both armies have set up, I move my Ironclad up 10", in the movement phase I declare my guys in the boat are getting out and can move out 6" within the boat, and the boat can move as per normal?  Because I know some guys are going to defer to the Core Rules on this because Flying Transport does not mention how and when you can leave a Garrison since that was referenced from the previous Edition's Core Rules.

And let's not get started with the FAQ. After basically killing Warscroll battalions, instead of clarifying how one drops could work with Core Battalions, the FAQ still keeps Warscroll Battalions in the text to confuse players even more. 

And how about Endrinworks? If I play Urbaz, but I don't want to be stuck with a Breath of Morgrim endrinwork, can I bring a Command Entourage to grant me another enhancement? Problem is, Endrinworks or Mount-traits don't fall under Enhancements so, its probably a no. Yet, none of this was addressed.

If it sound like I'm salty, maybe it is, but what gets my goat is the whole thing about AoS 3.0 being more clear in terms of rules. Maybe for 80% of other Battletomes, none of these issues matter because Garrison doesn't play a huge deal in their playstyle. 

[stratigo]

no where does flying transport say "refer back to the core rules"

 

Here's the relevant part "Units cannot join or leave this model’s garrison if it has made a move or flown high in the same phase (they can join or leave before it does so)."

 

So, as detailed by the warscroll, they can join or leave before the model moves or flies high in the same phase.

[Badlander86]

50 minutes ago, stratigo said:

no where does flying transport say "refer back to the core rules"

 

Here's the relevant part "Units cannot join or leave this model’s garrison if it has made a move or flown high in the same phase (they can join or leave before it does so)."

 

So, as detailed by the warscroll, they can join or leave before the model moves or flies high in the same phase.

At any point in the movement phase then? As long as its before we do anything with the boat? And the rules for guys coming out of garrison are treated as having moved for the phase? The issue is the rules for garrison have been retroactively changed, as have triumphs, so what applies and what doesn't is up for debate. See the wordings for 2.0 and 3.0.

Not trying to be negative here but I have a lot of Rules Lawyers in my LGS who are going to use the word Garrison and link it to the Core Rules since Flying Transport does not give timing on the action. Rather than be called out as cheating, I'd best get opinions from people who know better.

 

 

[stratigo]

11 minutes ago, Badlander86 said:

At any point in the movement phase then? As long as its before we do anything with the boat? And the rules for guys coming out of garrison are treated as having moved for the phase? The issue is the rules for garrison have been retroactively changed, as have triumphs, so what applies and what doesn't is up for debate. See the wordings for 2.0 and 3.0.

Not trying to be negative here but I have a lot of Rules Lawyers in my LGS who are going to use the word Garrison and link it to the Core Rules since Flying Transport does not give timing on the action. Rather than be called out as cheating, I'd best get opinions from people who know better.

 

 

Tell them they are dicks, battletome rules override generic rules. and if they are pissy enough about it, don't play them. 

[Badlander86]

In other news, Warscroll Builder on the Warhammer Community Page is updated. Looks alright but doesn't give indications of list-legality. Some weird stats like Endrinmaster on Dirigible having 6 wounds, etc. Also, Dagnai Holdenstock is still selectable as a Leader though he was not included in the GHB 2021 points list. Not sure how that works.

[Beliman]

7 hours ago, stratigo said:

For my money, the most competitive build probably remains the same as it used to be, the zilfin drop list.

I have two games with one-drop list Zilfin and I'm really struggling with a Zilfin Alpha-list. Even with my full buffed Ironclad, I'm doing a lot less dmg than I expected even If I'm missing a lot less shoots.

I'm switching to a less alpha-lists now. They are a bit more fun and I can play for objectives unless the enemy uses some type of 3+save monster. 

I'm using the Great Sky Cannon to switch between -1 and -2. With 30" range and some mindgames (Inspire Thunderers and make it clear that you are going for a big shoot to try to bait enemies AoD and then AoA Ironclad), I can put some wounds on other things that are not overbuffed.

We have a lot of buffs to manage: +1hit, +1 wound, re-rolls 1 to hit, re-rolls 1 to wound. And some of them can be stacked (Khemist+AoA+Triumph, Khemist+Triumph+OnMyMark, etc...). I need more games to manage them because I'm playing really poorly.

Fly High is still one of the best things that we have, but I need to kill some units in the first turn or I will run out of space really fast.

Anyone tryied Barak-Zon with Skywardens? Another source of high quality rend -1 attacks without using any CP seems really awesome in my book. I don't know why but eat CPs like chips.

[stratigo]

9 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I have two games with one-drop list Zilfin and I'm really struggling with a Zilfin Alpha-list. Even with my full buffed Ironclad, I'm doing a lot less dmg than I expected even If I'm missing a lot less shoots.

I'm switching to a less alpha-lists now. They are a bit more fun and I can play for objectives unless the enemy uses some type of 3+save monster. 

I'm using the Great Sky Cannon to switch between -1 and -2. With 30" range and some mindgames (Inspire Thunderers and make it clear that you are going for a big shoot to try to bait enemies AoD and then AoA Ironclad), I can put some wounds on other things that are not overbuffed.

We have a lot of buffs to manage: +1hit, +1 wound, re-rolls 1 to hit, re-rolls 1 to wound. And some of them can be stacked (Khemist+AoA+Triumph, Khemist+Triumph+OnMyMark, etc...). I need more games to manage them because I'm playing really poorly.

Fly High is still one of the best things that we have, but I need to kill some units in the first turn or I will run out of space really fast.

Anyone tryied Barak-Zon with Skywardens? Another source of high quality rend -1 attacks without using any CP seems really awesome in my book. I don't know why but eat CPs like chips.

I think a 4 drop list is superior to a 1 drop. You want that extra enhancement

[Beliman]

1 minute ago, stratigo said:

I think a 4 drop list is superior to a 1 drop. You want that extra enhancement

Wich enhancements do you think are the best ones? And how many do you think we need?

I used 2 enhancements: Staff of Ocular Optimisation and  Spell in the Bottle (Zilfin list with a Collector Khemist in a one big Battle Regiment).