baiardo Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, jhamslam said: It doesnt take a lot of data or a genius to know that a 60 point unit that be battle-line, screen and a MW spammer with free teleports is the most broken nonsense ever. Coupled with a 320 MW nuke monster with a 4 up FNP. But hey Ben Johnson and his design team apparently think there isnt enough data to nerf seraphon yet. Haha, my face was priceless when I learned they cost 60points and I instantly thought what can I play for 70pts, look at you castigators! Edited March 15, 2021 by baiardo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erdemo86 Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 Do we have any Infos about the new Hero Gardus Steel Soul? Warscroll? Release date? hope he will be useful, stormcast would really need a good support hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baiardo Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Erdemo86 said: Do we have any Infos about the new Hero Gardus Steel Soul? Warscroll? Release date? hope he will be useful, stormcast would really need a good support hero. I hope for a focused combat hero. Stormcast have a plenty of support heroes, so we need much points to play them and if they die we are in troubles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 (edited) On 3/15/2021 at 3:38 AM, FattBooM666 said: Yep i totally get that, im just comparing when only having one unit of 9x longstrikes with no batallion. The damage output compared to 9x with the vanguard, its 100% more shots. Say in the best worlds you have including t1 24" you have a total of 90 shots during 5 turns if alive. And in vanguard you have 180 shots. If he gives t1 and i choose to be passive not dropping down, and i aim for the double t2-t3 i have lost 36 shots so i am down to 144 shots but they are alive, and i have another shot at the double. Instead of risking getting double t1-t2. (Im only comparing what they do in shooting damange and not adding in evocators or whatever in the non vanguard but you get the idea) That is where my headspace is right now, aim for a double either t1 to t2 or t2 to t3. (probably needs to move up some units just to grab early points ofc but try minimize dmg) Pinks might be troublesome with 50 wounds but as long as the flamers die first, LoC after that, then picking out the other characters. I can totally understand why the incantor is in there for the dispell, but hey i do have a spellshield right? Why are you only considering the amount of shots you can put out? The problem with the Vanguard list is that you dont need that extra Longstrike shooting to win games where Longstrikes would win you the game anyway. You could instead bring a proper melee hammer unit (Evocators, Dracoths) to help you win against matchups where Longstrikes alone are not enough as well as different support heroes to improve your consistency. How does a vanguard list play objectives when it gets tied down by idoneth eel spam round 1? How do you handle Tzeentch and Seraphon teleporting shooting into range while swarming objectives with trash bodies? How do you deal with armies that have ways to mitigate your shooting damage? The Vanguard list is a fun gimmick but it's all-in on shooting and that is not a good way to reliably go 5-0 at a tournament. This is why I think Anvilstrike is still the best Stormcast list - it's more well-rounded and has virtually no bad matchups if you play it correctly. Regarding spellshield... I think a +0 unbind is pretty much worthless. Edited March 16, 2021 by PJetski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 On another topic, GMG nails the problem with Stormcast 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baiardo Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 @PJetskiwhat's your current anvilstrike list?☺️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FattBooM666 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 2 hours ago, PJetski said: Why are you only considering the amount of shots you can put out? The problem with the Vanguard list is that you dont need that extra Longstrike shooting to win games where Longstrikes would win you the game anyway. You could instead bring a proper melee hammer unit (Evocators, Dracoths) to help you win against matchups where Longstrikes alone are not enough as well as different support heroes to improve your consistency. How does a vanguard list play objectives when it gets tied down by idoneth eel spam round 1? How do you handle Tzeentch and Seraphon teleporting shooting into range while swarming objectives with trash bodies? How do you deal with armies that have ways to mitigate your shooting damage? The Vanguard list is a fun gimmick but it's all-in on shooting and that is not a good way to reliably go 5-0 at a tournament. This is why I think Anvilstrike is still the best Stormcast list - it's more well-rounded and has virtually no bad matchups if you play it correctly. Regarding spellshield... I think a +0 unbind is pretty much worthless. I'm counting the shots because it's the list im bringing. I don't really have IDK meta where I live so I'm not worried it's more seraphon and DoT. Last time I went it was a a one day tournament I got placed 2nd with this gimmick list. I won vs seraphon (kroak + 5 bodies warriors that take the dmg, he had the 2x bastilladons and everything takes one less dmg) I still managed to take out kroak t1) Another game was changehost board control, lots of pinks, screamers, LoC. Both 1 drop, he took t1 took 4/6 objectives. I dropped down t1 killed LoC and one more hero. I get double all heroes dead and it was game. The game I lost was vs 6" pile DoK with a prime. That game I was to aggressive and needed a double, If I got it I would have placed 1st. The +0 dispell is about what you can choose when you can take 4 artefacts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, baiardo said: @PJetskiwhat's your current anvilstrike list?☺️ Pretty much the same as before. I've been experiment with Dracolines instead of regular Evocators. The extra mobility helps against other shooting armies (tying them down sooner, better board control) but the lower damage compared to foot evocators is noticeable when I need to cut through blocks of wounds (witch aelves, ardboyz, skinks, etc.). Haven't had many opportunities to play games lately because of the coof, so Im not sure how it fares against the newest battletomes. Hardest matchups before were Seraphon and KO but both can be managed if you position properly outside their possible threat ranges. 3 minutes ago, FattBooM666 said: I'm counting the shots because it's the list im bringing. I don't really have IDK meta where I live so I'm not worried it's more seraphon and DoT. Last time I went it was a a one day tournament I got placed 2nd with this gimmick list. I won vs seraphon (kroak + 5 bodies warriors that take the dmg, he had the 2x bastilladons and everything takes one less dmg) I still managed to take out kroak t1) Another game was changehost board control, lots of pinks, screamers, LoC. Both 1 drop, he took t1 took 4/6 objectives. I dropped down t1 killed LoC and one more hero. I get double all heroes dead and it was game. The game I lost was vs 6" pile DoK with a prime. That game I was to aggressive and needed a double, If I got it I would have placed 1st. The +0 dispell is about what you can choose when you can take 4 artefacts. Sounds like your strategy is heavily dependent on getting double turns and shooting your opponent off the board. Ideally you should build a list that works even if you don't get a double turn because you are never guaranteed to get it. It's not a bad list by any means but relying on good matchups and coin flips is not a good way to 5-0 consistently 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 2 hours ago, PJetski said: It's not a bad list by any means but relying on good matchups and coin flips is not a good way to 5-0 consistently Well we re an old book, gotta be extra careful with play and need luck obv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagittarii Orientalis Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) Seraphon already has access to armywide -1 Damage, and the new DoK endless spell gives the same ability to DoK units nearby. Granted, these are only limited number of factions with damage reduction but I still see them as strong competitors in the meta. How much threat do these factions pose to Anvilstrike? Significant enough to force SCE players to find alternatives? Or is Anvilstrike still the ultimate weapon in SCE arsenal? I have been using multiple ballistas instead of raptors because of the emergence of -1 Damage lists. Unfortunately, I was not able to play enough games test it due to Covid-19. I would be happy to hear comments from more experienced players. Edited March 17, 2021 by Sagittarii Orientalis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said: Seraphon already has access to armywide -1 Damage, and the new DoK endless spell gives the same ability to DoK units nearby. Granted, these are only limited number of factions with damage reduction but I still see them as strong competitors in the meta. How much threat do these factions pose to Anvilstrike? Significant enough to force SCE players to find alternatives? Or is Anvilstrike still the ultimate weapon in SCE arsenal? I have been using multiple ballistas instead of raptors because of the emergence of -1 Damage lists. Unfortunately, I was not able to play enough games test it due to Covid-19. I would be happy to hear comments from more experienced players. I am not the anvilstrike expert here, but my feeling is that the real threat to it is not the -1D armies (Coalesced Seraphon is not that much present in competitive play and DoK armies for the moment are not spending the points for the heart) but the number of armies with teleportation / super high mobility AND shooting, who can simply deploy outside the range of the raptors and kill them in their turn. Sure, you can have the raptors in the sky but these armies have generally enough threats thtat the 9 shots you get when you come down won't be enough to neutralise them all and even a light amount of retaliation will decimate your raptors. EDIT: this doesn't mean that we have many alternatives anyway, mind you. I don't think that ballistas would fare much better Edited March 17, 2021 by Marcvs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagittarii Orientalis Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Marcvs said: I am not the anvilstrike expert here, but my feeling is that the real threat to it is not the -1D armies (Coalesced Seraphon is not that much present in competitive play and DoK armies for the moment are not spending the points for the heart) but the number of armies with teleportation / super high mobility AND shooting, who can simply deploy outside the range of the raptors and kill them in their turn. Sure, you can have the raptors in the sky but these armies have generally enough threats thtat the 9 shots you get when you come down won't be enough to neutralise them all and even a light amount of retaliation will decimate your raptors. EDIT: this doesn't mean that we have many alternatives anyway, mind you. I don't think that ballistas would fare much better I was experimenting with ballistas simply because of the higher number of wounds and durability(if tucked in cover) they bring for similar points compared to raptors. But yes, you make valid points. And whoever decided to include Total Commitment in the handbook for 3 years should be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baiardo Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Celestial VindicatorsLeadersLord-Arcanum on Tauralon (280)- GeneralLord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (210)Lord-Relictor (100)Knight-Heraldor (100)Battleline5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & ShieldUnits4 x Fulminators (440)6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)3 x Aetherwings (40)3 x Aetherwings (40)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 119 Hi, given that I want to test this list after the restriction in my country, the idea behind is that: -LA on dracolines + evo on cats buffed with heraldor/tauralon go and charge the unit most dangerous. -Fulminators and Tauralon go together, the first to receive the buff +1to hit for missile weapons and second wave after La on tauralon, choose them over concussor because I need the most survivable unit since evo on cats are the alpha strike. -Aetherwings to cover countercharge for fuminators or grab objective. -We have 2good mages so we can make something even in our magic phase, in fact I'm a bit tempted to make a room for the comet, -Last I choose celestial vindicators, really good for fulminators in charge, hallowed knight is also good and I could remove an heraldor for a comet..what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 6 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said: Seraphon already has access to armywide -1 Damage, and the new DoK endless spell gives the same ability to DoK units nearby. Granted, these are only limited number of factions with damage reduction but I still see them as strong competitors in the meta. How much threat do these factions pose to Anvilstrike? Significant enough to force SCE players to find alternatives? Or is Anvilstrike still the ultimate weapon in SCE arsenal? I have been using multiple ballistas instead of raptors because of the emergence of -1 Damage lists. Unfortunately, I was not able to play enough games test it due to Covid-19. I would be happy to hear comments from more experienced players. This is one of the reasons I am experimenting with using 20x Judicator instead of 9x Raptor - 40 wounds instead of 18 and their shooting damage doesnt get halved by some armies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baiardo Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 minute ago, PJetski said: This is one of the reasons I am experimenting with using 20x Judicator instead of 9x Raptor - 40 wounds instead of 18 and their shooting damage doesnt get halved by some armies. Absolutely, on paper raptors make more damage and I played them a lot but against seraphon even I started to think judicators are a good alternative for high amount of wounds. My friend play them(seraphon) competitively and raptors didn't make it after 1/2turns of magic and shooting phase 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 31 minutes ago, baiardo said: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Celestial VindicatorsLeadersLord-Arcanum on Tauralon (280)- GeneralLord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (210)Lord-Relictor (100)Knight-Heraldor (100)Battleline5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & ShieldUnits4 x Fulminators (440)6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)3 x Aetherwings (40)3 x Aetherwings (40)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 119 Hi, given that I want to test this list after the restriction in my country, the idea behind is that: -LA on dracolines + evo on cats buffed with heraldor/tauralon go and charge the unit most dangerous. -Fulminators and Tauralon go together, the first to receive the buff +1to hit for missile weapons and second wave after La on tauralon, choose them over concussor because I need the most survivable unit since evo on cats are the alpha strike. -Aetherwings to cover countercharge for fuminators or grab objective. -We have 2good mages so we can make something even in our magic phase, in fact I'm a bit tempted to make a room for the comet, -Last I choose celestial vindicators, really good for fulminators in charge, hallowed knight is also good and I could remove an heraldor for a comet..what do you think? i feel the heraldor is the star for your list, you could even go with 2. 4 fulminators without heraldor are pretty bad but with the heraldor buff they become really really good. Evocats would love that heraldor buff aswel.. im not sure what the relictor is bringing to the table here. He could give 1 buff and be left behind. you could switch him for a lord exorcist with a buff spell. 3 mages working together can be pretty solid. Atm he's being a bit pointless. celestial vindicators are solid in this list 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 28 minutes ago, PJetski said: This is one of the reasons I am experimenting with using 20x Judicator instead of 9x Raptor - 40 wounds instead of 18 and their shooting damage doesnt get halved by some armies. yeah this is the reason om playing with 20 xbows for the last couple of weeks. But i do really miss that -2 rend. Bow juds are cool but that damage output is even worse then xbows. Range is better tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baiardo Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Juicy said: i feel the heraldor is the star for your list, you could even go with 2. 4 fulminators without heraldor are pretty bad but with the heraldor buff they become really really good. Evocats would love that heraldor buff aswel.. im not sure what the relictor is bringing to the table here. He could give 1 buff and be left behind. you could switch him for a lord exorcist with a buff spell. 3 mages working together can be pretty solid. Atm he's being a bit pointless. celestial vindicators are solid in this list Haha, I thought he could help me with the fulminators, teleport-move-charge but I happily move in an exorcist!thank you for the advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) On 3/14/2021 at 4:24 PM, Marcvs said: Sure, I had posted it a few pages ago so I didn't want to spam. The tournament has a restriction of "no units of more than 299 pts" so I had to split the libs into two units of 15: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Astral Templars (Stormkeep)Lord-Veritant (110)- General- Command Trait: Dauntless Hunters - Artefact: Godbeast Plate - Prayer: Divine Light15 x Liberators (270)- Warhammer & Shield- 3x Grandhammers15 x Liberators (270)- Warhammer & Shield- 3x Grandhammers6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)9 x Khainite Shadowstalkers (100)- AlliesStormkeep Patrol (130)Total: 1000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 100 / 400Wounds: 93 So, 1k points is not real-AoS but, for those of you who play at this point level, I ended up going 4-1 (defeat was minor) with this list. Some games still need to be played but I will end up between 4th and 6h position out of 74 players. I am pretty baffled by the good result, considering I had taken the list to prove it wouldn't work. Because at 2k points it definitely doesn't, at least in my experience. As a reminder, the rules for the tournament were quite positive for this list: 48x48 boards, some scenarios were modified (more on that below), no units of more than 299 points (so less hard hitting single models who are immune to corner-tagging). For those of you who want to know more about the games: Spoiler Game 1: IDK with 4 sharks in scorched earth (modified, 6 objectives instead of 8 ), minor defeat. The -2 rend on the sharks and the blocking from the boats were the deciding factors, making it very hard to bring my liberators to bear. Even with then, my opponent got the minor with a lucky 11" charge to steal an objective, so, frustrating but not bad. Game 2: SCE with sequitors and raptors in Knife through the Heart (no changes), major victory. I was happy when I saw the list: not many models, not enough output to kill my liberators fast enough. He left something in deepstrike but the smaller board meant I could push them very far from my objective and send my 30 libs to capture and hold his. Game 3: SCE again, with 2x3 evocats and arcanum on cat in Focal Points (no changes), major victory. I was scared by the output of the cats but my opponent made a major mistake in keeping one unit of cats in the sky, meaning he lost 3 combat turns of output and when he had finally cleared my libs I was too far ahead on points. Plus the constant threat of shadowstalkers meant he had to cover all his objectives all the time. Also, best action of the tournament from the Lord Veritant who survived the zaps from 3 cats and the flasks from the arcanum, then proceeded to kill the now-wounded-arcanum and in the next turn charged a single cat at 1 wound on an objective, killed him and scored me the 3 points. Game 4: Nurgle, with a lot of blightkings (but no battalion) in Blade's edge (only 4 objectives and start removing them from t3), major victory. This is the best scenario for this list, and the blightkings did not have rend (no battalion). Divine light MVP keeping a unit of liberators in combat with 10 blightkings alive for 4 rounds. Game 5: FEC, blisterskin with crypt flayers and deadwalkers battalion, in Forcing the Hand (deployment zone slightly changed to be diagonal), major victory. For the first time I did not have the initiative so went hyper-defensive with the liberators all on my objectives, shadowstalkers in a corner, dogs on a side. My opponent buffed the flayers but could only threw one unit at me (the one with run+charge). Killed some liberators, but then attrition and Divine Light (MVP again) kicked in, and dogs and stalkers went stealing objectives in his side (my opponent made a common mistake of developing tunnel vision, with the mobility of the flayers he could have killed my scoring units). Edited March 20, 2021 by Marcvs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos-se Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 I will try your list today with 2*10 Libs due to lack of models. Also I want to put an Incantor inside since I am gonna play against Lumineth. I will put also a unit of Juudicators. How the list does work exactly? It is an aggressive list or you put the units to capture the objectives and you use the gryph-hounds for screens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 25 minutes ago, Thanos-se said: I will try your list today with 2*10 Libs due to lack of models. Also I want to put an Incantor inside since I am gonna play against Lumineth. I will put also a unit of Juudicators. How the list does work exactly? It is an aggressive list or you put the units to capture the objectives and you use the gryph-hounds for screens? Difficult to give a single answer. In general it's more aggressive to do some damage with the big maces and (especially) to limit the opponent's movement and engage them where I want them. I never use the doggos as screens, they hold back objectives and/or steal objectives, they have mobility and I really don't want to lose them. Against lumineth it can be useful to go aggressive if you take first turn (no buffs) and kill as many wardens as you can. Bringing a gryph hound close to give the +3 unbind against sunmetal weapons for th engaged unit is also very useful to reduce their output by a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos-se Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 Thnak you. Since the gryph-hounds can attack and retreat without any casualties it could be a good damage output in a 1K list at the first turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 12 minutes ago, Thanos-se said: Thnak you. Since the gryph-hounds can attack and retreat without any casualties it could be a good damage output in a 1K list at the first turn. Maybe (not really that great an output IMHO) but you have to forego your first strike with the liberators, where the real (albeit small) damage comes from (plus the usefulness of that first pile in) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos-se Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 Units that retreat can move accordindg to their movement characteristic or they must end the movement 3" away from the enemy unit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 32 minutes ago, Thanos-se said: Units that retreat can move accordindg to their movement characteristic or they must end the movement 3" away from the enemy unit? they can move according to their movement characteristic (and can run 1d6 if they want, and they generally do, unless they have retreat + charge) AND they must end their movement 3" away from all enemy units 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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