AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[jhamslam]

3 minutes ago, Horseburner said:

I don't know if this is the right place to post this.

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Stormcast-Eternals-Sequitors-2018

 

Can anyone tell me the exact content of this box?

Yeah it has 10 sequitors. 4 Grandmaces. 4 female bodies, 6 male. Only way you can get the Prime with the Redemption Cache modeled on her.

 

[Horseburner]

48 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Yeah it has 10 sequitors. 4 Grandmaces. 4 female bodies, 6 male. Only way you can get the Prime with the Redemption Cache modeled on her.

 

Many thanks! Exactly what I wanted to know.

[Raffonerd]

11 hours ago, PJetski said:

Deployment is key. You want your dispel scrolls in range of wizards with spells that can threaten your Longstrikes and you want to wait to drop Longstrikes until near the end (but plan ahead so you dont run out of room).

If there is any kind of threat of a turn 1 charge I use a castle deployment. If I don't think my enemy will come that quickly I tend to make sure I deploy Longstrikes within 30" of some kind of useful target. I have a picture here from my last GT (sorry it's blurry) where I was playing against a deepkin Soulscryer list on Duality of Death. You can see the Aetherwings on both flanks ready to intercept the outflank charge, with Liberators on either side just in case. Then I put my Evocators and Longstrikes in the center of that pile, knowing deepkin have no way to pile in and attack again.

Against Slaanesh or FEC I would make sure the Evocators are behind the Liberators, possibly even out of range of a double tap to ensure their safety. Ideally you want to have the Evocators within 3" so they can pile in during the enemy turn, then use the anvils CA to pile them in during the hero phase immediately, but that's only useful if you can be sure that they won't hit your Evocators with their second pile-in. It's fine to lose Aetherwings and Liberators if it means you can fight first with Evocators later.

Against DOK I would put my Evocators further up because they are a slow melee army and can't stop me from fighting first on the charge. 

I'm not sure how to do a formal write-up, but I'm always willing to answer specific questions. I'll go through and compile all my posts from this thread into a single blog post that people can link to (Follow the link: https://shiftingobjectives.blogspot.com/2019/10/anvilstrike-tips-faq-updated-oct-25-2019.html)

I'm assuming you won the side roll. Which is not usually done (50%). Second, the boat near you is set badly. Should be parallel to the long hedge. Third if he happers with scryer left hedge, run with 2 wheels units to objective, charge liberators, shock them to death, pail in with one unit, he will luckily kill half evocators and engage raptors. With it he starts scoring in the middle.  

Why azyros is on the floor??? 

In my opinion i would have set evos and raptor behind 4". In this situation having 6 desolators would have been better, because they wont suffer much rend -2. 

Anyway, in general anvilstrike is pretty easy to use if you understand it. You don't set stuff in air and you set up in order to hit turn one something. Because if not they let you start and if relicotor can't move you are done if they double turn. 

About matchup, i agree on the fact that you suffer hard magic list. I think Tzeench/Sylva (also supposing cities), but never tryed against them cause of they unpopularity. The problem on that is that you can set your list to be better against deepstrike or better against magic. Like me, i had incantors and 1 birds. But you can use 2 birds and  1 incantor depending on the meta you think there is.

Read the report. Congrats first, second I agree in most of the points. Last tournament i had 1 spellweaver and 1 incantor, but it was a bad choice. I should have done 2x incantors. Also the second predatory spell could be very usefull, cause when i've been setting up geminds i had the game. (I let even the opponent the turn to move geminds). That is a game changing stuff.

Places of arcane power is s bit unbalanced. I've lost there against dok cause they won initiative and scored the second time (3 first turn, 4 second turn. Game over).

Edited October 24, 2019 by Raffonerd

[Raffonerd]

Any good list for SCE avoiding anvilstrike list? Like something more Hammers oriented?

[Coolwood]

2 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

I'm assuming you won the side roll. Which is not usually done (50%). Second, the boat near you is set badly. Should be parallel to the long hedge. Third if he happers with scryer left hedge, run with 2 wheels units to objective, charge liberators, shock them to death, pail in with one unit, he will luckily kill half evocators and engage raptors. With it he starts scoring in the middle.  

Why azyros is on the floor??? 

In my opinion i would have set evos and raptor behind 4". In this situation having 6 desolators would have been better, because they wont suffer much rend -2. 

Anyway, in general anvilstrike is pretty easy to use if you understand it. You don't set stuff in air and you set up in order to hit turn one something. Because if not they let you start and if relicotor can't move you are done if they double turn. 

About matchup, i agree on the fact that you suffer hard magic list. I think Tzeench/Sylva (also supposing cities), but never tryed against them cause of they unpopularity. The problem on that is that you can set your list to be better against deepstrike or better against magic. Like me, i had incantors and 1 birds. But you can use 2 birds and  1 incantor depending on the meta you think there is.

Read the report. Congrats first, second I agree in most of the points. Last tournament i had 1 spellweaver and 1 incantor, but it was a bad choice. I should have done 2x incantors. Also the second predatory spell could be very usefull, cause when i've been setting up geminds i had the game. (I let even the opponent the turn to move geminds). That is a game changing stuff.

Places of arcane power is s bit unbalanced. I've lost there against dok cause they won initiative and scored the second time (3 first turn, 4 second turn. Game over).

Tbh I think you are just arguing for the sake of it now. @PJetski has provided very clear explanations of how to use that deployment and the birds to good effect to counter pretty much every scenario and army in the current meta. 

[Raffonerd]

10 minutes ago, Coolwood said:

Tbh I think you are just arguing for the sake of it now. @PJetski has provided very clear explanations of how to use that deployment and the birds to good effect to counter pretty much every scenario and army in the current meta. 

Not arguing. I mostly agree with him. 

Just pointing out that, if you find a good opponent, this list is not so "easy win stuff". Cause it rely on statistical results more then others lists. Like in places of power if you don't get the double turn you cannot win the game with this list. Because you do damage only in your turn and you don't have mass on objectives.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Raffonerd

[PJetski]

5 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

I'm assuming you won the side roll. Which is not usually done (50%). Second, the boat near you is set badly. Should be parallel to the long hedge. Third if he happers with scryer left hedge, run with 2 wheels units to objective, charge liberators, shock them to death, pail in with one unit, he will luckily kill half evocators and engage raptors. With it he starts scoring in the middle.  

Why azyros is on the floor??? 

In my opinion i would have set evos and raptor behind 4". In this situation having 6 desolators would have been better, because they wont suffer much rend -2. 

Anyway, in general anvilstrike is pretty easy to use if you understand it. You don't set stuff in air and you set up in order to hit turn one something. Because if not they let you start and if relicotor can't move you are done if they double turn. 

About matchup, i agree on the fact that you suffer hard magic list. I think Tzeench/Sylva (also supposing cities), but never tryed against them cause of they unpopularity. The problem on that is that you can set your list to be better against deepstrike or better against magic. Like me, i had incantors and 1 birds. But you can use 2 birds and  1 incantor depending on the meta you think there is.

It doesn't really matter what side of the table I'm on, and I'm not sure why you think it does?

I put the Evocators and Raptors so far forward because he put Thralls in reserve instead of eels. He was trying to hit me on the flank with Thralls and come through the front with eels.

Their Rend-2 attacks don't matter because the eels never get to attack anything besides Aetherwings. It seems like you still dont understand how Aetherwings work.

Azyros is on the table because it's Duality of Death and I need a quick hero to contest objectives.

Tzeentch and Sylvaneth are quite easy matchups when you have 2 dispel scrolls in your list.

I disagree that Anvilstrike auto loses to a double turn. With a good defensive deployment your Aetherwings and Liberators are enough screens to weather the storm, and you should be able to kill something important on that first turn. It's all about knowing what your opponent is capable of doing and planning ahead to counter it.

[Raffonerd]

37 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Their Rend-2 attacks don't matter because the eels never get to attack anything besides Aetherwings. It seems like you still dont understand how Aetherwings work.

Maybe i'm missing something then. You are 1" behind lib. If he selects with scryer the liberators and chages them? Ok you can move. You go ahaed of them? They fly above you. If you stay there 1 model would be 1/2" to liberators for sure. So he will kill them before combat e rush into raptos/evos.

[relic456]

Just now, Raffonerd said:

Maybe i'm missing something then. You are 1" behind lib. If he selects with scryer the liberators and chages them? Ok you can move. You go ahaed of them? They fly above you. If you stay there 1 model would be 1/2" to liberators for sure. So he will kill them before combat e rush into raptos/evos.

The goal is to get the Aetherwings within 3" of the eels, since you can't declare a charge if you're within 3" of an enemy model.  If the eels stay at 9.01", the Aetherwings only need a 7 on their 2d6 to deny the eels a charge, which is just about the average result. @PJetski detailed it earlier:

23 hours ago, PJetski said:

• If you roll average (7+) then you can move your Aetherwings within 3" of the enemy unit - now they can't declare a charge at all and spend their combat phase fighting some throwaway birds
• If you roll low (3-6) then move the Aetherwings away from your enemy. If you did this correctly, there should be no units within 12" of the enemy - now they can't declare a charge at all and they spend their combat phase doing nothing.. Consider doing this even if you roll 7+, as you can keep your Aetherwings alive and use them again later.
• If you roll a 2 then move the Aetherwings back towards the Liberators but position in such a way that they can't fit their models between the Aetherwings and the Liberators. They can charge you, but they will spend their combat phase fighting only Aetherwings. 

[Raffonerd]

But they have +3 to charge, so you have to roll at least 7. You are playing coin flip here.

But yes, i didn't got this point. Good to know. A lot good.

8 minutes ago, relic456 said:

The goal is to get the Aetherwings within 3" of the eels, since you can't declare a charge if you're within 3" of an enemy model.  

Edited October 24, 2019 by Raffonerd

[relic456]

Just now, Raffonerd said:

But they have +3 to charge, so you have to roll at least 7. You are playing coin flip here.

How is the eels having +3" charge impact anything?

[Raffonerd]

1 minute ago, relic456 said:

How is the eels having +3" charge impact anything?

Scryer ability 24" range.

[PJetski]

2 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

But they have +3 to charge, so you have to roll at least 7. You are playing coin flip here.

But yes, i didn't got this point. Good to know. A lot good.

It doesn't matter if they have +50 to charge, they cant declare a charge if there is an enemy within 3" or if there are no enemies within 12". Aetherwings allow you to fulfill either of these conditions easily.

[relic456]

3 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

Scryer ability 24" range.

There has to be a language barrier here.  The Scryer ability doesn't come in to play at all.  If the Aetherwings get within 3" of the eels (which are almost 100% likely to deploy 9" away from your screen), they aren't allowed to charge.  While that is a roughly 50% chance, Pjetski detailed how to plan around the possibility of failure as well when you roll lower than a 7.

Rules citation:

Edited October 24, 2019 by relic456

[l1censetochill]

39 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

Scryer ability 24" range.

 

37 minutes ago, relic456 said:

There has to be a language barrier here.  The Scryer ability doesn't come in to play at all.  If the Aetherwings get within 3" of the eels (which are almost 100% likely to deploy 9" away from your screen), they aren't allowed to charge.  While that is a roughly 50% chance, Pjetski detailed how to plan around the possibility of failure as well when you roll lower than a 7.

Yeah, I'm picking up on this too - it's clearly a language barrier issue, which is understandable you consider it's a discussion featuring a bunch of tricky rules jargon. 

@Raffonerd Basically, what they're saying is that the Aetherwings give you two options to block a charge from Eels, and between them they should never be able to get into your Longstrikes in a single turn. You get to move the Aetherwings 2d6 at the beginning of the opponent's Charge phase, so they make the move before the enemy can make any charge moves. The outcomes are either:

1) You roll 2d6, and it's high enough to get the Aetherwings within 3" of the Eels. If the Aetherwings move within 3" of the Eels, the Eels are "pinned" and can't charge anything. They have to wait until the Combat phase to pile in and attack the Aetherwings.

2) You roll 2d6, and it's not enough to get the Aetherwings within 3" of the Eels. In this case, you move them back, closer to the Longstrikes, and either land them more than 12" away from the Eels (so they can't declare any charges, because there aren't any units within 12") or, if that's not possible, land them in a way that ensures that there's not enough room between your screen and the Longstrikes to allow the Eels to fly over the Aetherwings and land in position to hit the Longstrikes.

In basically every battle report or write up I've seen on Anvilstrike, it's emphasized that Aetherwing placement and usage is the #1 key to making the list work - and it's not hard to see why. They're a finesse unit, and their rules are unusual enough that a lot of people won't even understand how they work/why you're allowed to do what you're doing with them. Long story short, I've gotta get practicing!

Edited October 24, 2019 by l1censetochill

[Raffonerd]

Guys, I've understood. If you roll less then 7 it's hard to cope anyway. That's the point. I missed that part in the corebook, but it was not necessary during my tournament .

Because if he rolls let's say 8 + 3 he engages libs and with shock can go throug with pail in. Anyway one can go around this first turn charge in a lot of ways. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Raffonerd

[schwabbele]

45 minutes ago, l1censetochill said:

I've gotta get practicing!

Hehe, me too - my first serious games with this list totally went south due to so many errors I made 😬 good thing Prague gt is feb 2020 , so enough time for me to get better  

[PJetski]

34 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

Guys, I've understood. If you roll less then 7 it's hard to cope anyway. That's the point. I missed that part in the corebook, but it was not necessary during my tournament .

Because if he rolls let's say 8 + 3 he engages libs and with shock can go throug with pail in. Anyway one can go around this first turn charge in a lot of ways. 

It's not, though. If you roll less than 7 you can just move the Aetherwings backwards and he can no longer declare a charge at all because there are no units within 12"

He doesn't even get to roll to charge.

[AdamR]

WRT Anvilstrike - do people not just shoot the (bird)****** out of the Aetherwings? If not, why not?

I know if I was playing against it with my Skyborne Slayers that would be job #1!

[Mark Williams]

1 hour ago, AdamR said:

WRT Anvilstrike - do people not just shoot the (bird)****** out of the Aetherwings? If not, why not?

I know if I was playing against it with my Skyborne Slayers that would be job #1!

This is what I do with my gav bomb.

 I have a unit of crossbow juds and hurricane raptors dropping from the sky. My deployment is as far back and as far away from their army as possible. My first drop is the shooting which I use to kill as many birds as possible. If I get a feeling that I can clear them out and get a charge in as well, I go for it. Otherwise I play a long game and wait for them to feel forced to try to capture objectives.

 I played against an anvilstrike list this way at last years masters and shut them down completely, only losing on a technicality in the last turn. Unfortunately, playing Stormcast, I still have to play a perfect game and make zero mistakes even when I’m a good general.

 I find Pjetski’s confidence in the plan a bit annoying because in my area it’s common to just lose a match randomly to bad luck even with the best strategy. Every now and then, the birds will move 2-3 inches only and eels or whatever just over-run you. And the opponent won’t be thinking too hard about it or trying something tricky with their spacing. You’re playing a low model count, finesse army and that brings with it a certain amount of risk that a tiny mistake will see you wiped out occasionally by turn 2. Don’t act like it doesn’t happen, and if it doesn’t for you don’t act like everyone else will have the same experience, otherwise they are somehow “doing it wrong.” Apart from that I agree with everything you’re saying, and Anvils is definitely the best list we have.

[jhamslam]

I just saw the Bonereaper Ivory Host rules. Every single host's rules seems to be designed for matched play or a specific playstyle in mind with lots of powerful niche abilities.They have one with an army wide Staunch Defender without any general bubble or charge clauses.

 

Seriously, whoever designed the SCE books mustve lazy as hell, it looks like a pitiful RNG collection of abilities compared to the stuff im seeing.

[schwabbele]

14 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Seriously, whoever designed the SCE books mustve lazy as hell, it looks like a pitiful RNG collection of abilities compared to the stuff im seeing.

Sce is 16 months old...  and there are tomes after sce which are even worse . 

[jhamslam]

5 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Sce is 16 months old...  and there are tomes after sce which are even worse . 

Thats actually bad for the game. Like it seems they have two different sets of people designing tomes here. One that puts in conservative abilities and numbers and one that goes full FEC, Slaanesh, Skaven etc 

[Mark Williams]

45 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

I just saw the Bonereaper Ivory Host rules. Every single host's rules seems to be designed for matched play or a specific playstyle in mind with lots of powerful niche abilities.They have one with an army wide Staunch Defender without any general bubble or charge clauses.

 

Seriously, whoever designed the SCE books mustve lazy as hell, it looks like a pitiful RNG collection of abilities compared to the stuff im seeing.

I think it’s driven by sales numbers. They have a rough idea of how many people play what. SCE are very popular and they don’t need help or good rules to sell better. The bone army is new and it needs awesome rules to convince people to buy it. Maybe people who are a little frustrated with their own rules, like us!

[schwabbele]

Lol , no that actually shows that the game is evolving. And we don't even have all 2.0 tomes out. Bad for the game would be , if all were like sce , or if GW isn't trying out new stuff. If you don't like it, switch army for your competitive needs or learn to deal with it.

It is an endless discussion, nothing big will change until all factions have their tome, and even I wouldn't be so sure that we instantly see new SCE tome.