AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Maturin]

So guys, I'll probably have to face a DoK player pretty soon. I dont know what he's going to field, but apparently he's a competitive one. I've never faced DoK. Any advice ?
What should I prioritize, what should I be wary about ?

Cheers!

[Mark Williams]

26 minutes ago, Maturin said:

So guys, I'll probably have to face a DoK player pretty soon. I dont know what he's going to field, but apparently he's a competitive one. I've never faced DoK. Any advice ?
What should I prioritize, what should I be wary about ?

Cheers!

It depends on what list he is taking and what list you are taking. Lately, my core strategy is to try to blow a hole in their main witch block as early as possible. I have an "alpha strike" capable army, and if they give me first turn I usually plow straight into their main block of witches with everything I've got. It could be considered a gamble, but if you can knock out their center, it will help tremendously later in the game after their buffs start compounding. It will also put them on the defensive which is not where they like to be.

[Maturin]

2 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

It depends on what list he is taking and what list you are taking. Lately, my core strategy is to try to blow a hole in their main witch block as early as possible. I have an "alpha strike" capable army, and if they give me first turn I usually plow straight into their main block of witches with everything I've got. It could be considered a gamble, but if you can knock out their center, it will help tremendously later in the game after their buffs start compounding. It will also put them on the defensive which is not where they like to be.

What do you play that gives you a strong alpha strike ? I could play Slayer's with some Longstrikes or go full anvils longstrike for the first time.
I tried the desolators list with the Celestant Prime, and the same one with Stardrake + Prime. It was fun, I got lucky on FallingStars rolls, so I decimated his heroes with a MW rain. Dunno if it will be viable against DOK

[Mark Williams]

1 hour ago, Maturin said:

What do you play that gives you a strong alpha strike ? I could play Slayer's with some Longstrikes or go full anvils longstrike for the first time.
I tried the desolators list with the Celestant Prime, and the same one with Stardrake + Prime. It was fun, I got lucky on FallingStars rolls, so I decimated his heroes with a MW rain. Dunno if it will be viable against DOK

I’m using a gav bomb list.

[Lucur]

Can we moan a bit about how demigryph knights now get a 3+ save, while mighty sigmarite plate only gets a 4+ (except for dracoths. But it's their scales i'm sure )

[Maturin]

4 hours ago, Lucur said:

Can we moan a bit about how demigryph knights now get a 3+ save, while mighty sigmarite plate only gets a 4+ (except for dracoths. But it's their scales i'm sure )

That's because griffin feathers are extra conmfy yet sturdy

[chord]

6 hours ago, Lucur said:

Can we moan a bit about how demigryph knights now get a 3+ save, while mighty sigmarite plate only gets a 4+ (except for dracoths. But it's their scales i'm sure )

Crazy.........

It's a deep state conspiracy against Stormcast. 

[schwabbele]

Btw anyone from here attending Prague Aos GT 2020?

[Maturin]

Would be fun to, but I won't have the time. Maybe next year.

Quuick question, I've never played an Anvil List. Tell me if I'm wrong, but because of how it's worded, Longstrikes do not benefit fro +6" range at the hero phase, right ?

I'm going to play a 1250 poitns game : 9 Longstrikes, 2 aetherwings, 2x5man liberators and don't know yet for the heroes. I'll try to learn what is it that makes this list the ultimate SCE list.

[schwabbele]

They do, they didn’t move in the same turn 🙂 

[Mark Williams]

36 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

They do, they didn’t move in the same turn 🙂 

I realize there isn’t an FAQ on this, but if they ever get around to it, I highly doubt it will work that way, considering the way that it was worded in the previous book, and considering that many similar abilities in other armies don’t work that way either.

Even going by “RAW”, I personally think it’s ambiguous. You could also say that the condition of whether or not you moved yet in that phase is neither yes or no, but “unknown” which would therefore mean you can’t get a definitive answer and thus don’t get the bonus.

[TomParry84]

7 hours ago, Maturin said:

Would be fun to, but I won't have the time. Maybe next year.

Quuick question, I've never played an Anvil List. Tell me if I'm wrong, but because of how it's worded, Longstrikes do not benefit fro +6" range at the hero phase, right ?

I'm going to play a 1250 poitns game : 9 Longstrikes, 2 aetherwings, 2x5man liberators and don't know yet for the heroes. I'll try to learn what is it that makes this list the ultimate SCE list.

I wouldn't say so, I play 24 inch range hero phase, 30 shooting phase.

It's very murky though, you could argue various ways of reading it.

[schwabbele]

There is this faq - not directly addresses this issue I think.

Quote

Q: If I use an ability that allows a unit to do something in the hero phase as if it were a different phase, can I use abilities that could affect it in that phase in the hero phase? For example, if I was allowed to make a shooting attack with a unit in my hero phase as if it were my shooting phase, would an ability that allowed me to make an extra attack with that unit in my shooting phase apply?A: No to both questions. Abilities that state they can only be used or only apply in a certain phase can only be used in that phase and/or their effects will only apply in that phase. So, if an ability says you can use it in your movement phase, it can only be used in your movement phase, or if an ability said it applied in your shooting phase, you can only apply its effects in your shooting phase, and so on.

However longshot doesn't specify shooting phase. 

 

24 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

ou could also say that the condition of whether or not you moved yet in that phase is neither yes or no, but “unknown”

False imho, at the time being ( hero phase ) it is a No, because movement phase didn't happen

@PJetski mentioned something on phase order iirc , but I didn't find any rules on that. - that's the only thing which would make sense to me. 

In the end I would let a TO decide. 

[Raffonerd]

On 10/3/2019 at 12:11 AM, Mark Williams said:

I’m using a gav bomb list.

Best list if you don't fight slanesh.

[Mark Williams]

1 hour ago, schwabbele said:

There is this faq - not directly addresses this issue I think.

However longshot doesn't specify shooting phase. 

 

False imho, at the time being ( hero phase ) it is a No, because movement phase didn't happen

@PJetski mentioned something on phase order iirc , but I didn't find any rules on that. - that's the only thing which would make sense to me. 

In the end I would let a TO decide. 

From a “math” perspective, a variable can be empty or null before it’s decided. You’re assuming that the default state is no, and that there’s only two valid answers. I see your point, and I don’t want to convince you that you’re wrong, rather that there’s an equally valid different way to look at it.

[Mark Williams]

3 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

Best list if you don't fight slanesh.

Haha there’s a lot of lists it doesn’t work against.

[schwabbele]

13 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

You’re assuming that the default state is no,

Could be? As I see it: In  my hero phase, the movement phase of my turn has not happened yet, which means my raptors did not move and the longshot ability is not restricted to shooting phase hence I get the bonus. 

I need an example to understand your point better   For me the rule means, either they moved or not. There is no they moved a little like 1" special section. Meaning even if they only moved 1" they still moved -> yes, else no. 

[Mark Williams]

21 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Could be? As I see it: In  my hero phase, the movement phase of my turn has not happened yet, which means my raptors did not move and the longshot ability is not restricted to shooting phase hence I get the bonus. 

I need an example to understand your point better   For me the rule means, either they moved or not. There is no they moved a little like 1" special section. Meaning even if they only moved 1" they still moved -> yes, else no. 

I flip a coin. When it lands, I cover it up before you can see it. I will uncover the coin and show you the answer in the movement phase. In the hero phase, you can shoot further if the coin is heads.

 With only this information available, what state is the coin in, and based on that, can you shoot further or not?

[Maturin]

Thanks @Mark Williams, @schwabbele and @TomParry84 for your replies guys.

Now that I've read all of you, I agree with Schwabebele. The way I see it, they get the 30" range. THe ability says : If you don't move during your movement phase, you get 30" range. The ability by itself is not restricted to any phase, it just puts the emphasis on : Did you move during the movement phase ?

In the first hero phase, you haven't moved yet, so you answer no the question. so you get the additionnal range. It seems quite weird that, you would get the additional range in your second hero turn if you didn't move, but not during the first one.

To take a real life exemple about the default state, in some countries, you can't own guns. The defaut setting is thus interdiction. But if you're sports shooter in a club, you can. Thus : Defaut is interdiction
                                   Exception is authorization on the condition you shoot at paper targerts in a club


If you aplly this to the longshot rules then :
DEfaut : Add 6"range
Exception : If you've moved during movement phase, you don't.

Does it make sense to you guys ?
 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Maturin

[Mark Williams]

12 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Does it make sense to you guys ?
 

I understand your point of view. My point of view is that the answer to the question is not, “No,” but rather, “I don’t know because it hasn’t happened yet.”

[Maturin]

2 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I understand your point of view. My point of view is that the answer to the question is not, “No,” but rather, “I don’t know because it hasn’t happened yet.”

I see. How does @PJetski @Roarkor @Requizen play the rule ?

Edited October 4, 2019 by Maturin

[Lucur]

To chip in on the argument, to me this is a gentleman's game, even when competitive. Thus if something is unclear, i give the benefit of doubt to my opponent (unless it's cheesy douchebag ofcourse ).

In this case, there is no clear way for yes or no, there's valid arguments for both (you didn't move, but you didn't even have the conditional movement phase to begin with). If you simply plan around the 24" rather than the 30" for the hero phase shot, no argument can be had. Considering you'll have a means of teleportation in an Anvilstrike list more often than not... or you simply request a rule from a TO/judge beforehand to avoid discussion at the table.

[Maturin]

2 minutes ago, Lucur said:

Considering you'll have a means of teleportation in an Anvilstrike list more often than not...

On a 3+

[PJetski]

3 hours ago, Maturin said:

I see. How does @PJetski @Roarkor @Requizen play the rule ?

I play Longstrikes with 30" range in the hero phase. I used to play it 24" because I wasn't certain about the ruling and decided to take a more conservative approach, but I have been convinced otherwise.

"Add 6" to the Range characteristic of this unit’s Longstrike Crossbows if this unit did not move in the movement phase of the same turn."

The way the ability is worded the 6" bonus range is always active unless you do the specific action to disable it.

Since it does not specify "in the shooting phase" then it is active in all phases, even if the hero phase comes before the movement phase. It may seem strange at first, but warscroll abilities break the normal rules of the game quite frequently. 

[Requizen]

4 hours ago, Maturin said:

I see. How does @PJetski @Roarkor @Requizen play the rule ?

 

43 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I play Longstrikes with 30" range in the hero phase. I used to play it 24" because I wasn't certain about the ruling and decided to take a more conservative approach, but I have been convinced otherwise.

"Add 6" to the Range characteristic of this unit’s Longstrike Crossbows if this unit did not move in the movement phase of the same turn."

The way the ability is worded the 6" bonus range is always active unless you do the specific action to disable it.

Since it does not specify "in the shooting phase" then it is active in all phases, even if the hero phase comes before the movement phase. It may seem strange at first, but warscroll abilities break the normal rules of the game quite frequently. 

This is  how I personally interpret it. As a developer, flags like this happen a lot - "do this if something didn't happen" "But that part of the code hasn't run yet!" "So it didn't happen". Very simple boolean logic, though we are still as of yet unsure on intent.

I will play it however the TO rules it. I have had TOs interpret it both ways, and at events where GW was specifically present, they basically said "That's a really good question, do what the Judge tells you", which to me sound like they don't know and potentially will FAQ it.