AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[jhamslam]

3 minutes ago, ledha said:

If you want to cry, compare the screaming bell/plague bell with a lord celestant on dracoth who cost 220 pts

Oh trust me i know. A celestant prime with 8 wounds at 350 while AGKoTG with summoning healing and re-rollable fanged maw at 400 ugh

Arcanum at 240 and Verminlords with 5+ fnp at 260 wtf

[jhamslam]

27 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Low body count is a weakness but I have never found it to be a game-losing hindrance.  I don't waste time trying to compete with somebody about cramming more bodies onto the same objective. With Ballistas/Longstrikes Stormcast have the power to wipe units off objectives from half the board away and then leisurely walk on them - after 2 rounds of that kind of shooting the enemy has been crippled to the point that you can have a squad of 10 Evocators walk through the enemy army without taking a casualty.

Why are you sacrificing 10 Liberators if you can get the same effect on the state of the battle from sacrificing 5? Why run Sequitors if they die the same as Liberators but cost you more points?

Plague Monks are cheap but they're also slow and die in droves - once you kill their source of battleshock immunity they run away just as easily as they die. You shouldn't be engaging them directly in any kind of prolonged combat. Ideally you can shoot them off the table, so you don't suffer any of the mortal wounds from their deaths in combat, but if that's not an option you need to kill them on the charge. This unit should not be a problem unless you run a melee focused list with little shooting, and I don't think that has ever been a viable way to play Stormcast.

Stormcast are a very strong army but the power of the faction is not as obvious as "run forward and hit stuff" like most other armies in the game.

idk how often youve tried to kill those bells from range, but at a 4+ , 5+ fnp at 13 wounds theyre not exactly fragile. not to mention it also gets look out sir from the monks around it so im not so sure your ideal situation applies here.

My problem isnt just objective holding. Its that the elites in other peoples armies take up most of our resources and bodies away and so if we have an average dice roll day, theyll have enough bodies to mop up once we're done with their hard hitters. This is why the points costs hurt us. I understand it isnt a point and click army, but id rather not it be a well my units are good and i can hold the line despite some average rolls - "oh look 20 mortal wounds i cant do jack about welp " - without something to help us out.

[PJetski]

6 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

idk how often youve tried to kill those bells from range, but at a 4+ , 5+ fnp at 13 wounds theyre not exactly fragile. not to mention it also gets look out sir from the monks around it so im not so sure your ideal situation applies here.

My problem isnt just objective holding. Its that the elites in other peoples armies take up most of our resources and bodies away and so if we have an average dice roll day, theyll have enough bodies to mop up once we're done with their hard hitters. This is why the points costs hurt us. I understand it isnt a point and click army, but id rather not it be a well my units are good and i can hold the line despite some average rolls - "oh look 20 mortal wounds i cant do jack about welp " - without something to help us out.

It sounds like you are describing a very specific situation - could you give me more context?

Which units are doing 20 mortal wounds? Why are you letting those mortal wounds happen to your key units? Between deep strike shooting, Aetherwings stopping charges, and dispel scrolls there shouldn't be anything in the game that can hurt you that badly if you play around it correctly.

[jhamslam]

plague monk bricks cannot be eradicated as easily when the bells around. The bell itself is extremely difficult to get rid of since it gets Look Out Sir.

Faced Skaven and stayed away and ran as much as i could. Didnt matter. By the time i took the bells down he had objectives. he also had 3 catapults and 2 verminlords that kept on decimating me not to mention the plague prayers. I can play around a couple of things but man when a Skaven army brings an extremely strong shooting, melee AND magic component, our shooting anvilstrike seems like a one trick pony. 

The second is referring more towards FEC, i prolly couldve used another knight incantor. Maybe im just inexperienced, but terorgheists are basically mortal wound spam machines with the re-rollable fanged maw and if the new slaanesh tome is any indicator easy access to tons of mortal wounds arent gonna be a problem for anyone. The problem isnt just screening, its that you HAVE to kill 4 tgheists in a go otherwise at best youve bought yourself a turn with the aetherwings. And after that i have to deal with 60 ghouls and a varghulf and two archregents.  idk man facing point and click matchups like that are incredibly demoralizing knowing i cant do much. Maybe i need to deploy better.

[Redbaron]

Hi everybody,

I'm planning to get my first 2000-point army assembled, and just wanted to get some input.  I'm not seeking a super-competitive list, but I would like it to be decently fun to play and have a good synergy or two.  I'm also not too sure about weapons choices etc, so thoughts would be welcome.

I have done a list largely on what I found fluffy and interesting, so the list is for the Anvils of the Heldenhammer, in Ulgu, and leans away from magic and Sacrosanct options - basically because I just liked all those things!  Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Lord-Celestant on Dracoth (220)
- General
- Lightning Hammer & Thundershield
- Trait: Deathly Aura 
- Artefact: Soulthief 
- Mount Trait: Pack Leader
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- Storm Lance
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Bless Weapons
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Knight-Venator (120)

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows

Units
2 x Fulminators (240)

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100
 

[PJetski]

4 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

plague monk bricks cannot be eradicated as easily when the bells around. The bell itself is extremely difficult to get rid of since it gets Look Out Sir.

Faced Skaven and stayed away and ran as much as i could. Didnt matter. By the time i took the bells down he had objectives. he also had 3 catapults and 2 verminlords that kept on decimating me not to mention the plague prayers. I can play around a couple of things but man when a Skaven army brings an extremely strong shooting, melee AND magic component, our shooting anvilstrike seems like a one trick pony. 

The second is referring more towards FEC, i prolly couldve used another knight incantor. Maybe im just inexperienced, but terorgheists are basically mortal wound spam machines with the re-rollable fanged maw and if the new slaanesh tome is any indicator easy access to tons of mortal wounds arent gonna be a problem for anyone. The problem isnt just screening, its that you HAVE to kill 4 tgheists in a go otherwise at best youve bought yourself a turn with the aetherwings. And after that i have to deal with 60 ghouls and a varghulf and two archregents.  idk man facing point and click matchups like that are incredibly demoralizing knowing i cant do much. Maybe i need to deploy better.

Playing against Skaven is all about target priority. Anvilstrike is about laser precision to cut your opponent down at the knees. If you can keep your Longstrikes untouched then you will win the game, even if they are on the objectives first. Skaven with Vortex are the main reason why I bring 2 Incantors - two guaranteed turns of defense against Vortex (and there's no guarantee they make the cast value 8 roll) will give you enough time to shoot down the targets you need. 

Highest priority is to kill their ranged units that can reach Longstrikes. In the situation you described you should be killing their Plague Claws first. The most damage a Plagueclaw can do to your Longstrikes is 6 and that's a very unlikely result but you want to make sure it doesn't happen. Deploy out of their range and then teleport your Longstrikes into range to shoot them down, and make sure your army moves up to screen for them.

Once the catapults are dead the Skaven player must engage you in melee or they'll just keep taking crippling blows with no ability to recover. This is where the Aetherwings step in - when used properly they buy you a turn (or sometimes two) and give you time to shoot more and get the charge you want with Evocators. You always want to fight on your terms - don't let the rats dictate the pace of the game.

Second priority is the objectives. Rule of thumb: you can afford to lose the objectives 2 of 5 rounds, but you must be able to hold them for at least 3 of 5 to win. It is preferably to give up objectives turn 1 because it puts your opponent in a position to give you optimal shooting. If you can, position your Liberator screens such that they enemy can't finish their pile-in on the objective so all they accomplish from charging is putting themselves in range to get hit back by Evocators.

Third priority is support heroes, but it really depends on what value they add. You need to plan ahead - it's not worth killing a Hag if you aren't planning on killing the Witch Aelf block in the next turn. 

Lowest priority is usually the enemy melee units. Heavy hitters can be tied them down with Aetherwings long enough until you clear out the threats to your Longstrikes and let your Evocators get in position.

 

Playing against FEC is very simple - Terrorgheists should be blocked by Aetherwings and Liberators, then shot/zapped down on your turn. Once the AGKTG are dead there's nothing left to contest your firepower.

 

Anvilstrike is not an easy list to play, but when you figure out all the nuance you'll find it can handle anything your opponent can throw at you.

[jhamslam]

35 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Playing against Skaven is all about target priority. Anvilstrike is about laser precision to cut your opponent down at the knees. If you can keep your Longstrikes untouched then you will win the game, even if they are on the objectives first. Skaven with Vortex are the main reason why I bring 2 Incantors - two guaranteed turns of defense against Vortex (and there's no guarantee they make the cast value 8 roll) will give you enough time to shoot down the targets you need. 

Highest priority is to kill their ranged units that can reach Longstrikes. In the situation you described you should be killing their Plague Claws first. The most damage a Plagueclaw can do to your Longstrikes is 6 and that's a very unlikely result but you want to make sure it doesn't happen. Deploy out of their range and then teleport your Longstrikes into range to shoot them down, and make sure your army moves up to screen for them.

Once the catapults are dead the Skaven player must engage you in melee or they'll just keep taking crippling blows with no ability to recover. This is where the Aetherwings step in - when used properly they buy you a turn (or sometimes two) and give you time to shoot more and get the charge you want with Evocators. You always want to fight on your terms - don't let the rats dictate the pace of the game.

Second priority is the objectives. Rule of thumb: you can afford to lose the objectives 2 of 5 rounds, but you must be able to hold them for at least 3 of 5 to win. It is preferably to give up objectives turn 1 because it puts your opponent in a position to give you optimal shooting. If you can, position your Liberator screens such that they enemy can't finish their pile-in on the objective so all they accomplish from charging is putting themselves in range to get hit back by Evocators.

Third priority is support heroes, but it really depends on what value they add. You need to plan ahead - it's not worth killing a Hag if you aren't planning on killing the Witch Aelf block in the next turn. 

Lowest priority is usually the enemy melee units. Heavy hitters can be tied them down with Aetherwings long enough until you clear out the threats to your Longstrikes and let your Evocators get in position.

 

Playing against FEC is very simple - Terrorgheists should be blocked by Aetherwings and Liberators, then shot/zapped down on your turn. Once the AGKTG are dead there's nothing left to contest your firepower.

 

Anvilstrike is not an easy list to play, but when you figure out all the nuance you'll find it can handle anything your opponent can throw at you.

ill try and play this again this weekend. Thanks for the advice, i really appreciate it

[Mark Williams]

48 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Anvilstrike is not an easy list to play, but when you figure out all the nuance you'll find it can handle anything your opponent can throw at you.

It's worth noting that a lot of people here were talking about generic stormcast and the frustrations of playing that in today's environment, and you're speaking from the perspective of a very specific list, and arguably the best list that SCE is capable of playing at the moment. It's all well and good and I concede that's one of the strongest lists SCE can take right now, but try to keep that in mind when you reply to people. Not every comment can or should be rebutted with, "Just play anvilstrike like me, and then you'll have no problems."

As an aside, I really feel that Avilstrike, and Gav bombs to a lesser degree, have really masked the problems we have and makes it difficult to have good conversations about where SCE really are in the game right now. When your perspective wildly varies between "unwinnable games" and "piece of cake", it's really hard for people to relate to each other. And outsiders who might've only faced the best lists view any negativity as just unwarranted and selfish.

Having said that.... I also agree that if someone's chief complaint is that other armies are "point and click" and ours are not, it's probably time to go to Anvilstrike or another similar list. It's potentially our only army that can even be mildly considered point and click. So if that's what you want to go for, I guess it might be time to start buying some vanguard raptors.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Mark Williams

[PJetski]

1 hour ago, Mark Williams said:

It's worth noting that a lot of people here were talking about generic stormcast and the frustrations of playing that in today's environment, and you're speaking from the perspective of a very specific list, and arguably the best list that SCE is capable of playing at the moment. It's all well and good and I concede that's one of the strongest lists SCE can take right now, but try to keep that in mind when you reply to people. Not every comment can or should be rebutted with, "Just play anvilstrike like me, and then you'll have no problems."

As an aside, I really feel that Avilstrike, and Gav bombs to a lesser degree, have really masked the problems we have and makes it difficult to have good conversations about where SCE really are in the game right now. When your perspective wildly varies between "unwinnable games" and "piece of cake", it's really hard for people to relate to each other. And outsiders who might've only faced the best lists view any negativity as just unwarranted and selfish.

Having said that.... I also agree that if someone's chief complaint is that other armies are "point and click" and ours are not, it's probably time to go to Anvilstrike or another similar list. It's potentially our only army that can even be mildly considered point and click. So if that's what you want to go for, I guess it might be time to start buying some vanguard raptors

I agree and I hope people don't misunderstand me; I think Stormcast are a half-baked faction and we need rule changes for 80% of our units. That said, there are still some key units that can make some really powerful lists, and Anvilstrike is just one of them.

Stormcast have a bunch of lousy units but the same can be said about Skaven. If Skaven are considered a strong faction when they bring the same half dozen units then I don't see why that argument wouldn't apply to Stormcast as well.

I try to be as general as possible with my advice but sometimes you need to use specific examples in order to get concepts across.

It's unfortunate that bad units exist in any army but hopefully they can try to fix it over time. Thankfully we don't have to wait too long between each generals handbook.

[Mark Williams]

8 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I agree and I hope people don't misunderstand me; I think Stormcast are a half-baked faction and we need rule changes for 80% of our units. That said, there are still some key units that can make some really powerful lists, and Anvilstrike is just one of them.

Stormcast have a bunch of lousy units but the same can be said about Skaven. If Skaven are considered a strong faction when they bring the same half dozen units then I don't see why that argument wouldn't apply to Stormcast as well.

I try to be as general as possible with my advice but sometimes you need to use specific examples in order to get concepts across.

It's unfortunate that bad units exist in any army but hopefully they can try to fix it over time. Thankfully we don't have to wait too long between each generals handbook.

One thing to note however, is that Evocators and Longstrike raptors by themselves aren't necessarily what make Anvilstrike or Gav bomb powerful. Rather, it's the stormhost and special character rules.

Both of those stormhosts aren't inclusive, so you have to take one or the other, and anyone playing a different stormhost doesn't have access to this. I think if you look outside of the stormhost, a pack of Raptors is scary, but can't dish out enough damage to overcome most other armies that are rushing towards you. They only barely win being able to shoot twice, so I'm not even sure how much of a "thing" it would be without Anvils propping them up. Same with Evocators (in an Anvils list) or assaulting in a Hammers list with Gav. Those units by themselves aren't much better or different than other equivalent units in other army lists.

The question I have, then, is HOW COMMON are the really powerful lists in other armies as opposed to Stormcast, and how reliant are they on sub-faction rules as opposed to army wide rules.

As my army has been painted in the Hammers of Sigmar colors, even before the AOS 2 book came out, that is the host that I play exclusively. I don't have access to Anvilstrike, and even if I took that unit of longstrike raptors and built an army around it, it wouldn't work the same for me.

My "best" list I can take right now is essentially revolving around sequitor spamming the board, and backing that up with a Gav bomb and some long range shooting. It's an okay list that seems to get hard countered by any army that's better at assault than me, which is just about everybody. The biggest issue I've had by far in tournaments however, is objective and board control. By the end of most games, even if I've been winning, I'm basically running on fumes. My army is depleted, almost no unit is at full strength. My opponents by comparison can summon in reserves late game and bring themselves almost completely back up to full strength. I'm basically just bleeding dry by the end of matches, and the only thing that works is if I manage to win so completely that I more or less table my opponent.

It's a really TOUGH match when your win condition is wiping your opponent off the board or losing because you don't have enough bodies to hold objectives. I've faced a lot of opponents in tournaments that I just simply automatically lose against because I don't have the pure damage output and bodies to lock down objectives. I can't tell you how many times I lost a game because someone just walked a small unit of useless chaff around my 2-3 models and grabbed the objectives with me standing on top of it.

[jhamslam]

58 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

One thing to note however, is that Evocators and Longstrike raptors by themselves aren't necessarily what make Anvilstrike or Gav bomb powerful. Rather, it's the stormhost and special character rules.

Both of those stormhosts aren't inclusive, so you have to take one or the other, and anyone playing a different stormhost doesn't have access to this. I think if you look outside of the stormhost, a pack of Raptors is scary, but can't dish out enough damage to overcome most other armies that are rushing towards you. They only barely win being able to shoot twice, so I'm not even sure how much of a "thing" it would be without Anvils propping them up. Same with Evocators (in an Anvils list) or assaulting in a Hammers list with Gav. Those units by themselves aren't much better or different than other equivalent units in other army lists.

The question I have, then, is HOW COMMON are the really powerful lists in other armies as opposed to Stormcast, and how reliant are they on sub-faction rules as opposed to army wide rules.

As my army has been painted in the Hammers of Sigmar colors, even before the AOS 2 book came out, that is the host that I play exclusively. I don't have access to Anvilstrike, and even if I took that unit of longstrike raptors and built an army around it, it wouldn't work the same for me.

My "best" list I can take right now is essentially revolving around sequitor spamming the board, and backing that up with a Gav bomb and some long range shooting. It's an okay list that seems to get hard countered by any army that's better at assault than me, which is just about everybody. The biggest issue I've had by far in tournaments however, is objective and board control. By the end of most games, even if I've been winning, I'm basically running on fumes. My army is depleted, almost no unit is at full strength. My opponents by comparison can summon in reserves late game and bring themselves almost completely back up to full strength. I'm basically just bleeding dry by the end of matches, and the only thing that works is if I manage to win so completely that I more or less table my opponent.

It's a really TOUGH match when your win condition is wiping your opponent off the board or losing because you don't have enough bodies to hold objectives. I've faced a lot of opponents in tournaments that I just simply automatically lose against because I don't have the pure damage output and bodies to lock down objectives. I can't tell you how many times I lost a game because someone just walked a small unit of useless chaff around my 2-3 models and grabbed the objectives with me standing on top of it.

This is summed up pretty well. I hate to have the table the opponent as the only way of winning. Honestly i look at all their cool combos and layers of synergy, starting from their warscrolls, to their heroes to their battalions and pretty soon realize that SCE has none of it. Our best battalion is the phalanx and the only one that feels like a cohesive fighting force.

The one reason other armies are so well tuned is that they have like 12 - 15 units in total. Stormcast has waaay more than that and this has led to sloppy rushed and incomplete design from the devs. If they took the path of skaven and really tuned our battletome it mightve been different.

[PJetski]

2 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

As my army has been painted in the Hammers of Sigmar colors, even before the AOS 2 book came out, that is the host that I play exclusively. I don't have access to Anvilstrike, and even if I took that unit of longstrike raptors and built an army around it, it wouldn't work the same for me.

There's nothing wrong with this, but I would say that you are arguing in bad faith if you say that your entire faction is weak because you choose to artificially restrict yourself in this way...

Most Stormcast units suck and every reasonable person would prefer if they didn't, but that doesn't mean Stormcast are a weak faction.

Edited May 22, 2019 by PJetski

[Mark Williams]

12 minutes ago, PJetski said:

There's nothing wrong with this, but I would say that you are arguing in bad faith if you say that your entire faction is weak because you choose to artificially restrict yourself in this way...

Most Stormcast units suck and every reasonable person would prefer if they didn't, but that doesn't mean Stormcast are a weak faction.

I would say taking the very best a faction has to offer and only arguing from that standpoint is also in bad faith as well. There needs to be some concession that not everyone will just play the best stormhost there is based on whatever army they are taking, purely for the benefit of their special rules. Not everyone wants to be "forced" into playing Anvils.

[PJetski]

3 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I would say taking the very best a faction has to offer and only arguing from that standpoint is also in bad faith as well. There needs to be some concession that not everyone will just play the best stormhost there is based on whatever army they are taking, purely for the benefit of their special rules. Not everyone wants to be "forced" into playing Anvils.

How can you have a discussion on the strength of a faction  if people are just taking whatever units they want that fit their fluff?  Does faction strength even matter in that context? It would be more productive to make your own balance with friends than try to impose how the game should be played by others around the world because you are choosing to restricting yourself in some arbitrary way.

Also, there are more viable competitive Stormcast lists than just Anvilstrike... It was only one example, and I already explained why I used it as an example so I'm not sure why you are beating that dead horse.

[Mark Williams]

2 hours ago, PJetski said:

How can you have a discussion on the strength of a faction  if people are just taking whatever units they want that fit their fluff?  Does faction strength even matter in that context? It would be more productive to make your own balance with friends than try to impose how the game should be played by others around the world because you are choosing to restricting yourself in some arbitrary way.

Also, there are more viable competitive Stormcast lists than just Anvilstrike... It was only one example, and I already explained why I used it as an example so I'm not sure why you are beating that dead horse.

I do not think it is normal to think of the stormhost rules as easily interchangeable as something like spell lores, as I feel that picking your stormhost is often one of the first steps to choosing an army theme and paint scheme. I do not think that I am alone in this thought process, and I think that a lot of people who come here seeking advice (or just complaining) are in a similar situation, where they have been struggling with their games, but do not think of changing stormhost rules as an option. It's clear to me that you do not think this way and think it should be obvious to just use whichever rules give you the best advantage. To be clear, I do not feel this is obvious, and I think for some people it will be a challenge to give up their stormhost or to be told that if they want to do better they will have to give up completely on the lore/narrative of their army in pursuit of that.

I want to re-iterate that one of the main disagreements I think I have with you is in the number of actual viable competitive lists SCE have access to. You seem to feel there are many. I tend to think there are really only 2 or 3, with perhaps 5-6 more that are almost as good, but haven't actually proven themselves on the national tournament seen. I'm convinced an Anvilstrike list is probably at the top of this heap, with a seq/evo/gav combo being very close behind it. After that I feel there is a "gap" to the next strongest list, which is probably the unkillable star drake type lists, and then just below that I feel there are several hybrid or smaller lists that are doing well, but in some ways are essentially derivative of the above three lists. For example I might tend to think of an anvil-dracovator bomb type lists as juts simply a derivative of anvilstrike, for the simple reason that the core power of these two lists involves using (or abusing) a stormhost ability to have a single powerful unit doubletap it's power in a hero phase. I'd also think of most seq/evo lists that don't involve gavriel as just sort of a derivative list that has similar features but is sort of just a less powerful version of that.

I think this is tripping up our conversations because it seems to me that you consider "derivative" lists to be unique and seperate and somehow just as competitive, while I tend to think that if the list isn't really doing anything significantly different, or it's just relying on the same gimmic, then it's basically just a watered down version of the "best" version of that list. I think this is significant for the primary reason that it gives us a much more realistic view of how our book is fairing compared to other factions/books. From my perspective, stormcast on the whole are doing quite poorly, and their book is less than average, except for a handful of notable exceptions that are sort of exploiting some weird gimmick, almost to the point of abuse. I think this also explains our poor performance in the national average rankings, as occasionally we see one of these power armies in the top  performers, but SCE as a whole is basically down at the bottom everywhere else.

[schwabbele]

37 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I do not think it is normal to think of the stormhost rules as easily interchangeable as something like spell lores, as I feel that picking your stormhost is often one of the first steps to choosing an army theme and paint scheme.

Hmm that's an interesting statement but why are you deliberately limiting yourself? My guess is HoS are "the stormhost" is because they are on every boxart and a lot of people just paint that ( which is perfectly fine! ) . I for example didn't like the blue and went all screamer pink instead of the blue and I didn't know any of the stormhosts well when I made that decision. And now I am happy that I can change things up when I switch to a different stormhost. I just wished I skipped on the gold armor, turned out painting metallics is a real pita for me

I kinda feel like you want to have separate "chapters" like the space marines have with their own books?

Anyhow a few more weeks and we will all know in which direction GW is sending us 😆

[Mark Williams]

13 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Hmm that's an interesting statement but why are you deliberately limiting yourself? My guess is HoS are "the stormhost" is because they are on every boxart and a lot of people just paint that ( which is perfectly fine! ) . I for example didn't like the blue and went all screamer pink instead of the blue and I didn't know any of the stormhosts well when I made that decision. And now I am happy that I can change things up when I switch to a different stormhost. I just wished I skipped on the gold armor, turned out painting metallics is a real pita for me

Yes, i had a few chats with some friends in my hobby group, and they mostly think that the stormhosts are just like "lores" so I guess I'm just weird.

13 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

I kinda feel like you want to have separate "chapters" like the space marines have with their own books?

Anyhow a few more weeks and we will all know in which direction GW is sending us 😆

Yes I have a Salamanders Space Marine army and think of it the same way. The thought of playing them as a different chapter is completely unthinkable to me... I am curious what the new GHB will have in store as well. The pessimistic part of me feels we will be ignored again... but who knows.

[Lucur]

My minis are painted as Hammers as well and i play them as such in every casual/ pick up game. In the two tournaments i took part in, i switched to no stormhost (staunch defender) as well as the occasional game against a buddy who is, let's say, of a competitive mindset.

I would not hesitate to try other stormhosts as well. Me collecting them as Hammers and having my headcanon as Hammers doesn't (and shouldn't!) keep me from experiencing other approaches to the game-part of the hobby. Maybe i'm shizophrenic, but there's no issue with that separation in my head. Neither would i eber call out a player for doing likewise wirh his minis. I can't remember someone calling out faction rules for DoK, FEC or Fyreslayers, same for, say Tau Septs or whatever in 40k. Just because everyone knows the chapters and stormhosts of the posterboys shouldn't restrict us more than anyone else.

[StealthKnightSteg]

4 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

Yes, i had a few chats with some friends in my hobby group, and they mostly think that the stormhosts are just like "lores" so I guess I'm just weird.

Yes I have a Salamanders Space Marine army and think of it the same way. The thought of playing them as a different chapter is completely unthinkable to me... I am curious what the new GHB will have in store as well. The pessimistic part of me feels we will be ignored again... but who knows.

I have the same thing.. I painted my SCE as Knights of the Aurora.. and by that I "could" take any stormhost rules as my own as my colorscheme won't match any of them. But I named my stormhost.. thought about a narrative for my stormhost and I can't just bring myself to use any other stormhosts rule as that would be an infringement of my own induced lore I have.

Same goes for my Sa'cea Sept for T'au... I wanted to utilize some T'au Sept detachments as well.. so guess what: now I'm painting T'au Sept patterns..

[PJetski]

7 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

I want to re-iterate that one of the main disagreements I think I have with you is in the number of actual viable competitive lists SCE have access to. You seem to feel there are many. I tend to think there are really only 2 or 3, with perhaps 5-6 more that are almost as good, but haven't actually proven themselves on the national tournament seen. I'm convinced an Anvilstrike list is probably at the top of this heap, with a seq/evo/gav combo being very close behind it. After that I feel there is a "gap" to the next strongest list, which is probably the unkillable star drake type lists, and then just below that I feel there are several hybrid or smaller lists that are doing well, but in some ways are essentially derivative of the above three lists. For example I might tend to think of an anvil-dracovator bomb type lists as juts simply a derivative of anvilstrike, for the simple reason that the core power of these two lists involves using (or abusing) a stormhost ability to have a single powerful unit doubletap it's power in a hero phase. I'd also think of most seq/evo lists that don't involve gavriel as just sort of a derivative list that has similar features but is sort of just a less powerful version of that.

Gavriel and Stardrakes aren't even in the top 5. You are missing a lot of lists, and then making a lot of erroneous assumptions. Anvilstrike is the most unique of them all, but they all utilize different stormhosts in very different ways.

Quote

From my perspective, stormcast on the whole are doing quite poorly, and their book is less than average, except for a handful of notable exceptions that are sort of exploiting some weird gimmick, almost to the point of abuse.

Every army has "bad" units and "good" units. I agree that Stormcast have far too many bad ones and that they get carried by a handful of strong units... but that is true for all other armies. Skaven have a battletome full of trash units and get carried on the backs of a handful of strong units. Idoneth with their eels, FEC with terrorgheists, DOK witch aelves, Seraphon thunderquake starhost, Nurgle GUOs, LON with grimghast, etc..

I would like to have a game where every unit and every Stormhost is viable but that will probably never happen because they don't just design around a single game type, and some rules fit into Matched Play better than others. 

You are free to play with whatever rules you want, but if you want to talk about relative power in a game then you have to be talking about the same rule set. It is impossible for us to even have this conversation because you are playing by a different set of rules so we have no common ground to start a discussion.

Finally, I find it hypocritical to discuss how to beat Skaven armies cherrypicking their best units while condemning the same action with Stormcast to be "abuse" or "derivative". Calling it "abuse" is really peculiar; it makes it seem like you are trying really hard to justify playing a weak army on purpose by demonizing anyone playing the game in another way (in this case the way the rules are written 😂). You can play however you want, but you shouldn't expect changes to a game played around the world to suit your strange self-imposed houserules.

[Mark Williams]

44 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Gavriel and Stardrakes aren't even in the top 5. You are missing a lot of lists, and then making a lot of erroneous assumptions. Anvilstrike is the most unique of them all, but they all utilize different stormhosts in very different ways.

Can you please describe the lists you think are in the top 5? I’ve not really heard of much else placing highly in tournaments this past year. It’s always some anvil list or some sort of sequitor/evo spam combo. And no one seems to be talking about other combos on this forum. There’s basically three units in the book that make up the backbone of all the competitive sce armies. They only fit together in so many different ways.

44 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Every army has "bad" units and "good" units. I agree that Stormcast have far too many bad ones and that they get carried by a handful of strong units... but that is true for all other armies. Skaven have a battletome full of trash units and get carried on the backs of a handful of strong units. Idoneth with their eels, FEC with terrorgheists, DOK witch aelves, Seraphon thunderquake starhost, Nurgle GUOs, LON with grimghast, etc..

I would like to have a game where every unit and every Stormhost is viable but that will probably never happen because they don't just design around a single game type, and some rules fit into Matched Play better than others. 

You are free to play with whatever rules you want, but if you want to talk about relative power in a game then you have to be talking about the same rule set. It is impossible for us to even have this conversation because you are playing by a different set of rules so we have no common ground to start a discussion.

Finally, I find it hypocritical to discuss how to beat Skaven armies cherrypicking their best units while condemning the same action with Stormcast to be "abuse" or "derivative". Calling it "abuse" is really peculiar; it makes it seem like you are trying really hard to justify playing a weak army on purpose by demonizing anyone playing the game in another way (in this case the way the rules are written 😂). You can play however you want, but you shouldn't expect changes to a game played around the world to suit your strange self-imposed houserules.

At this point I just want to seek clarity rather than agreement. When you make a post telling anyone that sce are fine, you’re automatically assuming they have the same values as you, then completely disregarding their point of view if you find they don’t. I agree that it makes it nearly impossible to have a discussion with each other if your point of view is disregard anyone who sees the game a bit differently than you.

Also, you’re putting words into my mouth with the whole demonizing thing. I never said your way of playing the game is bad. I said you aren’t understanding where other people are coming from when they come here asking for help, which I think is/was true.

In any case, I’d seriously like to hear what you consider the top 5 SCE armies. I think that would be really helpful.

[chord]

I believe you can tell the state of SCE when the default answer is use anvilstrike. 

[PJetski]

45 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Can you please describe the lists you think are in the top 5? I’ve not really heard of much else placing highly in tournaments this past year. It’s always some anvil list or some sort of sequitor/evo spam combo. And no one seems to be talking about other combos on this forum. There’s basically three units in the book that make up the backbone of all the competitive sce armies. They only fit together in so many different ways.

At this point I just want to seek clarity rather than agreement. When you make a post telling anyone that sce are fine, you’re automatically assuming they have the same values as you, then completely disregarding their point of view if you find they don’t. I agree that it makes it nearly impossible to have a discussion with each other if your point of view is disregard anyone who sees the game a bit differently than you.

Also, you’re putting words into my mouth with the whole demonizing thing. I never said your way of playing the game is bad. I said you aren’t understanding where other people are coming from when they come here asking for help, which I think is/was true.

In any case, I’d seriously like to hear what you consider the top 5 SCE armies. I think that would be really helpful.

I don't disregard your opinion, or think it lesser to mine. Im trying to have discussions about the game with the rules the way they are written, and your way of playing the game is not in alignment with the discussion I am having. People want to know how to win games as Stormcast and cite the collected data as evidence that it is impossible to compete with the other top armies. I am saying that the stats don't tell the full story and Stormcast are capable of being the strongest army, but it may involve using units and strategies you may not want to use (a problem for ALL armies!).

The problem I see with any Gavriel list is that it spends too many points on melee units + Gavriel + CP, Sequitors are a surprisingly bad unit (I have explained why I feel this way many times in this thread - check my post history), and there are better delivery mechanisms for Evocators that don't lock you into a terrible Stormhost. Immortal Stardrake lists look good on paper but the Stardrake doesn't do enough damage to justify its cost without Smoldering Helm but losing the protection of Ignax's Scales means you almost auto-lose to many lists that can push significant mortal wounds (like Skaven, Stormcast, or Hermdar). 

I think the top 3 are Astral Templars (10-15 Evo + 4 Ballista), Anvilstrike (10 Evo + 9 LS), Celestial Vindicators (6 Dracoline + 4 Ballista). It's hard to rank them because they all have stronger and weaker matchups.

#4 and #5 are a little different, and much more dependent on your meta. #4 is a 6-8 Fulminators with proper support (Staunch, 2x Incantor, Heraldor, Castellant, etc.)  If you are in a shooting meta then this is probably the best Stormcast list because it ties down the entire enemy army and just doesn't die to anything, but also has the ability to retreat and charge to another combat if needed. If the GHB makes the right changes I think this list (or a variant with Desolators) has the potential to rise to equal status with the top 3.

I think #5 is a variant of Anvilstrike that goes all-in on shooting by swapping the Evocators for a Ballista core. Double tapping Longstrikes are threatening enough, but having a ballista drop to support that from turn 1 is even more devastating. If it wasn't for the risk of being significantly nerfed with bad Realmscapes in Ulgu & Aqshy and Total Commitment preventing deep strike, I think this would be a better choice than the regular version of Anvilstrike.

Many of these lists utilize the same "good" units, and I agree that it's a problem. I don't like that the best way to play is to use the same core units in almost every list. The Stormcast battletome sucks because it doesn't offer enough viable options and I really hope the GHB has cuts for most of our bad units. I don't think it would take drastic measures to open up a lot of options, small tweaks to point costs (especially Battalions) and some different battleline choices (Dracoths, Palladors) would blow the doors wide open.

Edited May 22, 2019 by PJetski

[Warbossironteef]

As a Seraphon player who is now getting into Stormcast (building Anvils list) I think people should try out some Skinks. They are not battleline anymore but they do all the things you are looking for. 10 bodies, fast, and super high bravery.

The biggest thing is if you take multiple units and they get charged, one will die, but then you activate and get to remove an entire unit of combat. I plan on using some in my army.

Do people have good reasons for not using them? I plan on bringing a 20 man unit of Sequitors and some skins to be my defense against charges.

[fwlr]

Hiya guys, I'm looking for some feedback on my list again.  I'm getting back into SCE after soul wars last year (got sidetracked by 40k) and have made a list that is only £30 more stuff I need. I'm using celestial vindicators because I think they're cool, and my dudes are painted in quite a grimdark colour scheme - dark, weathered steel all over with spots of gold, and glowing blue power. Easy to paint, looks decent too👍. I guess I'd be up to switching to another stormhost but I'm not about to buy £100+ of characters and units, I'm using what I've got.

Vindicators

Arcanum on gryph, general + relic vindicators. Azryite halo. 240 (can swap to a foot dude, made one with my spare evocator.) (Could drop to foot, drop shackles + CP and take an incantor too)

Castellant. 100

Ordinator. 140

4 ballistas 400 (could drop one to switch up a bit, saves me some cash too)

20 sequitors 400

2x5 sequitors 240

2x5 evocators

Extra CP and shackles.

The only other options to swap stuff is for libs and other endless spells (+incantor) I've got some paladins even though they aren't great. I've got relictor etc stuff from old old box.

What do you guys think? Do I really need to switch to anvils? My place is definitely not very competitive.

 

Edit- I just remembered I wanted to ask- how do I make the ballistas more accurate? Ordinator obviously, but I head people here having them hit on 2+s. Just can't remember how.

Cheers

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by fwlr