AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[DocKeule]

On 3/31/2021 at 2:05 AM, Deadrixc said:

As crazy and awful as it sounds, is it possible to build a deathstar type IDK army focusing on buffing and resurrecting namarti thralls? 

To a degree maybe but you can only bring back Namarti in your battleshock phase. So if you are heavily engaged you will probably loose a lot more models than you can resurrect. 

I have tried a list with two turtles and a Eidalon of Storm for the first time today.

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Nautilar

LEADERS
Volturnos, High King of the Deep (270)
- General
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (330)
- Artefact: Cloud of Midnight

UNITS
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (110)
- Retarius Net Launcher

BEHEMOTHS
Akhelian Leviadon (340)
- Mount Trait: Ancient
Akhelian Leviadon (340)
- Mount Trait: Reverberating Carapace

BATTALIONS
Akhelian Corps (100)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Extra Command Point (50)

TOTAL: 1960/2000 WOUNDS: 96

It did work out OK. The bubbles of Volturnor and the Eidalon did a lot to increase the wounding hits and with two Leviadons it is easier to keep most of the army in the bubble (plus with the Nautilar enclave both are part of the battalion). The footprint is getting a little smaller though but that might be worth it. I will try a couple of more times but I am considering buying a second turtle.

[JackStreicher]

I just had a idea while lock down-ing:

IDK have a lack of Tridents 🔱. I personally (as well as others? Just comment on this to let me know) would love an elite armoured infantry (and or monstrous Cavalry). A perfect name for that unit, which also gives away their weaponry would be: Akhelian Trident Guard

Just a thought

 

I hope there‘ll be a Broken Realms book for us which revives Mathlann!

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by JackStreicher

[JonnyTheKing]

Hello all, new to Deepkin! Ordered my first boxes just now, what do you guys do about the flight stands? Do they cause many issues? do you use them at all? Would love some thoughts

[DocKeule]

The flightstands on the eels are a pain. You will have to find a way to stabilize the model until the glue has dried. The painting handle with the clamps might work but that you can only build one at a time. The stand from the turtle works fine though.

 

On 4/5/2021 at 12:32 PM, JackStreicher said:

I just had a idea while lock down-ing:

IDK have a lack of Tridents 🔱. I personally (as well as others? Just comment on this to let me know) would love an elite armoured infantry (and or monstrous Cavalry). A perfect name for that unit, which also gives away their weaponry would be: Akhelian Trident Guard

Just a thought

 

I hope there‘ll be a Broken Realms book for us which revives Mathlann!

 

Akhelians wouldn't be infantry I think. But a Namarti variation with 2" reach would be nice. 

But since we already had our broken realms update I don't expect another one. But as we now have the second oldest battletome I hope for a new book some time soon.

[mrteige]

3 hours ago, JonnyTheKing said:

Hello all, new to Deepkin! Ordered my first boxes just now, what do you guys do about the flight stands? Do they cause many issues? do you use them at all? Would love some thoughts

I hate the flight stands so this is my solution.

[El Antiguo Guardián]

13 hours ago, mrteige said:

I hate the flight stands so this is my solution.

 

Very cool bases! I´m waiting in order to see them finished.

 

On the other hand, here you have the tournament reports of march. Bad day for Idoneth talking about luck, because on the table, they beat all the enemies armies.

 

Playing with Guardi (AoS 2.0.) - March Tournament (Idoneth vs Cities, Lumineth & Tzeentch) - YouTube

 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by El Antiguo Guardián

[mrteige]

4 hours ago, El Antiguo Guardián said:

Very cool bases! I´m waiting in order to see them finished.

Thx.

I will take some pictures when i get my last 4 sharks home from my gaming club so i can pin them to the bases. Then you will have an idea how it all will look even though not all of the army is painted

[DocKeule]

After the Eidolon repeatedly did really poorly for me I switched him and the second turtle out for more sharks and another unit of eels:
 

Spoiler

Volturnos, High King of the Deep (270)
- General
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness

UNITS
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)
- Razorshell Harpoon
3 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)
- Razorshell Harpoon

BEHEMOTHS
Akhelian Leviadon (340)
- Mount Trait: Ancient

BATTALIONS
Akhelian Corps (100)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Extra Command Point (50)

TOTAL: 1980/2000 WOUNDS: 120

Had my first game with this list this evening against a horde-heavy Glommspite Gits list. We played "scorched eartch". I would have tabled him round four but he beat me in points by a lot mainly using "hand of Gork" to teleport to one of my objectives and burn it almost every round. 

Still it was a fun game and I was kind of happy with this first test-run. Three sharks hit like a truck and both units did a lot better than Stormy in any of the previous games. I would still like a second hero (especially for some scenarios) but I feel like neither the Tidecaster nor the Soulscryer are worth dropping one unit of eels 😐

[Chronos]

19 hours ago, DocKeule said:

After the Eidolon repeatedly did really poorly for me I switched him and the second turtle out for more sharks and another unit of eels:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Volturnos, High King of the Deep (270)
- General
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness

UNITS
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)
- Razorshell Harpoon
3 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)
- Razorshell Harpoon

BEHEMOTHS
Akhelian Leviadon (340)
- Mount Trait: Ancient

BATTALIONS
Akhelian Corps (100)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Extra Command Point (50)

TOTAL: 1980/2000 WOUNDS: 120

Had my first game with this list this evening against a horde-heavy Glommspite Gits list. We played "scorched eartch". I would have tabled him round four but he beat me in points by a lot mainly using "hand of Gork" to teleport to one of my objectives and burn it almost every round. 

Still it was a fun game and I was kind of happy with this first test-run. Three sharks hit like a truck and both units did a lot better than Stormy in any of the previous games. I would still like a second hero (especially for some scenarios) but I feel like neither the Tidecaster nor the Soulscryer are worth dropping one unit of eels 😐

Hey, I've kind of settled on a similar list to yours, at least in TTS as I build/paint it. I've only played against my friend's Khorne and OSB and for me the Eidolon has been so valuable. Just getting that +1 to wound on Allopex and Turtle shots and tricks with retreating and charging makes it worth it for me. He also generally has free reign because the Turtle takes up so much attention.

My list is basically the same as yours, although last game I used 2x2 Allopex units and want to try 2x3 like yours. Mine would be:

King, Lord of Storm and Sea, Armour of Cythai

Eidolon of the Storm

3x3 Ishlaen Guard

Leviadon

2x3 Allopex

 

I'm kind of back and forth on taking the Battalion, I usually have been (can drop a Shark) but if I were to go first I could pretty easily take out two 5-6 wound heroes or even a big monster before the dust settles.

Personally I think the Allopexes are better than the Morsarr Guard and if kept near to the King, they're at bravery 8 so shouldn't be failing Battleshock.

[DocKeule]

The sharks make really good hammers but. They had a much better output than the Eidolon ever had for me. His spear looks devastating on paper but in game he usually missed about half of his attacks. The sharks (especially in the re-roll ones to hit bubble) did a lot better. 

I love the Eidolon model but I am afraid he is still not worth his points. (The +1 to wound bubble is nice though). I am still unsure if I should get a second turtle and/or more sharks (I have two so far). 

But I think I will wait for the second IDK battletome before I buy anything new. I already have the Namarti that I barely ever use.
 

[Chronos]

29 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

The sharks make really good hammers but. They had a much better output than the Eidolon ever had for me. His spear looks devastating on paper but in game he usually missed about half of his attacks. The sharks (especially in the re-roll ones to hit bubble) did a lot better. 

I love the Eidolon model but I am afraid he is still not worth his points. (The +1 to wound bubble is nice though). I am still unsure if I should get a second turtle and/or more sharks (I have two so far). 

But I think I will wait for the second IDK battletome before I buy anything new. I already have the Namarti that I barely ever use.
 

Yeah, fair enough. I guess three sharks for the same points is hard to beat. For me he's been justified so far, and I've considered giving the artifact that allows re-rolls of wound rolls of 1, at least against melee heavy armies just to make sure the rolls that do hit get through.

 

Do you generally keep your Ishlaen in the Turtle's bubble, or tie up enemy units and then counter strike?

[DocKeule]

I try to have one unit of Ishlaen in the bubble be the closest unit to my opponent to take the shooting. Plus at least one other to shield the king as much as possible because that was one aspect I am still struggling with a lot: Often the king/Volturnos does not make it to round three because he has the bullseye on him from the get go. 

With the two-turtle-build is was kind of easy to keep most units in the bubble of at least one of them most of the time. With just one turtle I think that would take away to much of the mobility. I try to have the Leviadon close to the toughest fights for protection.

Edit: I am also considering downgrading to a generic king, dropping the battalion and the extra command point, to take a second Leviadon instead of one of the Ishlaen-units.

Would look like this:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin

LEADERS
Akhelian King (230)

UNITS
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)
3 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)

BEHEMOTHS
Akhelian Leviadon (340)
Akhelian Leviadon (340)

TOTAL: 1990/2000 WOUNDS: 123

Problems:
- I would go from a two-drop-list to an eight-drop-list so in most games my opponent will dictate the first initiative
- I would have two command points less and I could then only give one extra attack per command point turn three instead of three, so the high tide will probably be a lot less impressive (in my game two days ago the sharks had nine (!) bites each).
- Smaller re-roll bubble for ones to hit and no re-rolls for the battalion. 
- No protection from magic for the generic king. I is much easier to snipe out that way.

Edited April 24, 2021 by DocKeule

[Frowny]

Have people given up on thralls? Most of these lists above give them a tasty +1/+1/+1 save. They are killer and sturdier per point than everything else in the list except the 2+ save stuff. 20 would slot in to a lot of the above lists instead of 2 sharks or a unit of eels. Also, these lists seem to lack bodies.

 

For some of the high drop lists the khainite shadowstallers seem valuable as well

[Chronos]

4 hours ago, Frowny said:

Have people given up on thralls? Most of these lists above give them a tasty +1/+1/+1 save. They are killer and sturdier per point than everything else in the list except the 2+ save stuff. 20 would slot in to a lot of the above lists instead of 2 sharks or a unit of eels. Also, these lists seem to lack bodies.

 

For some of the high drop lists the khainite shadowstallers seem valuable as well

I'm still quite new when it comes to IDK and AoS in general, so my experience is limited. It definitely looks like the Thralls can pump out a lot of damage with probably 3 attacks on 2s and 2s. Quick math would put about 27 damage on a 4+ save. If 2 Sharks put all their attacks into a unit including shooting with the King reroll 1s buff, which I'm going to count because they generally get it, it would be around 3 damage from shooting, then about 8 damage from the Ferocious Bites, and 4 damage from the Hooks and Blades for about 15. So definitely in the Thralls favour for 220 vs 240 points.

 

I guess the thing is it's going to be really hard to get so many 32mm bases into combat, and just the utility of the Sharks shooting and smaller footprint makes me lean that way. Plus the 14" move. Another thing is my opponent has to get through 8 wounds at 3+ before they lose damage output.

 

You could compare them to the Ishlaen guard but I find the rolls of those units to be quite different.

 

I'm also probably not quite good enough yet to pull it off and the sharks look pretty great too!

 

 

 

[DocKeule]

6 hours ago, Frowny said:

Have people given up on thralls? Most of these lists above give them a tasty +1/+1/+1 save. They are killer and sturdier per point than everything else in the list except the 2+ save stuff. 20 would slot in to a lot of the above lists instead of 2 sharks or a unit of eels. Also, these lists seem to lack bodies.

 

For some of the high drop lists the khainite shadowstallers seem valuable as well

Problem with 20 Thralls is how many you are really getting into close combat. (Apart from that: Where do you get all these plus ones to save?).

 

1 hour ago, Chronos said:

I'm still quite new when it comes to IDK and AoS in general, so my experience is limited. It definitely looks like the Thralls can pump out a lot of damage with probably 3 attacks on 2s and 2s. Quick math would put about 27 damage on a 4+ save. If 2 Sharks put all their attacks into a unit including shooting with the King reroll 1s buff, which I'm going to count because they generally get it, it would be around 3 damage from shooting, then about 8 damage from the Ferocious Bites, and 4 damage from the Hooks and Blades for about 15. So definitely in the Thralls favour for 220 vs 240 points.

You only have the third attack against enemies with just one wound. You can't count that in. For them to attack and wound 2+ 2+ you would also have them wholly in the bubbles of the Leviadon and the Eidolon all the time which would slow you down considerably. 

Apart from my doubts about the Eidolon: The output of the Thralls my be a little bit better if you get them all into combat but often you will just crash into your opponents screening units and get stuck there while sharks have a much better chance to attack where it matters. 

But I think it is  not so much that Thralls are considered to be that bad. It is just that the synergies between Namarti and Akhelians are pretty limited. Most players seem to take the mobile approach. You could play them more mixed but you would be a lot more stationary and take more casulties on the way to your opponent. 

[Chronos]

18 hours ago, DocKeule said:

Problem with 20 Thralls is how many you are really getting into close combat. (Apart from that: Where do you get all these plus ones to save?).

 

You only have the third attack against enemies with just one wound. You can't count that in. For them to attack and wound 2+ 2+ you would also have them wholly in the bubbles of the Leviadon and the Eidolon all the time which would slow you down considerably. 

Apart from my doubts about the Eidolon: The output of the Thralls my be a little bit better if you get them all into combat but often you will just crash into your opponents screening units and get stuck there while sharks have a much better chance to attack where it matters. 

But I think it is  not so much that Thralls are considered to be that bad. It is just that the synergies between Namarti and Akhelians are pretty limited. Most players seem to take the mobile approach. You could play them more mixed but you would be a lot more stationary and take more casulties on the way to your opponent. 

Yeah you are definitely correct, I was just trying to give every unit the buffs to see. I think it would be a different story if Thralls had 2" reach.

Allopexes are just so good.

[DocKeule]

22 hours ago, Chronos said:

I think it would be a different story if Thralls had 2" reach.

That would be the No. 1 warscroll-change that I would like to see for the Idoneth. 

I would really love to play more fluffy lists with a Namarti core and Akhelians but at 2000 points I don't see how I could support both styles sufficiently.

I can see a decent Namarti-list but they are more dependent on buff than the Akhelians. You want them wholly within the bubble of a Leviadon. Depending if you use one or two turtles that makes your operation range pretty small.

You also want the enemy units you are currently fighting to be wholly within the void drum bubble to get the +1 to hit. 

You want all fighting units to be in the bubble of the Eidolon of Storm for the +1 to wound. Lotann might be of use as well with +1 bravery and re-roll ones to hit. Eidolon of the Sea would be nice for the +3 bravery but then we have few points left to even field some Namarti.

A Namarti-heavy list would be kind of khorne-ish I guess. A wave of semi-fast glass-cannons walzing to the center und who ever has more models survive the initial clash wins.

Edited April 26, 2021 by DocKeule

[baiardo]

Do you think that with the future reaction to charge is the begins of the end for idk strategy?

Edited April 29, 2021 by baiardo

[Molkaice]

I think it depends on how reactions work.  Can you react to every charge? Do you have to select the reaction before you know you're being charged? Will charges be declared and conducted in a particular order?  Can you delay a reaction to a charge in response only a particular unit?

Is it clear how it will work already or is it all speculation still?

[DocKeule]

We will have to wait for the exact wording (if the rumors are true). 

It depends on the moment, the reaction kicks in. Can the unit that has been charged fall back after the charge-move is finished or does it fall back while the charge is happening and the charge-length is increased by the D6" retreat?

But it might make it more difficult to get the charge as often as one would like. But that would be true for both players.

[Molkaice]

In a way for that to work you'd have to declare a charge, and I'm pretty sure you can just roll and charge whatevers in range.  So would it be like:

1. You charge successfully into a unit

2. Unit retreats

3. You possibly chase?

In that case my question is can I change my target to another one if I'm chasing.  It does seem to add more options which is good, but I think you'll get units stranded from fail charges so shooting and defensive armies will become very powerful.

[Liquidsteel]

Hopefully the charge roll happens after, so there's a chance to catch the unit and instantly destroy them.

[El Antiguo Guardián]

Tournament won yesterday in Madrid with Idoneth. 20 people and high meta list with seraphon, teclisian lumineths, kharadron, tzzench... everywere. I was the only Idoneth.

The list I was running was:

Fuethan

Volturnos with -1 to hit

Eidolon of the Storm with the Cloack

6x Electro eels

2x3 Defensive Eels

2x Sharks with arpoon

1x Shark with net

Leviadon ignoring -1 rend

Corps

1990

 

The 3 drop list that I was using during the last months (you can see reports etc on the channel), and the final version that I want to use on the Milan´s ETC. 

So first game was vs Sylvaneth. Metal realm, 4 objetives and if you score the opponent ones you get 3 points. He plays with the tribe that allows him to make a teleport each turn, and 2 witches (one can cast 2 spells), Durthu with -1 to wound, 2x20 dryads, 5 teleport boys, 6 kurnoth with scytes and 2 unit of 3 kurnouth with blades, a batallion for them and the endless spell that increase the charge range. He start the game and summon another unit of 10 dryads, and I run with everything. I have a double turn but I was far, I killed one witch with my shoots and get in combat. Durthu was vs 3 defensive eels, 2 sharks and the ofensive eels delete 20 dryads and the eidolon kills some dryads of the other point. He have some move combats but at my turn 3 I killed probably everything, so 34-4 I guess.

Next, table 2 vs seraphon, thunderlizard. Kroak, astrolith, priest, 2x10 skins, 5 guards, batallion with 2 bastis and stegadon, 3 salamanders, vortex and the burning head. Objetive: comets (turn 2 the first arrives, etc). I put everything so far, so he starts and then I put some pressure. He did turn 2 and I fail lots of saves so he kills all the sharks and defensive eels but I kill all the salamanders and 13 wounds to the stegadon (he survives rolling good armour saves). I kill the stega with the shooting of my leviadon and I charge with him and Volturnos into Kroak, astrolith, guard and skins. The eidolon won the other flank and I kill everything but Kroak (3-4 wounds) and the bastis, so game was probably mine, but I get the double turn so I got all the points. 38-2.

Game 3, table 1 vs seraphon again, fangs of sotek. Kroak, astrilith, priest, shamman, 2x10 skins, 40 skins, 5 chamaleons, 2x3 salamanders and the vortex. 4 objetives: +1 for heroes, +1 for retaking an objetive. I choose who starts and I said him, so he put a little damage over me because he was so far, and he takes 3 points with the core skins. I retake them with my devensive eels and heroes and I got lots of points and a good position in order to hold the seraphon offensive. I won the double turn and I put pressure over him, but he pass the 4+ roll for flee with the big skin unit. I kill one unit of salamanders and the guard and control the other one with one unit of defensive eels. On his turn, he kill the defensive eels and the eidolon and teleport kroak far away because he was in combat with most of my units. He didn´t have the double turn so I overkill kroak with my ofensive eels, I killed the last salamanders (he sumoned another one) and middle unit of skins. I retake all the points and then I killed the last seraphon heroes. 35-15 for me. 

 

So tournament for the fish boys. I will prepare a video-report during this week... if work allows me haha

[JackStreicher]

The new Warband looks insanely cool!

I wish we‘d get Akhelian Guards on foot as a Unit 😍😍😍

[DocKeule]

They look pretty cool.  Lets see if they get AoS rules as well.