AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Tizianolol]

Excuse me what laurie said about wildwood? We can set up 3 single tree 3" far and 1" far another  single or big wildwood?

[Pennydude]

1 hour ago, Kiekeboe said:

Haha that's great. He said there's another FAQ on the way (month or so) and he has flagged the issue. Let's hope it gets resolved then.

That’s good. I have a tournament in 2 weeks so I’ll have to send a message to the TO asking for their ruling.

[plavski]

1 hour ago, Tizianolol said:

Excuse me what laurie said about wildwood? We can set up 3 single tree 3" far and 1" far another  single or big wildwood?

[Havelocke]

7 hours ago, Abstract_duck said:

Ive never heard that one before, running after the set up. Can more people confirm this?

After taking another look at the rules, I think a strong argument can be made that this is legal. Even more than that, I think you could even make a normal move, if you want to, as well. There are two rules that work together to justify this...

Core 8.0, Last Sentence - Once you have made a normal move, run or retreated with a unit, you cannot pick it again in that phase.

Core FAQ - Q: Some abilities allow a unit to be set up ‘ instead of making a normal move’. Does a unit set up with such an ability count as having moved? A: No, unless the ability specifically states otherwise.

As written, this suggests that you may pick a unit and make a teleport instead of moving, and the unit will not have moved. You may then pick the unit a second time and make a normal move or run, as the rules do not stop you from picking a unit twice, only from moving twice.

It's important to note that the above is only based on exactly what's written in the rules, without giving consideration to common sense. It seems extremely unlikely to me that this is the way the abilities are intended to function.

(As written, this will only work with Spirit Paths and Waypipes. It won't work with Navigate Realmroots or Sinister Ambush, however, because of the first sentence of those abilities states that they take place "at the end of the movement phase". Per the core rules FAQ, this means the ability occurs after all other movement has taken place.)

[Pennydude]

I’d never play it like that where you could teleport with a Treelord and then run.  That’s an extremely narrow interpretation of the rules.

[Quooch]

Hi guys,

what do you think about the last FAQ for our Sylvaneth units? In my opion some changes are unnecessary :-/ e.g. command ability TLA and Kurnoth Hunter. Moreover we lost a part of our allegiance rules.

In addition, one more question: Which experience do you do with destroyed wildwoods? Do your opponents use the new monster rules many times against you?

Actually, i am feel a bit disappointed about the changes :-( .

Thanks for your advice!

[Abstract_duck]

57 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

After taking another look at the rules, I think a strong argument can be made that this is legal. Even more than that, I think you could even make a normal move, if you want to, as well. There are two rules that work together to justify this...

Core 8.0, Last Sentence - Once you have made a normal move, run or retreated with a unit, you cannot pick it again in that phase.

Core FAQ - Q: Some abilities allow a unit to be set up ‘ instead of making a normal move’. Does a unit set up with such an ability count as having moved? A: No, unless the ability specifically states otherwise.

As written, this suggests that you may pick a unit and make a teleport instead of moving, and the unit will not have moved. You may then pick the unit a second time and make a normal move or run, as the rules do not stop you from picking a unit twice, only from moving twice.

It's important to note that the above is only based on exactly what's written in the rules, without giving consideration to common sense. It seems extremely unlikely to me that this is the way the abilities are intended to function.

(As written, this will only work with Spirit Paths and Waypipes. It won't work with Navigate Realmroots or Sinister Ambush, however, because of the first sentence of those abilities states that they take place "at the end of the movement phase". Per the core rules FAQ, this means the ability occurs after all other movement has taken plac

Again it seems to come down to the definition of 'instead'. I'd agree on not doing it , though. Although, what would seem to be new is a rule ambiguity in favor of sylvaneth.

 

You made me reread the new Awakenend Warscroll and navigate realmrootd, and seems like you can explicitly move/retreat into range and teleport once into range of the tree in the same turn. Before you had to explicitly either move or teleport. All in all.. Perfect for those moments where you are not quite close enough to the woods to tele, or piled in just a bit too much. I think this is quite big in using the teleport when you want

[Havelocke]

19 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

I’d never play it like that where you could teleport with a Treelord and then run.  That’s an extremely narrow interpretation of the rules.

 

1 minute ago, Abstract_duck said:

Again it seems to come down to the definition of 'instead'. I'd agree on not doing it , though. Although, what would seem to be new is a rule ambiguity in favor of sylvaneth.

I completely agree with both of you you. I would never use the interpretation I outlined above in one of my own games. As noted in my bold caveat, I don't think it's intended to work that way at all.

While I generally try to follow the rules exactly as written, without trying to make assumptions about what the designers intended, this is an instance in which one interpretation of the rules as written went against an overwhelming mountain of contextual evidence to suggest that the ability should work more or less the way it always has.

Barring a more explicit change to the way teleports have always worked in multiple GW rules sets, I don't think that my argument has legs outside of semantic debate.

3 minutes ago, Abstract_duck said:

You made me reread the new Awakenend Warscroll and navigate realmrootd, and seems like you can explicitly move/retreat into range and teleport once into range of the tree in the same turn.

I noticed this, too. Nice little perk!

4 minutes ago, Quooch said:

Hi guys,

what do you think about the last FAQ for our Sylvaneth units? In my opion some changes are unnecessary 😕 e.g. command ability TLA and Kurnoth Hunter. Moreover we lost a part of our allegiance rules.

In addition, one more question: Which experience do you do with destroyed wildwoods? Do your opponents use the new monster rules many times against you?

Actually, i am feel a bit disappointed about the changes 😞 .

Thanks for your advice!

While the nerf to Kurnoth hunters hurts quite a bit, it's important to note that save re-rolls were removed more or less across the board, so it's a little less painful when considered in that context.

I think the change to the Ancient's command ability was actually a huge buff. The ability to potentially spread a save bonus across our entire army with one command point is hugely valuable, and could make us very resilient against rend when combined with the other sources of save bonuses.

While I'm sad that the simplicity of the Kragnos Wyldwood has been replaced, I am very excited about the new wyldwood warscroll. The ability to get 6 to 9 woods down on the first turn is a whole new world compared to where we were before. Monsters only shut down half of the spirit paths, since the woods can still be used as a destination after being smashed, and it does nothing to spirit paths.

All in all, I think you should feel pretty good about the changes. I've got my first game of 3.0 scheduled for Friday, and I'm actually very optimistic. We'll see how it goes!

[plavski]

I've never been more excited for Sylvaneth  

[Quooch]

12 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

While the nerf to Kurnoth hunters hurts quite a bit, it's important to note that save re-rolls were removed more or less across the board, so it's a little less painful when considered in that context.

I think the change to the Ancient's command ability was actually a huge buff. The ability to potentially spread a save bonus across our entire army with one command point is hugely valuable, and could make us very resilient against rend when combined with the other sources of save bonuses.

While I'm sad that the simplicity of the Kragnos Wyldwood has been replaced, I am very excited about the new wyldwood warscroll. The ability to get 6 to 9 woods down on the first turn is a whole new world compared to where we were before. Monsters only shut down half of the spirit paths, since the woods can still be used as a destination after being smashed, and it does nothing to spirit paths.

All in all, I think you should feel pretty good about the changes. I've got my first game of 3.0 scheduled for Friday, and I'm actually very optimistic. We'll see how it goes!

Thanks a lot for your fast answer!

I agree with about the change to the Ancient. In many situations it could help aus a lot. The chance to get +3 to save rolls with Kurnoth Hunters to negate a rend -2 is huge! But: It is a bit sad, that there are no difference between the units. They all get the same bonus in a different way. We have to try it.

How do you set up 2-3 complete wyldwoods? TLA, deepwood spell and ...? 

I would be very glad about a summary and feedback about your experience on friday  

[Havelocke]

4 minutes ago, Quooch said:

How do you set up 2-3 complete wyldwoods? TLA, deepwood spell and ...?

And the one you get just for being Sylvaneth! If you wanted to really go all in, you could even add Acorn of the Ages to get a grand total of 12 woods on the board. I might have to try that, just for fun.

It's also worth noting, as @Pennydude pointed out, the 3" apart restriction when placing separate wyldwoods does not apply to woods that are already on the board. That should make it very easy to completely infest a large portion of the board on turn one.

[Havelocke]

6 minutes ago, Quooch said:

I would be very glad about a summary and feedback about your experience on friday  

Absolutely! I'll write it up.

[Quooch]

I am looking forward to it!  

[Alpidur]

Hi guys! I try to write a list that I use nex game and I think to use gnarlroot. This is the list, what do you think? I don’t put artifacts spell or battaglions because I need help from you…so:

Warsong revenant 

Treelord acient

 Branchwraith 

Dricha

20 driads 

5 tree revenant 

5 tree revenant 

3 kurnoth whit sword

6 kurnoth with shytes 

 

what do you think about? Is Dricha a choice or is better put an arch revenant and maybe another 3 kurnoth with sword? 

[overtninja]

@Alpidur What sort of battalions and artefacts are you bringing? You should work that out as well, it will help you determine what's best to bring and help define your strategic possiblities. Also, it's been my experience that Drycha is almost always worth taking, she's very strong and versatile.

[Alpidur]

I don’t known at all…warlord battalion is the best chiuse so I can put the general (TLA) and I take the gems for the warsong, I can try to put vanguard battalllion and I have another artifact for the branchwraith or not? Sorry I am new into sylvaneth and AoS so I need practice

[DSB]

Thoughts on this list? I'm a little rusty, but I'm excited because I feel like trees finally have some potential again. It's a 6 drop list, so it has a decent chance of getting priority (matched play mission packs still give prio to the person who drops first). I'd imagine we want to go first to be able to set up trees with as little hindrence as possible, but it that's not the case, I can just do a Line breaker instead. Regardless, all the big trees should be able to hop forward and cause a mess with their +3" charge from spiteswarm while the rest get into position.

I'm not 100% sold on the Spites yet, but Dreadwood still gives some easy teleporting and the dryad factory is still there as backup. I'm also unsure about the endless spells, but I wanted the spiteswarm for the movement bonus and was left with 60pts. The Wyrm might be decent to help the front line now that they go off twice a turn essentially.

Dreadwood 2000pts AoS 3.0 

Warlord and Battle Regiment  

Leaders 

Drycha - 330  *Regrowth  

Branchwraith - 95  *Throne of Vines  *Spiritsong Staff  

Treelord Ancient - 295 *General - Paragon of Terror  *Jewel of Withering  *Regrowth  

Branchwych - 90  *Verdurous Harmony  

Units 

Spite-Revenant x5 - 70

Spite-Revenant x5 - 70

Spite-Revenant x5 - 70

Spite-Revenant x5 - 70

Kurnoth Hunters w/Scythes x6 430

Behemoths 

Treelord - 190

Treelord - 190 

Endless Spells

Spiteswarm Hive 

Gladewyrm  

Total: 2000pts

[Arzalyn]

8 hours ago, Alpidur said:

Hi guys! I try to write a list that I use nex game and I think to use gnarlroot. This is the list, what do you think? I don’t put artifacts spell or battaglions because I need help from you…so:

Warsong revenant 

Treelord acient

 Branchwraith 

Dricha

20 driads 

5 tree revenant 

5 tree revenant 

3 kurnoth whit sword

6 kurnoth with shytes 

 

what do you think about? Is Dricha a choice or is better put an arch revenant and maybe another 3 kurnoth with sword? 

I like the list, it's really close to the main list I'm testing. The unique problem I have with it is that you have exactly 2000 points, 5 cast (possible 6 with the artefacts) and no endless spell. Our spell lore is pretty good, but can be quiet reactive (healing woods, bringing models back, effects that need models near woods) and some times you can end without something to cast. If you want to try to put some endless in, you could drop 10 dryads for one/two endless.

About the artefacts, first you should define who gonna get the Gnarlroot one, the Chalice. It helps you get spell off, which is pretty good on the Branchwraith spell and with the Warsong (as he want high cast rolls for his spell). After that you can think about a second one. The Spiritsong staff is a popular one on the Branchwraith, to give her a second cast and let her cast throne of vines as her first spell, making the second spell much more reliable. You can replicate this with the Chromatic Cogs endless spell though, which should be easy to cast with the Warsong near a wood if he has the Chalice. Other popular artefacts include the new generic one that gives a 5+ ward, the vesperal gem to autocast a spell from our spell lore, seed of rebirth to give a hero some extra life and the crown to support a unit in combat. Mostly of those options would be good on the Ancient, he is a support hero that can hold in combat and that you generally want to keep alive.

Drycha is really good, specially on Gnarlroot as she is a wizard and can fish for some extra 6 rolls with the reroll.

[Arnied3]

Holy ******. I haven't checked up on here in a few days and everything changed .........or not changed   looking at the topics of some of the discussions!

 

Really need to download the rules and get planning. I have to say i am quite excited to see how we fair in 3.0. 

[Brucimus]

On 7/3/2021 at 2:34 PM, a74xhx said:

Hmm..... FAQ no longer states you can use the old citadel wood models.

I don't suppose anyone knows if we can use the old woods. I've got so many 🤞

[Havelocke]

12 hours ago, Alpidur said:

what do you think about? Is Dricha a choice or is better put an arch revenant and maybe another 3 kurnoth with sword? 

All of @Arzalyn's advice is very good, so I won't repeat any of it. I do have two additional suggestions, though.

First, I would consider swapping out your Sword Kurnoths for a Treelord instead. The Kurnoths definitely hit harder, but your list isn't hurting for damage output. The Treelord offers some utility advantages over the swords, with a free teleport, ranged attack, and a stomp to make enemies fight last.

Second, I would strongly recommend the Spiteswarm Hive when considering your endless spells. It offers a powerful charge bonus alongside a very useful armor save buff in a single spell, and it's only 40 points. I think it's one of the best endless spells in the game right now.

3 hours ago, DSB said:

Thoughts on this list?

Looks pretty good overall! I do think you should swap out your Branchwych for an Arch-Revenant, though. To get the fifteen points you need, you could swap the Treelord Ancient for a Warsong Revenant, or you could swap out your Gladewyrm for some Chronomantic Cogs. If you do this, I would also combine a pair of Spite Revenant units into a block of ten, in order to get a larger unit for teleports and the Arch-Rev's command ability.

If you do take the Warsong and the Arch Revenant, it leaves you with five points left over. In this list, I would use it to swap out the Gladewyrm for a Horrorghast, in order to force some bad battleshock tests!

When it comes to Battalion organization, I don't know that a six-drop list is going to be taking first turn reliably. We'll have to wait and see how the meta shakes out, obviously, but a large number of lists I've seen taken in battle reports so far focus on Warlord + Battle Regiment for a five-drop list. I think we're going to see that be the standard number for armies that care about first turn, while occasionally seeing one-drop lists from armies that want to go all in on an alpha-strike or something.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Havelocke

[Alpidur]

Thanks guys, to all of you. So we can try to do this:

Gnarlroot

 

Warsong revenant (general, chalice)

treelord acient (generic artifact 5+ ward)

branchwraith 

Dricha

10 dryads

5 tree revenant

5 tree revenant 

6 kurnoth with scythes 

1 treelord

Choronomatic cogs

Spiteswarm give

 Need 45 point more…what can I take?

 

Battalions: warlord (Warsong, acient, branchwraith dryads, tree revenant) 

 

i Love treelord at all so I can put it with a lot of interest!  🙂

What do you think? I need to change the artifact? I think it’s a problem to me choose the best for the list

 

edit: to use warlord I need to put acient general…so I am confused 🙂)

 

re edit: what about umbreal spellportal?

Edited July 6, 2021 by Alpidur

[Aezeal]

I think there is some messing with the move phase in some posts here.

Now I'm not a native English speaker so I'll not try to argue about  rules as written but the rules intention as it has been rewritten is very clear IMHO

In the movement phase you can only pick a unit ONCE to either move, run or retreat.

If you do something instead of moving, running or retreating it is your pick of doing something with that unit in that phase and it can only be picked once. So no teleporting and doing anything else movementphase related. Not moving, not running and not retreating... and certainly not doing ANOTHER 'instead' of move (which following the same faulty logic would also be allowed since you still wouldn't have moved).

The charge (mentioned somewhere) is a completely separate phase and doesn't come into this and if you can charge you can also run isn't valid.

[Wachamba]

22 minutes ago, Alpidur said:

edit: to use warlord I need to put acient general…so I am confused 🙂)

Actually you dont need. For Warlord you need 1 commander(Hero not general) 2 heroes less 10 wounds and 1 unit.

[Havelocke]

16 minutes ago, Alpidur said:

Need 45 point more…what can I take?

One option would be to leave the list as it is. Coming in at 1955 means you'll usually be getting your selected triumph. Taking the 'inspired' triumph to get some extra power when you go in with your Scythes would be a good pick.

You could also remove your 10 Dryads and add 10 Spite Revenants instead. That would put you at 2000 exactly.

17 minutes ago, Alpidur said:

What do you think? I need to change the artifact? I think it’s a problem to me choose the best for the list

I think that the +5 ward save is a good choice, but I would also consider the Vesperal Gem. If you select Verdurous Harmony as your Treelord Ancient's spell, getting a guaranteed Kurnoth back is very powerful.

18 minutes ago, Alpidur said:

edit: to use warlord I need to put acient general…so I am confused 🙂)

Picking your general and assigning units to battalions are separate choices. You can choose any hero as your general, even if they are filling a 'sub-commander' slot in a battalion. I would recommend picking the Warsong Revenant, because they cast two spells, and are more likely to trigger the general's command trait.

In your list, I'd suggest filling out your Warlord battalion with Drycha, Warsong, Branchwraith, and one unit of Tree Revenants, then putting everything else into a battle regiment.