AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Landohammer]

17 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

 

1. Sylvaneth's battletome remains one of the most well-balanced from a "healthy ecosystem" POV, i.e., if you take a solid list to a tournament, and you're reasonably experienced, you've got a shot at going 3-2. You could have an outside shot at going 4-1, but 5-0 will be exceptionally rare across the entire ecosystem. I think that's reflective of a "well-balanced" battletome. Unfortunately, from that POV, many other battletomes are not as well-balanced.

I kind of agree.  Sylvaneth has a relatively healthy internal balance until you get to Kurnoth Hunters. They are quite a few power levels above the majority of the army. Also we are extremely character heavy. Externally we were decent at launch but unfortunately, the power creep appears to have skyrocketed shortly after our release (with the sole exception of maybe Cities which is probably fine barring a few specific units). 

I personally aim for 3-2 at GTs (and 2-1 at one dayers) but I find that my opponent's unfamiliarity with my army is usually more valuable than my personal skill. It seems there are a lot of Sylvaneth hobbyist but not a lot of Sylvaneth GT players lol. 

 

a) A personal desire for Heartwood to be among the most competitive, since it presented the chance to play "combined arms." In light of Wyldwoods blocking our own LoS (entailing that Kurnoth Bows and other shooters must be more exposed), the nature of Look Out, Sir!, the greater prevalence of -1 to hit (and stacking it for -2), and the amount of higher durability, I'm not that confident that combined-arms Heartwood is an actual choice for top-end play. 

I just don't see  Heartwood as being competitive in a traditional tournament scene. Kurnoth Bows, even buffed, are just not efficient enough. If I wanted to push shooting into my lists (which I agree we need in many matchups), our allies are a lot more useful. Sisters of the Watch, Celestar Ballistas, and maybe even Blacksmoke Battery are much more efficient.

 

17 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

b) Dreadwood's CA as arguably the strongest element in the book, providing incredible mobility that both bypasses Wyldwoods and pairs effectively with Spiteswarm Hive, allowing you to teleport a threat piece anywhere and have the chance to get a 6+ charge with a CP RR.

Agreed. Winterleaf is more consistent but Dreadwood provides an element of surprise that can give you a fighting chance in poor matchups.

4. With all of that in mind, at the moment I'm struggling to square this seemingly round hole: A clear strength of Sylvaneth is melee, but the faction is staring down the barrel of a number of matchups where a dominant melee focus doesn't appear to be the answer, and the faction's ranged damage options are...limited, to put it mildly. 

This right here. 100% agreed.

We are no longer a movement/magic/resilience army. We are now a dedicated melee army in a field full of melee armies that are better than us lol. I will continue to play Sylvaneth in tournaments because I love them, but part of me can't help but look toward Living City as the superior competitive option. 

 

[Landohammer]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:49 AM, Kloefklaffer said:

Hello everyone, I'm getting my sister in Aos and she wants to play sylvaneth so I'm looking for a bit of advice. I have ordered a 1 k army consisting of:

1 branchwraith

2branchwitch

Durthu

1 treelord ancient

48 dryads

 

So with this she could go for 2x 10 dryads 28 for summoning or 1x 30 dryads 18 for summoning and leave out 1 branch witch. What do you think about this list for 1 k? 

 

Further I have been thinking about a 2k list. Wanting to add drycha and 6 kurnoth hunters. But what else? 

I'm not sure about allariele as I never played with models costing so many points myself. 

My sister dislikes both the revenant types because of the ghostly look so we prefer not to use them. 

Should we go with 3x 10 dryads as battle line and add more 3 more kurnoth hunters. This feels odd as the dryads no longer have the save bonus. 

Perhaps 3x 20 dryads?  And 20 for summoning. Or is having 80 dryads to much. I kinda like the idea of a big swarm. What are your thoughts? 

 

PS we are not competitive, so fluffy and fun lists are more important than winning

1- Branchwraith

1-Durth

1-Treelord

30 Dryads

10 Dryads (use the extra Branchwyches as Dryad Champions to reach 40 dryads)

Branchwyches, while cheap casters, don't bring a lot of value. In most cases I would just prefer a second Branchwraith. I would also recommend you field the TLA as a vanilla Treelord for lower point games.

How many forests do you have? If you don't have at least 2+ forests the TLA loses a lot of value. 

 

[Nixon]

I must confess that I am a Sylvaneth hobbyist and not a Sylvaneth GT player. 

But it was really nice of you @scrubyandwells to post here again. I value your insight.

This goes for you as well @Landohammer. Thanks. 

[scrubyandwells]

17 hours ago, Shmaravoz said:

Hello children of the forest. Check out the new Battle Report published by BulldogHammer Sylvaneth vs Gloomspite Gitz 

Greatly enjoyed this batrep! Just subscribed. Would love to see one with the Winterleaf list you guys mentioned.

Edited May 12, 2020 by scrubyandwells

[Shmaravoz]

1 minute ago, scrubyandwells said:

Greatly enjoyed this batrep! Just subscribed. Would love to see one with the Winterleaf list you guys mentioned.

Thanks for the note scrubyandwells,  the plan is to release a Winterleaf Glade report with Kurnoth Hunters list. Make sure you subscribe to the utube channel to receive a notification once it released. Cheers. 

[scrubyandwells]

Hi @Landohammer, thanks for your thoughts! Just following up: 

1. Yeah, the book really leans into melee KH. If, e.g., Wyldwoods didn't block our own LoS, I think we'd see both KH Bows and Drycha a little more often (since we wouldn't have to expose them as much), even with KH Bows at 4's to hit in a game with so many ways to make them 5's or even 6's to hit.

Previously, Hurricanums probably kept KH Bows at 4's to hit in their base profile. It's possible that CoS Hurricanums are still keeping KH Bows at 4's to hit, since dropping them to 3's means that they could be 2's in CoS, at which point they could be attractive to spam again, similar to how they were spammed in 2016 in Mixed Order. Regardless, from the POV of playing, you know, Sylvaneth, rather than Sylvaneth units in some other faction, KH Bows staying at both 4's to hit and 2 attacks, when Wyldwoods also block our own LoS, was one of the Day One flaws of our 2019 battletome.

2. Yeah my heart wanted Heartwood to be top-table viable when the book came out, but reality quickly got in the way. On Fb, someone had mentioned 20 Irondrakes + a Runelord + Bridge in Ironbark. That would be a meaningful way to add reliable ranged damage, at a decent price, but...a Sylvaneth army with stunties? That's a high price to pay.

3. I've been impressed by the damage output of Winterleaf, but still suspect the lack of meaningful ranged damage may tend to make it fall apart on top tables vs experienced players. Generally, with Winterleaf and Dreadwood, I tend to think we're looking at a few baskets we're trying to cover: 

a. "Business in the front, party in the back" – a classic pattern in AoS/WHFB, expressed most strongly right now by Seraphon and Tzeentch, where you have your bodies in the front for chaff/screening/zoning/obj scoring (Skinks; Horrors), and you have your damage dealers in the back (Kroak + co + Salamanders; Flamers + Wizards), ideally with at least one teleport, allowing you to put one of your damage dealers in a key spot to deplete or destroy a key target. Other armies can showcase this pattern, such as Skaven and CoS, but I suspect not as well, at the moment, as Seraphon and Tzeentch.

As long as Seraphon and Tzeentch players have built enough chaff into their lists to multi-layer screen their damage dealers, and as long as they position well during the game, I tend to think that Winterleaf and Dreadwood builds will have poor exchanges of value against those armies, especially if we're unable to cast spells, like Spiteswarm Hive, which provides such a crucial mobility buff.

At the same time, I think these kinds of rock-paper-scissors matchups is another argument in favor of the double turn mechanic, since, in this case, it could open up the potential to break through your opponent's screens and reach one of their critical pieces with one of your hammers.

b. Support-synergy-centric – armies centered around the buffs/debuffs of their support pieces, like Fyreslayers, DoK, OBR, and others. Fyreslayers and DoK, in particular, of course, are much more difficult for a melee army to deal with when their heroes, especially their 5-6W heroes, can continue to stay on the board. Same with OBR when 20 Mortek Guard are surrounding a Harvester. 

c. "Intensify forward firepower!" – KO...and KO. Their own basket.  It's possible that, with Spiteswarm Hive and a ton of KH, they wouldn't be able to do enough damage to prevent us from reaching them and doing significant damage in return. Alternatively, we focus on out-scoring on objs, and try to soak up the damage (and our obj points) for as long as we can.

d. "My melee out-melees your melee" – IDK, Slaanesh, FEC, Warclans, BCR, Khorne...on paper, this is the one that looks the most even and dependent on generalship. I haven't had enough games vs armies in this basket, but suspect that we have a reasonable shot in most matchups, although it's still unclear if we can get away with builds that don't have a meaningful answer to ASF/ASL.

[Landohammer]

@scrubyandwells

ASF was a huge problem in WHF and its frustrating to see it make a return in AOS. I always found it super un-fun to set up and execute super strong strategies just to end up losing my units before they even got to swing, especially when its during my own turn. Fortunately with the hard nerfs to Slaanesh, this has been mitigated to some extent. 

More concerning is the prevalance of flying shooting units. This completely circumvents our forests and leads to situations where you can never really catch what is killing you (also reminiscent of WHF but generally mobile units didn't hit this hard). I think the future success of Sylvaneth armies relies on finding ways to deal ranged damage. 

Living City is so tempting to me because they can essentially cherry-pick our strong units like Hunters and Drycha, while also having access to superior shooting and support units. This on top of having any army-wide deepstrike, a free heal every turn, and the insanity of the Wardroth horn. 

I know the deepstrike isn't as good as the Dreadwood teleport, but its pretty dang close. And Phoenix Guard, Iron drakes or Sisters of the Watch  in battleline make Spites and Dryads seem kinda tame in comparison.

 

 

 

[T e e t h p a s t e]

Context: I am working on some big conversions. These conversions are giant ice trolls (Around the size of the troggoth hag/ great unclean one).

Anyway, the "trolls" can run as: Great Unclean Ones, The Glotkin, Troggoth Hags, Treelords and Alarielle (In a twisted form of Sylvaneth). Where the forefront of my mind is on the cool, it would still be nice if the list was still somewhat strong. As such, the trolls would run as Treelords or Spirit of Durthu(s?) and Alarielle.

List 1:
Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Glade: Winterleaf

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (600)
- General
- Spells: Throne of Vines
Branchwraith (80)
- Spells: Regrowth
Branchwraith (80)
- Spells: The Dwellers Below
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- Artefact: Frozen Kernel
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Spirit of Durthu (300)

Battleline
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker

Warscroll Battalions
Outcasts (100)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Malevolent Maelstrom (10)

The aim of this list is to slingshot as many Trees (or trolls, in this case) into the enemy as possible and just... well kill. Spite Revenants hold objectives or flank where possible and the Branchwraiths act as supportive as possible with summons. The Emerald Lifeswarm I am not 100% on. I thought it would be good to keep my trees alive on top of Alarielle doing it as well. As for the Malevolent Maelstrom I just had 10 points to spare. In which case I could drop both endless spells for Geminid.

 

 

List 2:
Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Glade: Winterleaf

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (600)
- General
- Spells: Throne of Vines
Branchwraith (80)
- Spells: Regrowth
Branchwraith (80)
- Spells: The Dwellers Below
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- Artefact: Frozen Kernel
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike

Battleline
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker

Warscroll Battalions
Outcasts (100)
Outcasts (100)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)

Same gameplan, just with more battleline available and one less tree. The Chronomantic Cogs aid in keeping the trees as mobile as possible since their weak point is them being so slow.

Now, I have never played Sylvaneth. I do not know what is a good battleline, what is a bad battleline and what the general game plan of Sylvaneth is. Hence why I am here to ask for help.

The minimum requirments is Alarielle and two other big things. The max being Alarielle and three other big things.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Popisdead]

On 5/11/2020 at 2:03 PM, Kloefklaffer said:

I'm sure dryads are staying they feel too iconic to get rid of. I'm not sure what you mean by trying to scrounge more. They are readily available in boxes of 16. Perhaps is misunderstand the sentence.

I do understand the horror of getting models in those tiny blister packs. I have 20 old metal furies myself. 

I meant you have 48, see if you can find someone who will sell or give you 2 so you can run 30, 10, 10.  That would do pretty good as a start as you can then with the Branchwraith play the battalion which is always handy.  

I would really hope Dryads are re-sculpted.  The Revenant prices keep them from being sold on mass.  Plus they could make them fit more with the current trend of aesthetic for Sylvaneth.  I would also hate to see my 70 get moved into the Compendium/Index/Legends.

Haha I have 12 Harpies.  Oh man,.. just,.. it's a mix of nostalgia of buying blister packs as a kid to what's sensible now.

On 5/11/2020 at 6:44 PM, Shmaravoz said:

Hello children of the forest. Check out the new Battle Report published by BulldogHammer Sylvaneth vs Gloomspite Gitz 

I appreciate the bat rep is on the shorter side of time.  90+ minute bat reps are too long.

 

Regarding the Scruby & Wells comment I think there is a noticeable bit wrong with the book that seems to hold the army back from stronger standings.  There doesn't seem to be a strong magical component, Ancients lack at least a second cast,, the Treelords have poor damage output, Alarielle lacks a damage prevention roll, you have a lot tied directly into having woods (and likely dryad spamming which is the next part of a thread in that direction), which leads to specific builds.  I think there are a few warscrolls with low number of attacks but a 6 does MWs in some manner (talon of Dwingling, impaling thingy?  if you played 6 rounds of combat that would come up once.  That kind of writing seems like such a weird inclusion.   Maybe it's just me; but Drycha's MW ability was done well.  

@Landohammer hit it perfectly with ASF being dumb in 8th ed and also being dumb in AoS now.  Particularly as it's convoluted.  Warhammer Weekly wrote a 4 diagram chart of how to follow it and I still didn't get it all (granted I'm not a tournament player any longer so I don't know all the armies).  I also agree with him regarding I'm wanting to play Wanderers with Sylvaneth support as a CoS army.  

If you look at the book and what comes after it is clear Sylvaneth had their hay-day 4 years ago, and the re-wrote, meant to bring the wording inline with AoS 2.0 has just hamstrung it.

However.. the glades are mostly well done and even the other tables of weapons, items, abilities have some good stuff in there.  I feel the book is 75-80% well" done but will maybe get weaker as we move forward.  I don't know the fix either.  With Beasts of Chaos I am fairly firm that other than Ungors and Bestigors the Warscrolls and subfactions need a re-write (why make Warherd,.. weaker? looking at you command ability).  I hope Sylvaneth isn't that way.  I did see some lesser popular builds show up in forums and Bat Reps.  the Lords of the Clan in Gnarlroot I Think?  that's what we want.  More variation in our book.

 

Also,.. I don't know where this will land but with Shadespire we saw all the warbands get armies.  Beastgrave gave us a Sylvaneth half-aelf half animal warband of little Danny DEvito's from Disney's Hercules.  Wade PRice flubbed on Warhammer TV that was the AoS re-imagining of Wood Aelves.  A manager commented Covid changed a lot of releases but we could possibly see some form of Aelf return to Sylvaneth and the rest of the army get rounded out.  God I want that so bad.  They could phase out Wanderers then and I would buy a metric ton of Ungors to convert everything up haha.

[Incineroar87]

What are the typical Dreadwood / Winterleaf Kurnoth spam lists like these days ?

[Landohammer]

20 hours ago, T e e t h p a s t e said:

Context: I am working on some big conversions. These conversions are giant ice trolls (Around the size of the troggoth hag/ great unclean one).

 

Same gameplan, just with more battleline available and one less tree. The Chronomantic Cogs aid in keeping the trees as mobile as possible since their weak point is them being so slow.

Now, I have never played Sylvaneth. I do not know what is a good battleline, what is a bad battleline and what the general game plan of Sylvaneth is. Hence why I am here to ask for help.

The minimum requirments is Alarielle and two other big things. The max being Alarielle and three other big things.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Here are a couple of overall suggestions that you could apply to either of your lists.

-Never take more than three units of Spites. Between your double battallion taxes and your spites, you have 560pts invested in battleline. I imagine you are trying to unlock artefacts for Durthu, but I feel like you are overly investing into Durthu. I would recommend you take 3 units of 10 spites, a single outcast battallion, and a single Durthu. If you really want to use your other Treelord models, then just field them as vanilla Treelords. Remember that Durthu only has 3 attacks when he isn't near a forest. So spamming him is usually counter-productive. One is plenty.

-Don't bother with emerald lifeswarm. The lore spells of Regrowth and Verdant Blessing accomplish the same goal but are free and can't help your opponent. If you really want a healing endless spell for the purposes of blocking, just take the Gladewyrm. 

-Take Spiteswarm Hive instead of Cogs. Its cheaper and can only help Sylvaneth units. Cogs helps your opponent just as much as it helps you.

-Don't make Alarielle your General. As a special character she can't take  command traits. 

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Landohammer

[T e e t h p a s t e]

3 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Here are a couple of overall suggestions that you could apply to either of your lists.

-Never take more than three units of Spites. Between your double battallion taxes and your spites, you have 560pts invested in battleline. I imagine you are trying to unlock artefacts for Durthu, but I feel like you are overly investing into Durthu. I would recommend you take 3 units of 10 spites, a single outcast battallion, and a single Durthu. If you really want to use your other Treelord models, then just field them as vanilla Treelords. Remember that Durthu only has 3 attacks when he isn't near a forest. So spamming him is usually counter-productive. One is plenty.

-Don't bother with emerald lifeswarm. The lore spells of Regrowth and Verdant Blessing accomplish the same goal but are free and can't help your opponent. If you really want a healing endless spell for the purposes of blocking, just take the Gladewyrm. 

-Take Spiteswarm Hive instead of Cogs. Its cheaper and can only help Sylvaneth units. Cogs helps your opponent just as much as it helps you.

-Don't make Alarielle your General. As a special character she can't take  command traits. 

 

Thanks for the reply!

Looking at what you've suggested, does this look any good?

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Glade: None

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (600)
- Spells: Throne of Vines
Branchwraith (80)
- Spells: Regrowth
Branchwraith (80)
- Spells: Treesong
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- General: Warsinger
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Spirit of Durthu (300)
Spirit of Durthu (300)

Battleline
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Spiteswarm Hive (50)
The Burning Head (30)

Gameplan:

- Deploy everything as close to the back of the board as possible around some woods with Spite-Revenants and Branchwraiths for objective control. Sit Alarielle as close to their line as possible.
- Throne of Vines and Verdant Blessing a wood into their back line with Alarielle, casting anything else that is necessary.
- Cast Chronomantic Cogs and Spiteswarm Hive with the two Branchwraiths.
- Spirit Walk the three Spirit of Durthu around the woods that is in their back line. With the aid of Chronomantic Cogs, Spiteswarm Hive and Warsinger charge your three Spirit of Durthu into whatever you see fit. They should be in range of the woods for Wrathful Guardian.
- Alarielle can do what is needed with her fast movement and high damage. She can also use Navigate Realmroots if need be.
- Going into next turn, you have Chronomantic Cogs, Spiteswarm Hive and Warsigner to help your Spirit of Durthu travel the board.

Extras:
- The Burning Head can help with re-rolling ones for your Spirit of Durthu.
- The Branchwraiths can heal, move forests and summon dryads for more objective control/ board control.
- Alarielle can fill many roles. She can support, be a damage dealer or keep the board under control with mobility.

As for Chronomantic Cogs I am not sure as to what to replace it with. What do you think of The Burning Head as well? Is re-rolling ones needed here?
If need be, I could drop one Spirit of Durthu for a Tree Lord Ancient, for a guaranteed woods at the start of the game.
Grove wise, I could go for Winterleaf but then I lose out on Warsinger.

What are your guys and gals' thoughts?

[Landohammer]

7 minutes ago, T e e t h p a s t e said:

 

- Deploy everything as close to the back of the board as possible around some woods with Spite-Revenants and Branchwraiths for objective control. Sit Alarielle as close to their line as possible.
- Throne of Vines and Verdant Blessing a wood into their back line with Alarielle, casting anything else that is necessary.
- Cast Chronomantic Cogs and Spiteswarm Hive with the two Branchwraiths.
- Spirit Walk the three Spirit of Durthu around the woods that is in their back line. With the aid of Chronomantic Cogs, Spiteswarm Hive and Warsinger charge your three Spirit of Durthu into whatever you see fit. They should be in range of the woods for Wrathful Guardian.
- Alarielle can do what is needed with her fast movement and high damage. She can also use Navigate Realmroots if need be.
- Going into next turn, you have Chronomantic Cogs, Spiteswarm Hive and Warsigner to help your Spirit of Durthu travel the board.

Extras:
- The Burning Head can help with re-rolling ones for your Spirit of Durthu.
- The Branchwraiths can heal, move forests and summon dryads for more objective control/ board control.
- Alarielle can fill many roles. She can support, be a damage dealer or keep the board under control with mobility.

As for Chronomantic Cogs I am not sure as to what to replace it with. What do you think of The Burning Head as well? Is re-rolling ones needed here?
If need be, I could drop one Spirit of Durthu for a Tree Lord Ancient, for a guaranteed woods at the start of the game.
Grove wise, I could go for Winterleaf but then I lose out on Warsinger.

What are your guys and gals' thoughts?

I think the plan is fine, though again personally i'm not a huge fan of multiple Durthu's, it could be  fun to send all three via Spirit Walk. 

Burning Head is not a good idea for Durthu. Yes it gives reroll 1's, but it also does d3 mortals.  Durthu brackets REALLY hard after 3 wounds. His sword goes from a flat 6 damage to d6. If you really need to reroll 1's then just use the generic command ability. 

Finally it looks like you dropped your Winterleaf Glade for the ability to choose a command trait and artefact. I think this is a bit self-defeating since exploding 6's (and Frozen Kernel) available to all those Durthu's will be really helpful. Remember that all characters can use the reroll charge command ability for 1CP. 

 

 

 

 

[T e e t h p a s t e]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

I think the plan is fine, though again personally i'm not a huge fan of multiple Durthu's, it could be  fun to send all three via Spirit Walk. 

Burning Head is not a good idea for Durthu. Yes it gives reroll 1's, but it also does d3 mortals.  Durthu brackets REALLY hard after 3 wounds. His sword goes from a flat 6 damage to d6. If you really need to reroll 1's then just use the generic command ability. 

Finally it looks like you dropped your Winterleaf Glade for the ability to choose a command trait and artefact. I think this is a bit self-defeating since exploding 6's (and Frozen Kernel) available to all those Durthu's will be really helpful. Remember that all characters can use the reroll charge command ability for 1CP. 

 

 

 

 

The multiple Durthu's come in the sense of a themed army I am doing, with large nurgle-like troll conversions. They can run as: Great Unclean Ones, Troggoth Hags or a twisted form of Sylvaneth in the form of Treelords and Durthu's etc. So I know the list will never be top tier, but it would be fun to be somewhat competitive, hence three Durthu's and Alarielle.

If I take Winterleaf, do you still think I should take Chronomantic Cogs?

Forgot about the generic command abilities, so yes I will remove The Burning Head, thanks for that.

So I would be looking at something like this:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Glade: Winterleaf

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (600)
- Spells: Throne of Vines
Branchwraith (80)
- Spells: Regrowth
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- General: My Heart is Ice
- Artefact: Frozen Kernel
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Spirit of Durthu (300)

Battleline
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker

Warscroll Battalions
Outcasts (100)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Spiteswarm Hive (50)
Malevolent Maelstrom (10) [Because I had 10 points]

Does this seem more what you had in mind?

What do you think of swapping out a Durthu for a Treelord Ancient, or do you think Alarielle is the weak link here overall?

[Landohammer]

44 minutes ago, T e e t h p a s t e said:

The multiple Durthu's come in the sense of a themed army I am doing, with large nurgle-like troll conversions. They can run as: Great Unclean Ones, Troggoth Hags or a twisted form of Sylvaneth in the form of Treelords and Durthu's etc. So I know the list will never be top tier, but it would be fun to be somewhat competitive, hence three Durthu's and Alarielle.

If I take Winterleaf, do you still think I should take Chronomantic Cogs?

Forgot about the generic command abilities, so yes I will remove The Burning Head, thanks for that.

So I would be looking at something like this:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Glade: Winterleaf

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (600)
- Spells: Throne of Vines
Branchwraith (80)
- Spells: Regrowth
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- General: My Heart is Ice
- Artefact: Frozen Kernel
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Spirit of Durthu (300)

Battleline
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker
Spite-Revenants (60)
- Shadestalker

Warscroll Battalions
Outcasts (100)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Spiteswarm Hive (50)
Malevolent Maelstrom (10) [Because I had 10 points]

Does this seem more what you had in mind?

What do you think of swapping out a Durthu for a Treelord Ancient, or do you think Alarielle is the weak link here overall?

I think this list is 1000x better in every way. Great job! I  think the Cogs may be a bit of overkill since the Hive will give you +3 to charge and you can just reroll whoever fails, but I can't really think of a better use of the points. Just remember that each wizard can only summon one endless spell per turn. 

I don't think Alarielle is weak here at all. The Durthu's will appreciate her AOE heal and command ability. And she can provide pressure from the front while the Durthus teleport. However just make sure you have a decent unit for her to summon.

If she doesn't use her free summon then she is terribly overcosted. Her base cost assumes you summon something decent like Kurnoth Hunters or a Treelord. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Landohammer

[Shmaravoz]

New Battle Report is here! Subscribe, Hit Like, and most importantly ENJOY!!!

 

[Shmaravoz]

On 5/12/2020 at 2:57 PM, scrubyandwells said:

Greatly enjoyed this batrep! Just subscribed. Would love to see one with the Winterleaf list you guys mentioned.

We've just posted the Battlereport. Check it out and let us know your thoughts! We have also mentioned you in this video :)))  Hope you enjoy!

Edited May 28, 2020 by Shmaravoz

[Lanoss]

@Popisdead I agree. The book is about 75% well done but there’s just something fundamentally missing. And I’ve given it some thought to perhaps fix.
Points drops, I do not think are the answer. That may be an easy solution but would not make the army work any better. 
Although I think a new unit would be welcomed I do not think it would save the army. 
I agree some warscrolls need some tweaking (Tl, TLA in particular) that, I feel requires a new book release no?

Some changes to wargroves would be nice. They could possibly be released in a WD like a lot of the battalions they’ve been doing. Iron bark could give +1 save or reduce damage by 1 as an ability. Oakenbrow could make Treelords battleline. 
BUT, the key change I think that should happen and could easily be implemented is a change to the Wyldwood warscroll. Think about it. It’s a single terrain warscroll, easily printed in a GH, and is a key part to our army (well at least that’s it’s purpose, woods are less important imo than in our previous book). So why not update that warscroll and give the Syls some added abilities beyond our - teleport into woods to start, immune to bee are battleshock around a single terrain piece - they’re pretty average imo

Id like to see - Syls wholly within 3” of a wyldwood receive cover (including monsters). OR Syls units wholly within 6” of a wyldwood receive a 6++ save and heal 1 wound at the start of each hero phase. 
and change the charge phase mechanic to a 5+ rather than a 6+
 

Something like this I feel would bring the army back to where it was previously, be more fun and more competitive 

In my opinion anyway 

[Popisdead]

1 hour ago, Lanoss said:

Points drops,

...

I feel requires a new book release no?

 

I agree.  Just like BoC, points drops help get some play out of it but both armies need a Jervis-written book

[scrubyandwells]

Hi all,

Just wanted to start sharing some thoughts on our battletome's (extensive) positives, and some issues that stand out (IMO), beginning with the latter. 

I'll make additions as time allows. Appreciate any thoughts, differing views, etc.

In general, as mentioned before, I think our battletome is mostly reflective of the power level we would want for all battletomes. It's a fair book, with reasonably good internal balance. It's not a "tier 1" battletome, and shouldn't be.

Issues:

1. Treelord Ancient remaining a 1-cast/unbind wizard. The lack of 2-cast/unbind on TLA really stood out day 1. It remains a problem, even with its point drop to 260. By comparison, e.g.:

a. A Grey Seer on Screaming Bell is 240 with 2-cast/unbind, a 5+ FNP (feel no pain)/DPR (damage prevention roll), and a # of other valuable elements that make it a key cog in many Skaventide lists.

b. A Verminlord Warbringer is 280, with 2-cast/unbind, 5+ FNP, an excellent spell, solid combat output, etc. 

c. An Abhorrant Archregent is 240, with 2-cast/unbind + a CA to summon 130, 170, or 200 points once/game, making it effectively a 110-, 70-, or 40-point equivalent model.

Other examples could be given as well (Cities of Sigmar Hallowheart Wizards, Gaunt Summoners at 240/260 that summon 200 points of Horrors, etc.).

As one example of the 1-cast impact: A TLA with Regrowth is common, but it has a meaningful built-in spell as well — Awakening the Wood. Since the TLA is 1-cast, though, Regrowth usually takes precedent, so you often won't get to use Awakening the Wood.

A 1-cast/unbind TLA exacerbates other issues as well, e.g., it weakens Lords of the Clan battalion builds, which are already on the back foot; and it places greater pressure on keeping a 5W Branchwraith alive with the Spiritsong Stave + Throne of Vines (+ often Balewind Vortex) combo, which gives us a mutli-cast wizard outside of Alarielle.

TL:DR — Sylvaneth should have a built-in 2-cast/unbind wizard outside of Alarielle, a 600 point investment.

2. Tree-Revenants still hitting on 4's. 1x5 Tree-Revs at 80 remain valuable for their core utility, e.g.: keeping opponents honest (i.e. not allowing them to leave objs), grabbing an obj (especially late game), and teleporting them in as a key screen/zone. In a 1x5 unit, though, they've always struggled to offer any reliable chip damage in combat. They average ~2.67 damage vs 4+ save (so at times you'll do nothing), or ~3 damage vs 5+ save. (Re: 1x10 for 160 — it's a tough ask in light of how easily they die.) If they were hitting on 3's, however, they'd gain an additional point of total damage on avg via 1x5 in combat. 

One point of additional damage may not seem like much, but I think it's meaningful, and reasonable. It also makes 1x10 Tree-Revs more attractive as a unit both to take and to actually buff, such as spending a CP (and all CP are precious in Sylvaneth) to give them +1 attack via an Arch-Rev or Harvestboon. 

One issue is whether 3's to hit would harm the equation of value between 1x5 Spite-Revs at 60 vs 1x5 Tree-Revs at 80. I don't think it would. The 20-point difference between them remains relevant, and 1x5 Spite-Revs would still provide excellent value at 60 points. They're also essential to one of the best (and most utilized) buys in our battletome: 3x5 Spite-Revs + Outcasts battalion at 280 points.

Another aspect: 4's to hit feels like a disconnect with the narrative of Tree-Revs. From the battletome: "It is said that their appearance echoes that of the Protectors of ancient days..." They are the warrior caste of the Sylvaneth. They seem synonymous with elite 1W aelven models, like Wildwood Rangers, Sisters of the Watch, Phoenix Guard, Black Guard, and Executioners, all of which hit on 3's. Even Eternal Guard, arguably the most direct comparison, hit on 2's and wound on 3's when not moving (and they shouldn't be moving 😀).

More soon...

Edited May 29, 2020 by scrubyandwells

[Xil]

@scrubyandwellsyou speak out of my mind!

Can't wait for your follow up post to see if we share some more thoughts on the battletome 

[Popisdead]

13 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Issues:

1. Treelord Ancient remaining a 1-cast/unbind wizard. The lack of 2-cast/unbind on TLA really stood out day 1. It remains a problem, even with its point drop to 260. By comparison, e.g.:

2. Tree-Revenants still hitting on 4's. 

Alarielle needs a points drop since most the stuff she summons is around the 120-180 range in points.  Is she worth 400 points without a Damage Prevention Roll?  But yeah... the army lost it's magical strength.  

Most things hitting on 4s with few good attacks can be felt as  "these pretty much hit on 6s".  Warherd suffers from that tremendously.  Super swingy units that have no other protection like armour or wounds.  You flub your rolls and give away the unit.  I would like to see Tree Revs move towards those IDK thralls?  I would like to see a cheaper version if you take 30 and they be really scary in combat.  TreeRevs almost feel as points-per-dmg as effective as KHs but... guess who can take a punch back?  Thus they seem to only be good for small late-game objective grabbers.

[Lanoss]

@Popisdead something fun might be - capping TRevs at 20 and make them 80/240

[Grimbok]

Tree Revenants need a complete warscroll rewrite imo. They are in a bad place with no role in the army except hiding 5 of them to teleport late game and hope for the best. They are the soldiers, the warrior caste. Make them two wounds, hitting on 3+ and keep them fairly elite. They come five in a box and are pretty big and on 32 mm, not some spammy cheap infantry. And make them at least move 6”. 

Then we can have dryads as our one wound cheapish models (chaff, objectives etc ), tree and spites as elite infantry with two wounds and better damage output, but still fragile with 5+ save. 

And kurnoths as hard hitting tough big guys that are more tanky. Bow hunters need a rework, extremely low damage output, but easy to fix, just more shots or hitting better or more damage, whatever, to make them compare to crossbowmen, irondrakes etc. 

All treelords have major issues, mostly their damage tables and small dam output. Ancient needs another cast, treelord more damage output, durhu is kind of ok, maybe a dpr save.? 12 wounds seems a bit too low on treemen, 14 wounds would be better in modern AoS, and then keep them pricey. So better and more expensive rather than the treelords race towards 100 point to be usefull. 

 

Oh and rework wyldwood completely! I don’t think this book is 75% good. The wyldwood mechanic alone makes this faction extremely difficult, annoying, hard to get into etc... every time I look at my beautiful sylvaneth army, I think about how annoying  wyldwoods are, and play Living City or Stormcast instead...

 

 

Grimbok

[rbstr]

I totally agree with the Tree Revenants - they should be pretty elite (especially 5-per box and their base size as has been said...).  And, withe the flavor of being regimented semi-traditional elfy kind of combatants, they should have statlines that reflect elfy units in a new way.

If I were to do it I'd have them be like "double Eternal Guard", you get the ~same output just with half as many models. So two wounds. 3-4 attacks. 3+ hit and wound, keep the rend, 3+ save. Keep the abilities as-is.

Spites would need a change too then - 2 wound glass-cannons. Maybe, if Sylvaneth doesn't get some new cavalry units, make the Spites cavalry! High move, extra damage on a charge.

The low durability of units in Sylvaneth has always struck me as weird. Nature, to me, is a resilient thing. If I were re-doing the army I'd have many units with like a "regrowth" ability - like a 5+ after-save (which also has a neat mirror with nurgle IMO) or like the living city regain one wound rule but it could resurrect a model from a surviving unit.