AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[The_Yellow_Sign]

7 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I've been thinking about what are best hard core competitive build is at 2k and come up with the following

Great bray Shaman *3  300

3 * 6 Enlightened  840

8 * 5 Centigor   640

3 * 10 Ungor 180

Germids  40

So 3 killer hammer units, 3 casts/dispells a game and lots of wounds (197).  Obviously dependant on the Enlightened to do the heavy lifting in terms of killing stuff but the Centigors can keep up and protect then. 17 drops, so won't get choice of turn one very often (ever) but with lots of screens and massive charge range it should be happy going first or second.  

I'd probably got for Grave Spawn for the free spawns and command ability.

Only major weakness is low hero count, so might have to play quite defensively with them. Could possibly drop one/two units of centigors for a Beastlord and/or another shammy, but love the object claiming potential of 40 lightening fast goats.

Any thoughts or ideas for your own 'killer' build?

 

Tzaangor Shamans are mandatory for Enlightened. If you do the math on their output, the +1 hit makes a massive difference, especially when they're rerolling everything.

[SwampHeart]

5 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Tzaangor Shamans are mandatory for Enlightened. If you do the math on their output, the +1 hit makes a massive difference, especially when they're rerolling everything.

Never really found that the Tz. Shaman can actually keep up with and maintain his wholly within buff aura on a unit of Enlightened in regular play. 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

Just now, SwampHeart said:

Never really found that the Tz. Shaman can actually keep up with and maintain his wholly within buff aura on a unit of Enlightened in regular play. 

Are you putting your Enlightened behind an Ungors screen and using the clip-charge trick? 

I think I've only failed to get the buff on my Enlightened about two times since the book came out.  

[SwampHeart]

Just now, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Are you putting your Enlightened behind an Ungors screen and using the clip-charge trick? 

 

Yeah, when its applicable. But there are times when I can't have my Enlightened walking up the board at 9", sometimes you need to use them aggressively to remove threats earlier. Also with more shooting coming into the meta the Ungor clip trick isn't as reliable as it used to be because opponents are either shooting the Ungors or the Enlightened off early. 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

Yeah, when its applicable. But there are times when I can't have my Enlightened walking up the board at 9", sometimes you need to use them aggressively to remove threats earlier. Also with more shooting coming into the meta the Ungor clip trick isn't as reliable as it used to be because opponents are either shooting the Ungors or the Enlightened off early. 

Ungors will actually be moving an average of 10.5", or 13.5" with a Bray Shaman nearby. I personally run a Shaggoth with Ancient Without Knowing for extra CP so that my screen can move up a guaranteed 13", or 16" with a Shaman nearby.

We don't have much shooting in my local meta so it's not a big deal for me.

[Magnus The Blue]

1 hour ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Tzaangor Shamans are mandatory for Enlightened. If you do the math on their output, the +1 hit makes a massive difference, especially when they're rerolling everything.

The +1 helps sure, but I have never found it necessary, there are few units they won't auto kill when they have the rerolls on. If nessary you can pop a command point with a summoned spawn to up the damage output but I've usually found that to be overkill.

Worth saying those enlightened are on disks, so will likely a Tz shaman will only be able to buff 1 unit at a time.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Magnus The Blue

[SwampHeart]

15 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Ungors will actually be moving an average of 10.5", or 13.5" with a Bray Shaman nearby. I personally run a Shaggoth with Ancient Without Knowing for extra CP so that my screen can move up a guaranteed 13", or 16" with a Shaman nearby.

Even if you pop the CP for maximum movement you're still losing 3-4" of movement a turn on Enlightened on Disc (who are move 19" with a shaman and must stay slightly behind the Ungor screen, sometimes more depending on enemy reach). Its a good tactic and when you're playing an army you can use it against its a must but it isn't fool proof by any means. And against some match ups means holding onto your Enlightened way too long. Really what it boils down to is the meta has adjusted to the trick and it just isn't as effective as it used to be. And lets certainly not forget the new plethora of double fight or 6" pile in units that have come in to existence who just obliterate the Ungor Screen tactic completely. 

[Kasper]

On 4/8/2019 at 11:24 PM, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Are you putting your Enlightened behind an Ungors screen and using the clip-charge trick? 

I think I've only failed to get the buff on my Enlightened about two times since the book came out.  

Can you explain this "clip-charge trick"? I have seen it mentioned multiple times, but haven't really been able to find a good explanation of it.

[Satyrical Sophist]

6 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Can you explain this "clip-charge trick"? I have seen it mentioned multiple times, but haven't really been able to find a good explanation of it.

Not the person you asked, but can give a brief description. You charge an enemy with ungors (the screen) and Enlightened. Imagine they line up like this.

O O O O O O 

u u u u u u u E

           E E E E E.

Only one enlightened is within range of the enemy unit. They have "clipped" it.

So you can attack first with the ungor, they swing back, with only one or two being able to target the Enlightened, Ungor take the hits, Enlightened pile in (and can attack over the top of the ungor if any survive), getting their rerolls without taking too much damage.

You need to clip the unit to complete the charge, since the enlightened need to end the charge with at least one within half an inch.

 

[Draakur]

Hey beastly folk - newer player here, enquiring around to get a feel for factions and what works before diving in too hard. Curious, have people had much success with the Nurgle BoC battalion (The Pestilent Throng, I believe)? Any advice on how to best utilise and build it? 

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, Draakur said:

 Any advice on how to best utilise and build it? 

1 model Chariot units are great cruise missiles in nurgle battalions.

In Nurgle armies, blades of putrification can make centigors surprisingly punchy.

Edited April 12, 2019 by kenshin620

[Kasper]

17 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Not the person you asked, but can give a brief description. You charge an enemy with ungors (the screen) and Enlightened. Imagine they line up like this.

O O O O O O 

u u u u u u u E

           E E E E E.

Only one enlightened is within range of the enemy unit. They have "clipped" it.

So you can attack first with the ungor, they swing back, with only one or two being able to target the Enlightened, Ungor take the hits, Enlightened pile in (and can attack over the top of the ungor if any survive), getting their rerolls without taking too much damage.

You need to clip the unit to complete the charge, since the enlightened need to end the charge with at least one within half an inch.

 

Damn, that's so smart. 😋 Thanks a lot for the explanation! I guess you don't want all the bases to be right up against each other, since the enemy model will be able to hit over the ungor screen, since 25mm bases equals just less than an inch? Meaning no beak or disc attacks, just spears from the enlightened?

[Magnus The Blue]

8 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Damn, that's so smart. 😋 Thanks a lot for the explanation! I guess you don't want all the bases to be right up against each other, since the enemy model will be able to hit over the ungor screen, since 25mm bases equals just less than an inch? Meaning no beak or disc attacks, just spears from the enlightened?

since you're pilling in after the enemy has attacked you can happily get all your attacks in range. Also, if it's a decent sized unit or enlightened chances are you'll wipe them out, so no need to worry about the next combat phase 

[Satyrical Sophist]

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

Damn, that's so smart. 😋 Thanks a lot for the explanation! I guess you don't want all the bases to be right up against each other, since the enemy model will be able to hit over the ungor screen, since 25mm bases equals just less than an inch? Meaning no beak or disc attacks, just spears from the enlightened?

There is also a very good chance that the unit of ungor is either dead, or going to run in the battle shock phase.

[Lexalopolis]

Hello all, I'm gradually building up a BoC/Tzeentch force based around Tzaangor but I've also been keeping an eye on the rise of FEC/Gristlegore lists.  What would you all say are the best tools that BoC has for dealing with all the terrorgheists out there these days?  I'm half tempted to design a desolating beastherd list with big ungor raider blocks and four chimeras, but that's probably an overreaction!

[The_Yellow_Sign]

1 minute ago, Lexalopolis said:

Hello all, I'm gradually building up a BoC/Tzeentch force based around Tzaangor but I've also been keeping an eye on the rise of FEC/Gristlegore lists.  What would you all say are the best tools that BoC has for dealing with all the terrorgheists out there these days?  I'm half tempted to design a desolating beastherd list with big ungor raider blocks and four chimeras, but that's probably an overreaction!

I think Chimeras are too expensive for what they do; you're better off taking another 30 Raiders rather than taking a Chimera.

 

There's two key ways to deal with Gristlegore (and now Tyrants of Blood in the new Khorne book):

 

1. Take the Taurus and ideally a Tzaangor Shaman for a casting reroll when you need it to go off. This is less reliable against the always-strikes-first Bloodthirsters for obvious reasons, but works fine against Gristlegore. It is still a bit of a gamble though, so be prepared for a lucky unbind or poor casting roll to mess up your plan.

 

2. Take at least one block of 30+ Raiders and lower your drops via battalions so that you can decide turn order and shoot it down.

 

Or if you're really worried about Gristlegore you can combine the two strategies.

[Myrdin]

I have yet to test it, however running a flock of 3 Cockatrices might not be a bad option.

They are fairly cheap, and suck in combat, and while the MW output is quite random (4+ D6), thats why you want 3 of them. Downside is you dont run them as a single unit, but if you keep them close to each other, through out the game the 3 crazy chickens should be able to stare to death pretty much anything bar things that save against MW.

For extra protection throw a screen of Hounds or Centigors in front of them and keep them at the flank you wish to evaporate. Combined with Enlightened in the middle and possible a block of Raiders as supplemental shooting, this could offer surprising amount of short to medium ranged fire that one does certainly not expect when running against Beastmen.

And since the chicken fly, they can close in fairly quickly. What do you guys think ?

Anyone crazy enough to test another theory of mine ?   (Tzaanhorn [Tzhaman + dirge horn] strategy seemed to work fairly well). 

[Magnus The Blue]

8 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

I have yet to test it, however running a flock of 3 Cockatrices might not be a bad option.

They are fairly cheap, and suck in combat, and while the MW output is quite random (4+ D6), thats why you want 3 of them. Downside is you dont run them as a single unit, but if you keep them close to each other, through out the game the 3 crazy chickens should be able to stare to death pretty much anything bar things that save against MW.

For extra protection throw a screen of Hounds or Centigors in front of them and keep them at the flank you wish to evaporate. Combined with Enlightened in the middle and possible a block of Raiders as supplemental shooting, this could offer surprising amount of short to medium ranged fire that one does certainly not expect when running against Beastmen.

And since the chicken fly, they can close in fairly quickly. What do you guys think ?

Anyone crazy enough to test another theory of mine ?   (Tzaanhorn [Tzhaman + dirge horn] strategy seemed to work fairly well). 

I have just converted up two Cockatrices to try a similar plan. To make it more interesting I am going to have 2 Cygors, 2 Cockatrices and a block of ungor raiders.  I imagine 3-4 Cockatrices is more efficient, so might convert up another two to try them out on mass.

[SwampHeart]

13 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Or if you're really worried about Gristlegore you can combine the two strategies.

This is what I'm doing these days - 60 Ungor Raiders (2 units of 30) as well as the Taurus and accompanying shaman to cast it. I'm running a bit of a hybrid of the Joel McGrath CanCon list but still slotting in 9 Enlightened on Disc in my list. 

[Myrdin]

On 4/17/2019 at 9:03 AM, Magnus The Blue said:

I have just converted up two Cockatrices to try a similar plan. To make it more interesting I am going to have 2 Cygors, 2 Cockatrices and a block of ungor raiders.  I imagine 3-4 Cockatrices is more efficient, so might convert up another two to try them out on mass.

Personally I would not play 4 of them, unless there is a  reason (army that requires lot of MW for us to deal with).

Its 400 pts after all. And if you are running with 2 Cygors and group of Raiders, that 1K points of non reliable units, without the addition of heroes and some core choices.  Plus there is a severe lack of CC punching force in a list like that.

I think 3 are the sweet spot. While with 2 you have only 50/50 chance of doing something (4+ to hit for D6 dmg), with 3 you should get a more reliable damage per turn output. And instead of the 4th one,  spend 80 pts on a screen unit (hounds/centigors),  and the rest should go to combat oriented units so you can create threat presence around the objectives.
Such a shame the Cockatrice doesnt have slightly better stats for Combat (3+ to Wound on all its talons as well, rather then just on the beak)

Alternatively instead of 2 Cygors, 3 Cockatrice and a single Chimera might be also pretty interesting. Chimera can do well in combat, thus people wont recklessly charge it, and combined with the 3 Chickens to back it up, they should evaporate anything that comes with the range of the MW shooting.....

Hmm... yeah I am liking the sound of that. Need to get 2 more cockatrices before i can test it out (or just might prox them with my Preytons, whom I wish we could legally use in our army ><  That  model is so Beast of Chaos, you would be hard pressed to find anything that gets as close to the theme of this army as a Preyton)

Edited April 18, 2019 by Myrdin

[Magnus The Blue]

38 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Personally I would not play 4 of them, unless there is a  reason (army that requires lot of MW for us to deal with).

Its 400 pts after all. And if you are running with 2 Cygors and group of Raiders, that 1K points of non reliable units, without the addition of heroes and some core choices.  Plus there is a severe lack of CC punching force in a list like that.

I think 3 are the sweet spot. While with 2 you have only 50/50 chance of doing something (4+ to hit for D6 dmg), with 3 you should get a more reliable damage per turn output. And instead of the 4th one,  spend 80 pts on a screen unit (hounds/centigors),  and the rest should go to combat oriented units so you can create threat presence around the objectives.
Such a shame the Cockatrice doesnt have slightly better stats for Combat (3+ to Wound on all its talons as well, rather then just on the beak)

Alternatively instead of 2 Cygors, 3 Cockatrice and a single Chimera might be also pretty interesting. Chimera can do well in combat, thus people wont recklessly charge it, and combined with the 3 Chickens to back it up, they should evaporate anything that comes with the range of the MW shooting.....

Hmm... yeah I am liking the sound of that. Need to get 2 more cockatrices before i can test it out (or just might prox them with my Preytons, whom I wish we could legally use in our army ><  That  model is so Beast of Chaos, you would be hard pressed to find anything that gets as close to the theme of this army as a Preyton)

Yeah, not going to play 4 in the same force as the Cygors and Raiders.  See 3-4 as a good option for an otherwise combat focused force to make sure you can snipe support characters and grass cannon units that you don't want to go toe to toe with.

[Magnus The Blue]

On 4/8/2019 at 10:14 PM, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Tzaangor Shamans are mandatory for Enlightened. If you do the math on their output, the +1 hit makes a massive difference, especially when they're rerolling everything.

Been hearing this allot and it's not reflected my experiences, so I did the maths:

When re-rolling, you get an average increase of only 13.9% damage from the spears (, which means only 8.5% increase in damage done by a unit of 6 on disks (assuming all spears and disk in range).  

Without rerolls the impact is greater with 33% increase in damage from the spears, meaning 20% increase for 6 enlightened on disks (again assuming all in range).  But since you want to get those rerolls 90% of the time, this number is less important.

So all in all the damage increase is modest unless your talking enlightened on foot who aren't getting the rerolls.

Definitely nice to have, but for a 180 point squishy model, not worth it if the bonus damage for a unit of enlightened is the main reason to taking it.

 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

13 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Been hearing this allot and it's not reflected my experiences, so I did the maths:

When re-rolling, you get an average increase of only 13.9% damage from the spears (, which means only 8.5% increase in damage done by a unit of 6 on disks (assuming all spears and disk in range).  

Without rerolls the impact is greater with 33% increase in damage from the spears, meaning 20% increase for 6 enlightened on disks (again assuming all in range).  But since you want to get those rerolls 90% of the time, this number is less important.

So all in all the damage increase is modest unless your talking enlightened on foot who aren't getting the rerolls.

Definitely nice to have, but for a 180 point squishy model, not worth it if the bonus damage for a unit of enlightened is the main reason to taking it.

 

That's incorrect. +1 to hit from the Shaman increases the spear damage by 18.5%, not 13.9% when rerolling.   

Spear hit chance with rerolls and Shaman: 2/3+1/3*2/3=8/9

Spear hit chance with rerolls: 1/2+1/2*1/2=3/4

Since all other factors cancel, the damage ratio is: (8/9)/(3/4)=32/27=1.1852...

18.5% increase in spear damage is not a small increase. 

Not only that, but Tzaangor Enlightened use the old wording of "reroll FAILED hits", so the fact that everyone and their grandma has -1 hit in today's meta means that with -1 hit your Enlightened are going to be hitting on 5+ with the spears, and rerolling only 1-3 if they don't have a Shaman, since mods are applied after rerolls per FAQ (no rerolls of 4 allowed here). That's a hit chance of only 1/2. With the Shaman buff the everpresent -1 hit cancels out, and you can at least hit on 4+ and reroll 1-3.

[Magnus The Blue]

So,

Yes your right 18.5 on the spears (when re-rolling).  I calculated it the same way but obviously make an error.  

Although that still only means 11.3% overall damage increase for enlightened on disks (well slightly lower but I'm ignoring the beak damage) or the damage of 31.6 points (280 * 0.113, assuming unit of 6 enlightened) worth of enlightened (which doesn't provide any extra wounds but also doesn't increase footprint).

The point about negating -1 to hit is a good one, and increases the bonus to 50% extra spear damage or 30.6% overall increase in damage.  My local meta I don't see a huge amount of  minus to hit modifiers, but it definitely should be considered depending on where you play.

My point isn't that Tzaangor Shaman are trash, they do give you a very fast caster hero (great for some missions) and a decent buff but I would hardly call them mandatory when your playing 180 points for a 6 wound model who is hard to hide out of LoS.

[Myrdin]

I think you might say, that they truly start showing their worth in lists that include more than 6 Enlightened.

Lets say you run 6 En. and 6 Skyf behind with Tzhammy sandwiched in between, or a unit of regular infantry Tzaans