AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[SwampHeart]

4 minutes ago, Rark said:

There's a good chance to get 10 summon points by turn 2 here with Allherd. Having that fun guy support the ambushing or weaker flank was the goal.

I'm super curious as to how - I see 2 + 2D3 plus however many command points you're going to dump into it (which is a huge waste of CP). Ultimately you're gunning for a big summon when the best summoning you can do is the low end of the chart. Summoning hounds, ungors, and chariots is the best use of the points available. Additionally every CP you put into primordial call is one you can't spend on a guaranteed 6 to run, a re-rolled charged, or an auto pass battle shock and I find all 3 of those are far more useful than a few extra summoning points. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Rark]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

I'm super curious as to how - I see 2 + 2D3 plus however many command points you're going to dump into it (which is a huge waste of CP). Ultimately you're gunning for a big summon when the best summoning you can do is the low end of the chart. Summoning hounds, ungors, and chariots is the best use of the points available. Additionally every CP you put into primordial call is one you can't spend on a guaranteed 6 to run, a re-rolled charged, or an auto pass battle shock and I find all 3 of those are far more useful than a few extra summoning points. 

T1=2CP (1 for turn, 1 for PoF)+1PP+D3 herdstone+50/50 chance for eye +1CP
T2=1CP+1PP+D3 herdstone +50/50 eye+1cp

again, it's pretty marginal, but it was the best we could come back with for something dropping big summmons quick.  Plus the option to bring the lesser summons more reliably.
The trick is to keep the points until you can convert to instant summon so there's still the option to use CP for the usual good chaffs

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, Rark said:

again, it's pretty marginal,

This is the key - its a marginal boost and the opportunity cost is incredibly high (i.e having an absolute awful artifact and command trait). You'll be able to reliably summon all the back field pressure need with Gavespawn and get access to a far better artifact and command ability (that you can summon in to). 

[Rark]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

This is the key - its a marginal boost and the opportunity cost is incredibly high (i.e having an absolute awful artifact and command trait). You'll be able to reliably summon all the back field pressure need with Gavespawn and get access to a far better artifact and command ability (that you can summon in to). 

Hmm, thought that might be the case. We were reaaaally hoping allherd would be a bit better than it was.

Changing it to Gavespawn, would it change anything else about the list? Obviously aiming for a Spawn summon sooner than later, but... thoughts?

[SwampHeart]

3 minutes ago, Rark said:

Hmm, thought that might be the case. We were reaaaally hoping allherd would be a bit better than it was.

Changing it to Gavespawn, would it change anything else about the list? Obviously aiming for a Spawn summon sooner than later, but... thoughts?

I'd consider changing out your spell on your Shaggoth to hailstorm. Sundering Blades is great but without a bonus to cast I feel like it isn't reliable enough - sure its the average result but I seem to always find it doesn't cast the turn that matters. Other than that I think you've got most of the good components in the list - low drop, bestigors, etc. 

Cogs and the Wall are to taste - I've never had a ton of success with them, again because we get no bonuses to cast. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Rark]

10 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

I'd consider changing out your spell on your Shaggoth to hailstorm. Sundering Blades is great but without a bonus to cast I feel like it isn't reliable enough - sure its the average result but I seem to always find it doesn't cast the turn that matters. Other than that I think you've got most of the good components in the list - low drop, bestigors, etc. 

Cogs and the Wall are to taste - I've never had a ton of success with them, again because we get no bonuses to cast. 

I hadn't considered Hailstorm, thanks!

The plan is cogs through the T.Shaman and using his once-per-game re-roll to get it off T1

[The_Yellow_Sign]

2 hours ago, Rark said:

Been playing beasts since AoS start in some degree or another and I've been looking to make the jump into the tournament scene. With some theorycrafting with my group, we've come back with this for a 2k list;

Allherd 2K
Shaggoth - Sundering Blades,  Allherd Artifact

Tzaangor Shaman - Tendrils of Agony

Bray Shaman - General, Tendrils of Agony, The Knowing Eye Artifact

2x30 Bestigors

9 Enlightened

10 Ungors w. Spears

Phantasmagoria of Fate

Cogs
Prismatic Wall

1990pts.

Keeps the army down to two drops, lots of unbinding possibility. Ambushing half of the Bestigors to threaten the side the Enlightened don't ride towards. Only 1 game so far, but a lot of ideas already on how to get gas here. Is there any other suggestions the Herd here might have?

Aetherquartz Brooch is superior to Knowing Eye as soon as you have more than 1 CP to start.

[Ragnar Alpaca]

Can I get a list critique?

[SwampHeart]

10 hours ago, Ragnar Alpaca said:

Can I get a list critique?

Overall solid - a few thoughts though:

-Why the double Beastlord? Without an artifact of some sort his overall damage output is very poor and his CA far to situational to build around. You could save 90 points there pretty readily. 

-I wouldn't pay for the spawn - you're better off summoning them in. They're too unreliable movement wise to count on them being in place for the Gavespawn CA. You can instead summon in to the ability and save 100 points. 

-I'd also sub in 5 Centigors for the 10 hounds. You can summon in hounds early for back field pressure where Centigors are SUPER fast (when in range of a Bray Shaman) and pack more of a punch when they drink. For the same points you get a more effective unit (less bodies but the same wounds). 

-I'd consider dropping all your bestigors to 10. They're more flexible that way and become more effective bullets. Pick up another 120 points there - could even just go with 4 units of 10 even. 

-Are you intending for the Raiders to be a major damage source? If not I think MSU raiders is a better choice - gives you better board presence and lets you take more advantage of their pre-game move to block off various parts of the board. 

I think you've got a lot of good pieces - just a few here and there that I think you could better leverage. 
 

[Popisdead]

On 1/16/2019 at 1:00 PM, Gwendar said:

The more I've looked into them , the more I can't be bothered. As it stands, they mathematically just can't do much and I would rather bring Bestigors or Enlightened. Granted I do like them aesthetically, but for now it's probably best to leave them out.

Fair enough.  I'd prefer not to buy Enlightened and just play with what I own.   I have Bullgors and Bestigors so I'm using those happily

[Entombet]

Finally finished.

[Gwendar]

Revised the previous list a bit to remove the Bullgors. Added in more Raiders for the deepstrike damage with exploding hits and another 10 Gors for screening\objective camping...although I imagine a summoned unit may do the latter better. Any critiques for this?

Allegiance: Beasts of Chaos
- Greatfray: Gavespawn

Leaders
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- General
- Trait: Unravelling Aura 
- Artefact: The Knowing Eye 
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Titanic Fury
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Viletide
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Tendrils of Atrophy
Beastlord (90)
- Artefact: Mutating Gnarlblade 

Battleline
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Gors (80)
- Gor-Blades & Beastshields
10 x Gors (80)
- Gor-Blades & Beastshields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields

Units
40 x Ungor Raiders (320)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (280)

Behemoths
Ghorgon (200)

Battalions
Desolating Beastherd (150)

Total: 2000 / 2000

[Ragnar Alpaca]

4 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

Overall solid - a few thoughts though:

-Why the double Beastlord? Without an artifact of some sort his overall damage output is very poor and his CA far to situational to build around. You could save 90 points there pretty readily. 

-I wouldn't pay for the spawn - you're better off summoning them in. They're too unreliable movement wise to count on them being in place for the Gavespawn CA. You can instead summon in to the ability and save 100 points. 

-I'd also sub in 5 Centigors for the 10 hounds. You can summon in hounds early for back field pressure where Centigors are SUPER fast (when in range of a Bray Shaman) and pack more of a punch when they drink. For the same points you get a more effective unit (less bodies but the same wounds). 

-I'd consider dropping all your bestigors to 10. They're more flexible that way and become more effective bullets. Pick up another 120 points there - could even just go with 4 units of 10 even. 

-Are you intending for the Raiders to be a major damage source? If not I think MSU raiders is a better choice - gives you better board presence and lets you take more advantage of their pre-game move to block off various parts of the board. 

I think you've got a lot of good pieces - just a few here and there that I think you could better leverage. 
 

Thanks for the feedback really appreciate it.

- I had the idea to run the two beastlords up the board early to kill a bit then turn into spawn. I could give the second one an artifact but that takes away the eye allowing me to get more command points. Is that worth it?

- I forgot you can summon spawn in, thanks for this

- I would love to run Centigors but man they are such ugly models

- I could definitely split the 20 into 10. Why are bestigors better in small numbers? Wouldn’t that just make them easier to wipe off the board?

- I have heard people say that 40 unbor raiders can do a lot of work so yeah I was kinda putting them in a group to do some damage. I think I already have enough harass with this list. 

[Rark]

On 1/17/2019 at 4:20 PM, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Aetherquartz Brooch is superior to Knowing Eye as soon as you have more than 1 CP to start.

I have been debating on this choice. I'm hoping to try both out over my next couple games and see which I like more. If I only average 1CP from the brooch use, I'm probably just going to keep the Eye.

[The_Yellow_Sign]

1 hour ago, Ragnar Alpaca said:

Thanks for the feedback really appreciate it.

- I had the idea to run the two beastlords up the board early to kill a bit then turn into spawn. I could give the second one an artifact but that takes away the eye allowing me to get more command points. Is that worth it?

- I forgot you can summon spawn in, thanks for this

- I would love to run Centigors but man they are such ugly models

- I could definitely split the 20 into 10. Why are bestigors better in small numbers? Wouldn’t that just make them easier to wipe off the board?

- I have heard people say that 40 unbor raiders can do a lot of work so yeah I was kinda putting them in a group to do some damage. I think I already have enough harass with this list. 

I personally think 20 Bestigors are a great idea, and pretty much necessary for dropping tough units if you prefer not to use Enlightened. You probably won't get them all into combat, but with their speed you can often wrap around  on the charge and get 15 or so.

[newsun]

Coming from Tzeentch, are Tzaangors any good here? Currently they seem weak in Tzeentch compared to other battleline.

[Myrdin]

19 hours ago, newsun said:

Coming from Tzeentch, are Tzaangors any good here? Currently they seem weak in Tzeentch compared to other battleline.

Enlyghtened on Discs, are extremely good. Cheap fast and can benefit even more from Shaman +3 movement, making 1st turn Alpha strikes a given. Having the option to go foot for even cheaper, makes for an interesting choice. Plus in that case ambush becomes a viable option especially if you can set things up for a turn 2 ambush, when the table has already shifted somewhat.

Skyfires are expensive as all hell, but funny enough people who play them, use them for combat mostly, and the shooting is more like a nice bonus. No personal experience with these yet.

Normal Tzaangors seem situational depending on the army which they face. They seem to have some strong match ups, and some less favorable.

Compared to Tzeentch, the Tzaan Shaman in BoC got nerfed since he can no longer create new units with his spell,  meaning if you dont have a unit of Tzaangors that spells has limited use.

Overall the Tzeentch brothers are doing well and going strong in Beast of Chaos book.

 

....Now if GW wanted to make more money of us all they would have to do would be the introduction of Knor/Slaan and Pestigors to our elite infantry.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Myrdin

[SugarMaple82]

On 1/16/2019 at 2:18 AM, Myrdin said:

For the first part - If you dislike the general look of Ungors, you can look around for some alternatives. As has been mentioned in this thread a while back, there are some good models that fit the size and the feel. For example I myself am using the Frostgrave Gnolls. 20 models for 20 bucks, and good amount of details and poses to make them look good once painted. There are also other alternatives.  Granted if you want to go to GW tournaments, using 3rd party models is a no go, but if you dont care about those this might be a good work around the issue you have with the models

 

As for the second part - Yes currently the Skyfires due to the jacked up price are either All or Nothing scenario. You either dedicate hard and take a unit of 6+ and dedicate with a Tzaan Shaman tagging along and  buffing them, or you skip them completely.  MSU units might be viable once we see a price drop by at least 40 pts per unit.

In your particular case with the Chimeras and what not, I would drop those 3 completely and invest the 200 pts into something else.

If its swift objective grabbers you need then Centigors are your guys. Personally I found Razorgors pretty good for this role as well. The little piggy (a.k.a: angry, over-sized pork-chop on four legs) is fast enough and very cheap. At 40 points its very easy to fit one or two of these into any army. Keep them back let them slowly crouch up towards objectives not drawing attention to them.

One of these buggers won me a game against SCE, where all my big gribbly and scary stuff was pushing hard on my opponent while this little big comfortably sat on an objective for 3 turns, raking those points in and oinking at any unit passing by

Ha, I remember AOS 1 with 160 pt Skyfires and everyone hating them - I still get a lot of people complaining about Skyfires with the PTSD from that... I was more interested in running them based off already having them. I think the 10 ungor will be my back objective sitter unit and I can always summon some hounds if I need. Based on everything I'm now thinking a slightly different look with a few more bodies, now I'm unsure of the T. Shaman inclusion without a big unit of Tzaangors or Skyfires and I wanted to try the Doombull before I fully commit and chop and swap the head off my Ogroid. Do you think this version will shore up the bodies enough to run smoothly?

1970/2000 (Gavespawn, Ghur, 1 CP from the battalion)

Beastlord (General, Unravelling Aura, Mutating Gnarlblade)

Great Bray Shaman (Vicious Stranglethorns)

Tzaangor Shaman (Viletide)

Doombull (Gryph Feather Charm)

2x30 Bestigors (Battleline)

10 Ungor (Battleline)

10 Tzaangor

Phantasmagoria of Fate (Everything above)

2x Chimeras

Edited January 19, 2019 by SugarMaple82

[SirPug]

Anyone else find it funny that troggoths cost same as bullgors?

Do the mortal wound ability of the bullgor make them in line damage wise with the troggoths or do troggoths just benefit from the new models GW wants to sell.

[The_Yellow_Sign]

1 minute ago, SirPug said:

Anyone else find it funny that troggoths cost same as bullgors?

Do the mortal wound ability of the bullgor make them in line damage wise with the troggoths or do troggoths just benefit from the new models GW wants to sell.

The new Trogoths are definitely way better than Bullgors, unfortunately. Their regeneration is a better version of the Bullgor allegiance ability built into their warscroll, they are massively tougher thanks to the feel-no-pain save, and I believe they do slightly more damage per model even accounting for the MW output of Bullgors (I calculated it a while ago though, so could be wrong). 

[SwampHeart]

On 1/18/2019 at 2:33 PM, Ragnar Alpaca said:

Thanks for the feedback really appreciate it.

- I had the idea to run the two beastlords up the board early to kill a bit then turn into spawn. I could give the second one an artifact but that takes away the eye allowing me to get more command points. Is that worth it?

- I forgot you can summon spawn in, thanks for this

- I would love to run Centigors but man they are such ugly models

- I could definitely split the 20 into 10. Why are bestigors better in small numbers? Wouldn’t that just make them easier to wipe off the board?

- I have heard people say that 40 unbor raiders can do a lot of work so yeah I was kinda putting them in a group to do some damage. I think I already have enough harass with this list. 

Sorry for the long delay in response (you know the weekend and all). 

-I think having the eye/aetherquartz brooch is more valuable than a 2nd artifact on a beastlord. My general experience has been that a BL with an artifact that improves his weapon damage is a very points efficient blender where anytime I run one barebones his damage output is just too low. Maybe you could run a Doombull instead of a Beastlord for your 2nd combat hero paying for it with the points you save in spawn? He's more effective on his own and wouldn't require an artifact investment. 

-Regarding Centigors - you can pretty easily convert them out of Gors and marauder horsemen or even use 3rd party. But I totally understand models being a concern, and I agree the current range Centigors aren't good looking models (plus they suffer badly from scale creep). 

-My general opinion on Bestigors is they are a missile. Smaller units are more easily maneuvered into tighter spots and represent a wider target priority for your opponent. If I'm facing an army with 4 units of 10 versus 1 20 and 2 10s its harder for me to plan out my shots to deal exactly with each given unit. This is also a major element of 'dealer's choice' so I'd play around with both and find your comfort level. 

-I know I've gone on record in the thread as not being a lover of ambush but have you thought about going for the Ungor Raider ambush and giving a bray shaman the +1 to hit horn? I think its a bit of a niche build but could be fun and probably worth experimenting with if you run the big Raider unit. 

[Ragnar Alpaca]

16 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Sorry for the long delay in response (you know the weekend and all). 

-I think having the eye/aetherquartz brooch is more valuable than a 2nd artifact on a beastlord. My general experience has been that a BL with an artifact that improves his weapon damage is a very points efficient blender where anytime I run one barebones his damage output is just too low. Maybe you could run a Doombull instead of a Beastlord for your 2nd combat hero paying for it with the points you save in spawn? He's more effective on his own and wouldn't require an artifact investment. 

-Regarding Centigors - you can pretty easily convert them out of Gors and marauder horsemen or even use 3rd party. But I totally understand models being a concern, and I agree the current range Centigors aren't good looking models (plus they suffer badly from scale creep). 

-My general opinion on Bestigors is they are a missile. Smaller units are more easily maneuvered into tighter spots and represent a wider target priority for your opponent. If I'm facing an army with 4 units of 10 versus 1 20 and 2 10s its harder for me to plan out my shots to deal exactly with each given unit. This is also a major element of 'dealer's choice' so I'd play around with both and find your comfort level. 

-I know I've gone on record in the thread as not being a lover of ambush but have you thought about going for the Ungor Raider ambush and giving a bray shaman the +1 to hit horn? I think its a bit of a niche build but could be fun and probably worth experimenting with if you run the big Raider unit. 

Thanks again. 

I’m not too fond of the doom bull so I’ll probably just stick with getting rid of one of the beast lords. Although this does significantly detract from my initial plan for making nurgle bombs with pestilent battalion.

I looked into it and yeah I’m going to get some marauder horsemen and God’s to make centigors. 

I will try all the bestigor configurations thank.

the ambushing Ungor Raider unit and a hero with the horn sounds like it could really do some damage, but to do that I would have to get rid of either the eye or the mutated knarlblade. In a more competitive sense I would definitely go with the horn for the awesome ambush. But the whole thing is I’m trying to make a good nurgle list of BoC. 

[Popisdead]

 

33 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

, and I agree the current range Centigors aren't good looking models

"Boo hiss "

 

[SwampHeart]

12 minutes ago, Ragnar Alpaca said:

In a more competitive sense I would definitely go with the horn for the awesome ambush.

I actually don't think its a competitively viable build. So many tournaments right now are including Total Commitment that you're almost guaranteed to play it (especially in a 5 round event), and as such you're basically wasting an artifact for one of your five rounds. Regarding specifically the Nurgle Battalion - have you considered chariots at all - I think they might be good missiles in the Battalion. They hit reasonably hard but aren't super durable so you should get the nice MW pop on them reliably. 

[Ragnar Alpaca]

 

6 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

I actually don't think its a competitively viable build. So many tournaments right now are including Total Commitment that you're almost guaranteed to play it (especially in a 5 round event), and as such you're basically wasting an artifact for one of your five rounds. Regarding specifically the Nurgle Battalion - have you considered chariots at all - I think they might be good missiles in the Battalion. They hit reasonably hard but aren't super durable so you should get the nice MW pop on them reliably. 

I totally considered the chariots, but again, they look so bad that I don’t want to deal with them. You wouldn’t happen to have any good ideas to convert them?

also what do you mean by Total Commitment?