AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Tropical Ghost General]

So what is the group's concensus with deployment of battalions using the underworld ability.

I know that battalions can be either deployed as one big group, or as smaller groups or as single units.

But what if we choose to set up a battalion with half the units in the underworld and half the units on the board. Can we do it as a single drop? 

For example, taking death stalkers battalion, I choose to set up the cairn wraith and two units of glaivewraiths on the board and the two units of grims in the underworld. Can this all be done as a single drop? Or does it require two drops, one for cairn and glaive wraiths and one for the grims? 

[dmorley21]

3 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So what is the group's concensus with deployment of battalions using the underworld ability.

I know that battalions can be either deployed as one big group, or as smaller groups or as single units.

But what if we choose to set up a battalion with half the units in the underworld and half the units on the board. Can we do it as a single drop? 

For example, taking death stalkers battalion, I choose to set up the cairn wraith and two units of glaivewraiths on the board and the two units of grims in the underworld. Can this all be done as a single drop? Or does it require two drops, one for cairn and glaive wraiths and one for the grims? 

I'm wondering about this too. Also, with my Shrieker Host, does it count as deploying 1 unit or 5 units off the table? 

[TheWolfLord]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

I'm wondering about this too. Also, with my Shrieker Host, does it count as deploying 1 unit or 5 units off the table? 

You count the total number of units deployed off the table regardless of how many drops.

4 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So what is the group's concensus with deployment of battalions using the underworld ability.

I know that battalions can be either deployed as one big group, or as smaller groups or as single units.

But what if we choose to set up a battalion with half the units in the underworld and half the units on the board. Can we do it as a single drop? 

For example, taking death stalkers battalion, I choose to set up the cairn wraith and two units of glaivewraiths on the board and the two units of grims in the underworld. Can this all be done as a single drop? Or does it require two drops, one for cairn and glaive wraiths and one for the grims? 

Battalions can still be deployed as a single drop even if the individual units are split between the table and the underworld.

Nothing in the battalion rules suggests they need to be setup in the same location.

[Tropical Ghost General]

@dmorley21 So I've done some digging around and the rule book states that battalions can be deployed as single units or small groups or all together. Using the previous death stalkers example, there are 5 units in total. 3 units get deployed on the table, 2 get deployed in the underworld. So they all get deployed at the same time and count as a single drop, but for determining whether 50% is on the table for the underworld ability, then you go by actual units, and in the death stalkers example it fulfills the requirements. If I tried to deploy 3 or more units in the underworld and then the rest on the table, then I would need to have put enough units from outside the battalion to fulfill the underworld requirements. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

For those interested in tournament results, these are the placings from Facehammer GT this weekend.

33rd, 65th, 77th and 88th out of 88. ?

I have said before and will keep saying it, that once our opponent's know our army's tricks that we are a mid-tier army and the results from recent tournaments are proving this, but I've had other ghost players in other forums/online groups saying that this is just negative thinking, but the results coming out are prove of this, it's not negative thinking, it's straight up fact. I am still 100% committed to my bedsheets, but I hold no illusions that they'll be a hitting the top table again anytime soon, especially on a regular basis. ?

Top spots at Facehammer from 1st to 10th, were
Daughters of Khaine 
Destruction 
Slyvaneth
Blades of Khorne
Phoenix Temple 
Legion of Blood 
Bonesplitterz
Stormcast Eternals
Daughters of Khaine 
Legion of Sacrament

I don't know what the various lists were yet, will post them if I find them.

In other tournament news I came 10th out of 12 in a local 1k tournament a few weekends ago, but that's definitely more from bad play than anything else ?.

[Neck-Romantic]

Definitely seems like we are easily hamstrung if our healers get taken out early... I was hoping for a mechanism that brought back units once they were killed ala LoN; perhaps requiring a kill-count trigger first. 

I've tried stacking lots of reduntant healing and being exceedingly aggressive with my troops to take the heat off my heroes and it seems to help.

Also; the mourngul performs better on table than on paper ..

I figured we are a very anti-elite army with our invuln saves and Mortal Wound output, feels like our anti-horde tools (Tomb Banshee/banshee battalion) are underutilized

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Neck-Romantic

[Espy85]

Nighthaunt are okay to just have fun. In LoN they are a good  upgrade and you can recover them. But the truth is that the nighthaunt battletome  seems to have been badly done, whithout playtesting .
In AoS each army has its own characteristic:
1: The Horde, this army don't is because the units have low numbers and with 32 inches bases and no bonuses that give more attacks. The dreadscythe dont go beyond the 30 40 attacks, the grimghast idem, the bladegheist make it 20. Too few for to be horde army.
2: The Shooter, absent justified.
3: Magic. unjustified absent, few wizards and no magic that hits the bravery or mortal wounds , a couple useful and stop.
4: Elite army. The number of attacks is in line with elite armies, but have little yield and yield of laughable damage. The entire army hits 4+ and considering the few attacks with the accumulation the best units do not make more than ten injuries. The only hope is  a charge with 10+ but it can happen a game in which you do none.
The problem is that the designers in my opinion have overestimated the ethereal rule just because they have not got to see it at stake.
The best choice would have been an elite army based on resistance, made up of very few high-cost but hard-hitting models. For example, you must have many injuries with a real increase in costs. For example units like the grimghast had to have a second wound, then you make me pay 200 every 10 without problems. The chainghast 4 wounds for one model and 160 points for every 2 models. The impact on bravery was strengthened for the attack. The -1 gives it also legion of blood. They could add a second malus to the units within 12 by those who drop in aip on the turn they arrive.
As it is today, the army seems to be halfway to all possible routes. Then be clear, if you play with friends to have fun is fine, but if you show up at a tournament, it is hard work. It's okay to face the sylvaneth or those few armies that deploy little and aim at the rend, but against the hordes and the shooters you're dead. If 20 bladegheist loaded from the 40 skeletons you lose them in 1 round of cac. The witches elves beat you. The tzangor too,. And the bladegheists would be our elites.
What you think about?

Ever sorry for my bad english.

[Sutek]

I was the one that finished 65th but I was on table 8 in round three but lost 16-14 in Total Commitment and then 14-13 in Total Conquest.  My last game I was soundly beaten but that was to the Nighthaunt list that finished 33rd.  I wouldn't read too much into it.  Neither of us had played many games before the tournament.

[Vasshpit]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Also; the mourngul performs better on table than on paper ..

 

Here's a fun list I've been toying around in my head with. 
I don't have models ready or command traits/artifacts picked out but I'd like to give it a go at some point. 

 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt

Leaders
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- General
Spirit Torment (120)
Spirit Torment (120)

Battleline
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)

Units
4 x Chainghasts (160)
4 x Chainghasts (160)
4 x Chainghasts (160)

Behemoths
Mourngul (300)
Mourngul (300)
Mourngul (300)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
 

[relic456]

@Sutek Any major thoughts / take aways? What were your other match ups like and what list were you running?

[Neck-Romantic]

@Vasshpit Hmmm... thats one crazy oddball list!! I wouldnt mind hearing how it performs

[Vasshpit]

@Neck-Romantic

I'd imagine it would all revolve around keeping those mourns healed and even though chainsghasts aren't the greatest i think they could do enough back up support. 

[Neck-Romantic]

All 3 mourns in one group to give -3 tohit (if they stack with themselves) spread out if not... chainghasts synapsing the STorment aura... 12d3 shots assasinating 1 maybe 2 support heroes a turn and rasps flooding the field to prevent charges. . .

Magic is your weakness, both offensive and defensive though. I'de give one of the torments the book with spectral tether for a second dispell and +hero heals

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Vasshpit I want to hear how the triple mourngul list goes, sounds hilarious. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Tropical Ghost General

[Tropical Ghost General]

2 hours ago, Espy85 said:

What you think about?

I think they missed a trick not making blades or harridans 2 wounds. 

I also agree about the ethereal save being over priced/expectations of game designers. There is so much stuff in the game that either causes no rend or ignores rend -1 or -2. This means that our super special ability isn't actually that special or unique. I will admit at times it is useful but it's not OMG Totes Amazeballs. 

I personally believe that what they could have given the ghosts as a super special ability is being immune to battleshock and bravery tests. We are meant to be pure horror, the ultimate spooky terror, yet we are super limited with ways of bravery bombing without taking allies. Currently it's only really Destruction that our bravery attacks are good against and that may change when they get newer battletomes. Also not running to battleshock would make our lack of healing/regen abilities balanced out, when compared to LoN or FEC our summoning/healing it utter garbage. 

[Vasshpit]

25 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

@Vasshpit I want to hear how the triple mourngul list goes, sounds hilarious. 

Heh. Me too but it'll be awhile before I had it ready. 

I'm converting a zombie dragon into a Mourngul and I'm really happy with it so far and that's what made me think of such a list. 

@Neck-Romantic

And with the chains being -2 to hit, those few hits that do go through should defininatly count. 

[Mikeymajq]

Anyone done something similiar to this and have any pointers?

Harridan - General. Ruler of the spirit host.

Knight of Shrouds on steed - pendant of the fell wind (maybe?)

Harridan - midnight tome, shademist spell

2x20 chainrasp

2x10 hexwraiths

20 grimghast

Black coach

Deathriders battalion.

[dmorley21]

6 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

For those interested in tournament results, these are the placings from Facehammer GT this weekend.

33rd, 65th, 77th and 88th out of 88. ?

I have said before and will keep saying it, that once our opponent's know our army's tricks that we are a mid-tier army and the results from recent tournaments are proving this, but I've had other ghost players in other forums/online groups saying that this is just negative thinking, but the results coming out are prove of this, it's not negative thinking, it's straight up fact. I am still 100% committed to my bedsheets, but I hold no illusions that they'll be a hitting the top table again anytime soon, especially on a regular basis. ?

I think Nighthaunt is tier 2, but I've yet to see a tournament list that I thought was a true power list. Most lists seemed more aimed at personal taste (which is fine and what I will be doing). 

A power list would feature two units of 30 reapers and then probably the Shroudguard battalion as support. Or a unit or two of 40 Chainrasps with heavy hitting support. 

Most lists don't have nearly enough models to make the most of the list. Mine won't either most likely. There's just a lot of cool and fun stuff. 

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

I think they missed a trick not making blades or harridans 2 wounds. 

I also agree about the ethereal save being over priced/expectations of game designers. There is so much stuff in the game that either causes no rend or ignores rend -1 or -2. This means that our super special ability isn't actually that special or unique. I will admit at times it is useful but it's not OMG Totes Amazeballs. 

I personally believe that what they could have given the ghosts as a super special ability is being immune to battleshock and bravery tests. We are meant to be pure horror, the ultimate spooky terror, yet we are super limited with ways of bravery bombing without taking allies. Currently it's only really Destruction that our bravery attacks are good against and that may change when they get newer battletomes. Also not running to battleshock would make our lack of healing/regen abilities balanced out, when compared to LoN or FEC our summoning/healing it utter garbage. 

I don't think it would have made sense for them to ignore battleshock. But more ways to reduce bravery does seem like it is missing. An endless spell, regular spell, artefact, unit... anything. The reaper spell, cairn wraith, and black coach would all make sense. Maybe an additional -1 on a turn when charged by Nighthaunt. Any of those things would have helped with what's meant to be a shock force. 

[Neck-Romantic]

I was surprised there was no boosted banshee mechanic, either a character or battalion in that regard, or that rhe harridens/myrms didnt have a regular missile attack as their 'scream'

Or Olynder causing double scream deaths rather than a paltry +1 bravery casualty... which can be great vs multiwound infantry but 90% of the time ppl can see a failed battleshock coming from a mile away

[Tropical Ghost General]

51 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

A power list would feature two units of 30 reapers

I have a list with 90 grims and 30 blades in it, just waiting for several paydays ?. 

You are right on the lack of power lists, I suppose we are all too excited by all the choices available. I imagine it will settle down eventually or we'll continue making super thematic armies that lack any real punch ?. 

Also the fact that none of the ghost endless spells are support ones, they are all predatory and not great predatory ones either, never mind, I'll just have to bring the sun and the jaws and gravetide to get my bravery bombing done. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Well the character and support hero sculpts are absolutely stunning as well so its hard to buckle down and throw 60/80 infantry on rhe board and just swarm it out either : P 

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

I have a list with 90 grims and 30 blades in it, just waiting for several paydays ?. 

You are right on the lack of power lists, I suppose we are all too excited by all the choices available. I imagine it will settle down eventually or we'll continue making super thematic armies that lack any real punch ?. 

Also the fact that none of the ghost endless spells are support ones, they are all predatory and not great predatory ones either, never mind, I'll just have to bring the sun and the jaws and gravetide to get my bravery bombing done. 

 

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Well the character and support hero sculpts are absolutely stunning as well so its hard to buckle down and throw 60/80 infantry on rhe board and just swarm it out either : P 

All too true. I'm personally happy with my theme of spirits rebelling against Nagash that focuses on a Shrieker Host. However, I'm pretty sure a list like the one below would do well at tournaments:

Guardian of Souls (General, Ruler of the Spirit Hosts, Soul Cage, Beacon of Nagashizzar)

Reikenor the Grimhailer

Cairn Wraith (Pendant of Fell Wind)

30 Grimghast Reapers

20 Grimghast Reapers

10 Chainrasp Horde

15 Bladegheist Revenants

10 Bladegheist Revenants

4 Glavewraith Stalkers

4 Glavewraith Stalkers

Shroudguard

Death Stalkers

Chronomantic Cogs

Suffocating Gravetide

 

That's 4 drops, 2 extra command points, 109 wounds, 93 infantry (most of which cause a ton of damage), 3 heroes, and clocks in at 1990 pts. 

It has a ton of board presence, is very maneuverable, and should be able to cut through almost anything in its way. And there's a lot of different takes on it. Is the second battalion worth it to lower the drops when you could drop it and add a support hero and/or more models? Suffocating Gravetide for board control or a different endless spell with the extra 40 pts? Etc., etc.

Yet I haven't seen that type of list at a tournament yet. Now, maybe I've missed some, but I think that list would do well.

What do you all think?

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

What do you all think?

It looks pretty decent but I wonder if it's worth taking the blades and their battalion when grims are just as good. Yes it's less drops but it means that you have really limited hero support and we don't do well without heroes, only a few units do and one of them is grims. By the way I love grims ?. 

Your 100% right though, there hasn't been any lists along these lines that I've seen, it's a step in the right direction.

[Sutek]

On 9/24/2018 at 7:48 PM, relic456 said:

@Sutek Any major thoughts / take aways? What were your other match ups like and what list were you running?

I fought Slaves to Darkness, Two Legion's of Sacrament, a Murderhost and Nighthaunt.  I would have liked a bit more variety to be honest.  My list was

Lady O

Knight of shrouds on Horse

Guardian of Souls

Spirit Torment

Dreadblade Harrow

40 Chainrasps

10 Bladegheists

9 Spirit Hosts in units of 3

2 Chainghasts

Mourngul

The Mourngul did well but I'm still going to have to drop it to make way for the 12 Mymourn Banshees I bought in the shop during the tournament.  The Bladegheists can give it out but can't take it so I always felt one decent sized unit short.

[spenson]

Hi everyone, I'm still on the fence about a few things and I wondering if you could help me.

I like the Myrmourn Banshees but you're paying 210 points for 12 wounds with a 4+/6++. They become very strong after a dispel (with +3 if the unit is full) but then they need to start the game on the board unless you get first turn. It's even worse if your opponent has no caster but it's not that common. Even if you get first turn and deepstrike them next to your opponent you'll either get a combat phase without +1 attack or they'll stand there doing nothing and get killed.

Do you prefer the knight of shrouds on foot or on steed ? I plan on playing a shroudguard (20+10 bladegheists) and maybe 12 banshees. The knight on foot is better with the bladegheists but the kight on steed makes the banshees deal a lot more damage.

How strong are 30 reapers? 2x10 chainrasps + 30 reapers are almost the same price as 2x20 chainrasps + 6 spririt hosts. I guess the spirit hosts aren't that good unless you play a black coach? But I'm not too sure about playing small units of chainrasps.

I like the beacon of Nagashizzar. Is the midnight tome useful if you already have 2 casters in your army (reikenor + a guardian of souls) ? The cloak from Shyish and maybe the artifact from Ghur that gives -1 to hit seem pretty good. What are the must-have in your opinion ?

This is what my army currently looks like but I'm not totally satisfied and there are 40 points left (maybe for an endless spell like the palisade or the geminis ?)

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- General
- Trait: Cloaked in Shadow 
- Infernal Lantern (Artefact): Beacon of Nagashizzar
Knight of Shrouds (120)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome 
Spirit Torment (120)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
12 x Myrmourn Banshees (210)
Shroudguard (110)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114
 

PS : I haven't thought about allies at all, but it seems that they lose a lot of stuff if they're not nighthaunt.

Edited September 25, 2018 by spenson