AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[AidenNicol]

4 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Remember that you only lose an objective if an enemy can claim it, so if you're preventing your opponent from coming within range you can leave your objectives and still count them. Except for that one battleplan that requires the heroes within 3"...

What if i told you you can capture the objective in Duality of Death with a unit of Chainrasps, then teleport them off the point to a far corner of the table with a Dreadblade general.

They are still holding the objective, and will not lose it until they are killed. The unit has not "moved" in so far as Duality's rules hold, and until they move they hold the objective, even if the enemy puts their whole army on said point.

[EnixLHQ]

That, my friend, is a delicious kind of evil

[AidenNicol]

1 minute ago, EnixLHQ said:

That, my friend, is a delicious kind of evil

Some people call me a terrorist, i prefer to think of myself as a teacher

[EnixLHQ]

Just now, AidenNicol said:

Some people call me a terrorist, i prefer to think of myself as a teacher

I've certainly learned a lot from you on the LoG page.

Not that you're here, what's your take on the new battalions?

[AidenNicol]

5 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

I've certainly learned a lot from you on the LoG page.

Not that you're here, what's your take on the new battalions?

I'm glad you asked

 

[shinros]

Liked and commented on the blog, I think I'm going to readjust my list.....

[EnixLHQ]

40 minutes ago, AidenNicol said:

I'm glad you asked

 

Commented as well. Thanks for the fresh take!

[The_Dudemeister]

With the -1 to save from Emerald Curse, we can now reliably kill Gotrek without a much bigger unit and CP-investment. 😰

The safest way I can think of right now would be 30 Reapers with +1attack from KoSoES and Olynder's Grief-Stricken spell.

Both the spell and Knight of Shroud's command ability have an 18" reach so they don't need to get close to Gotrek. Basically you only need to successfully pop the spell as the starting shot since the command ability has no chance to fail. There are no short-ranged 12" buffs involved so no hero will be stranded next to Gotrek in case he survives with 1 or even 2 wounds left. Make a Nighthaunt charge and you don't even need to bother rolling, just take him off.

Edited December 10, 2019 by The_Dudemeister

[Tropical Ghost General]

6 hours ago, AidenNicol said:

They are still holding the objective

Until your opponent moves a hero or battleline unit into range of the objective. Yes you can 'tag and run',on some objectives but not Duality, as if you are more than 3" away and even 1 enemy battleline or hero model gets into range to claim the objective, your teleported rasps no longer hold it. Yes they might have been first onto the objective but they are no longer in range to tag it.

And the the teleport is classed as a move, it even states it in the rules, that "This counts as their move for that movement phase."

[Aaranis]

7 hours ago, shinros said:

So starting out with nighthaunt, as you lot know. Threw together a basic list, I know reaper boys are the better option but the Bladeghiest look too pretty to me. Planning to build into the chainguard battalion, upping my spirit host to 9 and getting 10-15 bladeghiest.  I also have a question, should I throw a beacon onto the Guardian of souls, or should I drop the tome for the Knight of shrouds and give the Guardian the beacon for now?   

Total Points: 950

Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140) - Lore of the Underworlds : Spectral Tether

Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120) - General - Command Trait : Ruler of the Spirit Hosts - Artefact : Midnight Tome - Reaping Scythe

Lord Executioner (80)

Spirit Torment (120)

UNITS

20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)

6 x Spirit Hosts (240)

5 x Bladegheist Revenants (90)

Hello, welcome to Nigthhaunts !

Bladegheists are a totally legit alternative to Reapers, don't worry. They just work a bit differently: you'll want your Reapers to be a large durable anvil usually in the middle of the table, while Bladegheists excel at surgical strikes, usually striking from the Underworlds and retreating/charging as much as they can to keep the +1A. I've found a unit of 10 to be just on the limit of being a bit unwieldy, as they're quite large and strike at 1" they can be difficult to engage with all the unit you're charging. You could be looking at the Shroudguard Battalion later if you love them, it'll boost their survivability. 

For your list I'd advise you to either make the KoS casting Shademist, or give the Beacon of Nagashizzar to the GoS. You might be tempted to charge but the KoS isn't a beatstick, more of a support character, and if he's against serious damage dealer units you'll lose your General and that's the last thing you want in a NH army. Shademist cast on the Spirit Hosts or Chainrasps will make them last longer. The Beacon helps your GoS be more reliable when he casts his healing spell. Be wary that the GoS is usually a juicy target once the opponent sees all the buffs he provides, so position him away from danger but near your units if you're facing heavy shooting.

Other than that I guess you use the Executioner to fill the points, there's no problem until you have more units, but know he isn't really good on his own. He shines with 3x3 Spirit Hosts in a Execution Horde Battalion, along with a KoS on foot and ideally Olynder (but we're talking about a 2000 pts list at this point). With the setup I listed you can give him the Sword of Judgement (Ulgu artifact) and go hunt Monsters and Heroes. The Sword deals d6 Mortal Wounds on these on a Hit roll of 6+, modifiable, so with the Battalion it's on a 5+, with Olynder's spell a 4+, and two CP from the KoS later you're dealing these Mortal Wounds on 2+. But as I said, it's a very specific set up.

[Ruvich]

Any thoughts on the Nighthaunt Battleforce? Asking for a friend. 😁

[Greasygeek]

12 minutes ago, Ruvich said:

Any thoughts on the Nighthaunt Battleforce? Asking for a friend. 😁

IMO it’s an impressive box at first look but it will force a lot of extra buys before it can do any good.

Say if they had swapped the Dreadscythes for another box of reapers or vice versa you would at least get one (almost) combat ready unit.

Don’t really believe that there is a lot of money to be saved on that force unless your are planing on building a huge army.

However I think it might be a good box if you are new to AOS or maybe just play in a group that cares little for armybuilding. Lots of fun units to try out on narrative games and open play but any army just remotely build to combat, will tear you down.

Thats my spooky two cents.

😉

 

[Aaranis]

3 hours ago, Ruvich said:

Any thoughts on the Nighthaunt Battleforce? Asking for a friend. 😁

It won't give you an effective army by itself, but if you're going to commot playing Nighthaunt it's a superb box full of useful units. Sure you'll need to buy another box of some units, but without the battleforce you'd just buy them for a higher price, so it's a really good discount.

Even the Hexwraiths have become interesting with the new White Dwarf battalions so it's a good buy in my opinion.

[UNIBROWshapist]

Kinda in regards to the new battalions, can one unit belong to two battalions? Like can you have two units of hexwraiths, a dreadblade and a coach and get both the death riders and new battalion with just those 2 units of hex wraiths? 

[Sauriv]

23 minutes ago, UNIBROWshapist said:

Kinda in regards to the new battalions, can one unit belong to two battalions? Like can you have two units of hexwraiths, a dreadblade and a coach and get both the death riders and new battalion with just those 2 units of hex wraiths? 

No, a unit can only be part of one battalion. 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Sauriv
Added the rule from core rules

[relic456]

6 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

And the the teleport is classed as a move, it even states it in the rules, that "This counts as their move for that movement phase."

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect but I'll have to gather some sources to prove it. I think it was an FAQ question.
Edit: Yup found it!

Edited December 10, 2019 by relic456

[Tropical Ghost General]

@relic456 I agree that for abilities and other warscroll rules, etc... that it won't affect it. But if you were to directly ask GW whether you can tag the objective on Duality and teleport off it, you will get told that they no longer hold the objective. It's super janky RAW rules lawyering BS, that goes 100% against the intent of the rules for scoring the mission objective. NH aren't the only unit that can teleport, so if this was allowed, then it would have been much more prevalent within tournament play, but I've never seen that missions ever be played in that manner in competitive play.

[relic456]

17 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

@relic456 I agree that for abilities and other warscroll rules, etc... that it won't affect it. But if you were to directly ask GW whether you can tag the objective on Duality and teleport off it, you will get told that they no longer hold the objective. It's super janky RAW rules lawyering BS, that goes 100% against the intent of the rules for scoring the mission objective. NH aren't the only unit that can teleport, so if this was allowed, then it would have been much more prevalent within tournament play, but I've never seen that missions ever be played in that manner in competitive play.

At our tables we always play RAW to avoid any misunderstandings. The rules are pretty explicit but you're welcome to house rule whatever you like

Edited December 10, 2019 by relic456

[Tropical Ghost General]

When doing matched play I also always use RAW, but this is a loophole that I have never come across personally, nor ever seen being used ever in a competitive game. I would be really surprised if a TO allowed this to happen at an event. It's certainly not something that I'd allow at any event I run.

 

[The_Dudemeister]

What happens with Reikenor trying to snuff out his own corpse candle? 🤔

The ability says "if the mw was suffered by this model"... but that doesn't happen. Because DG is a save-before-save, Corpse Candles might not even be triggered as DG prevents the mw to even be allocated to Reikenor.

[relic456]

17 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

When doing matched play I also always use RAW, but this is a loophole that I have never come across personally, nor ever seen being used ever in a competitive game. I would be really surprised if a TO allowed this to happen at an event. It's certainly not something that I'd allow at any event I run.

I mean, you're not playing RAW if you're deciding what is and isn't a loophole lol. That by definition isn't playing RAW. Like I said, you and TOs are welcome to house rule whatever you want.

15 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

What happens with Reikenor trying to snuff out his own corpse candle? 🤔

The ability says "if the mw was suffered by this model"... but that doesn't happen. Because DG is a save-before-save, Corpse Candles might not even be triggered as DG prevents the mw to even be allocated to Reikenor.

Sadly, if Reikenor ignores the wound via Deathless Spirits, he doesn't get his casting bonus. I wish Deathless Spirits was optional.
(I hate it too  )
 

Edited December 10, 2019 by relic456

[Tropical Ghost General]

25 minutes ago, relic456 said:

That by definition isn't playing RAW

Agreed. But when there is an obviously massive mistake in the rules, it common for players to ignore it, it happens a lot with plenty of other rules in plenty of other game systems. Now it's super rare that something like this slips through the net, but it does happen from time to time. GW are not good at picking up on issues quickly enough and it's down to the playing community to self police at times. Look at the Slaanesh supplement from WD, got almost auto-banned from most tournaments even though it had matched play points, because it was utterly bonkers. RAW states it's allowed, but it's still not allowed at the majority of events (certainly in the UK). And it later emerged that the writers hadn't even play tested it, which is even more bonkers. So should it be allowed in events, because RAW states yes, but it clearly is so bent that it leads to a massively negative playing experience?

Now if we are going by strict RAW, then the teleported unit is not allowed to make any sort of move once it has teleported, in order for it to retain the objective, because any move would then be breaking the 'moving outside of 3"' rule required to score the objective. So even pile ins would be classed as a making a move. So the idea that you can teleport a unit, and that it has to then remain absolutely stationary for the remainder of the battle, to retain control of the objective, whilst being much further away from the objective than the required distance needed to control it, due to the early teleporting, yet, that unit is still considered to be in control of the objective, is really grasping at RAW straws to game the rules to suit your own narrative. RAW is 100% needed except when it clearly is getting in the way of RAI. The teleporting off the objective in Duality is just one such example where RAI should be over-riding RAW, which it seems to have done as a whole for most of the playing community.

And as mentioned before, when I have TO'd events I have never had players use this or try to make this happen. When I've been to events, I've never seen this happen. When I've watched live streams from events, I've never seen this happen. So while this is a RAW loophole, I honestly ask you to find someone who TO's an event and get their opinion on whether or not they would allow it, because I don't know any who would or who have allowed this loophole to be allowed at a matched play event. And at the end of the day, from a competitive stance, it is the TO's and event organisers who dictate what is and isn't allowed at events. 

It may be that this is one of those things that we won't be able to agree on 😂.

[relic456]

28 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So should it be allowed in events, because RAW states yes, but it clearly is so bent that it leads to a massively negative playing experience?

My personal take would be if you're going to say your tournament is 100% RAW (admittedly rare, most events I see make their own tweaks), then it should be allowed. If you're not playing RAW, then you can do whatever you like!

28 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Now if we are going by strict RAW, then the teleported unit is not allowed to make any sort of move once it has teleported, in order for it to retain the objective, because any move would then be breaking the 'moving outside of 3"' rule required to score the objective. So even pile ins would be classed as a making a move.

Correct, this is important information for those who want to play RAW. You need to balance the fact that you can hold an objective remotely with the fact that the controlling unit is more or less out of the fight. You need enough points committed so the unit doesn't get easily wiped off the board while also not committing too much and losing battles elsewhere. 

28 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

really grasping at RAW straws to game the rules to suit your own narrative.

RAW has no narrative, it's just literally what's written in the books. My personal opinion on whether it's fair or healthy for the game is irrelevant. It's frankly the opposite, by saying something that is RAW isn't legal, you (the Royal You, not you specifically) are changing the game rules to suit one's idea of what the game should be.

28 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

RAW is 100% needed except when it clearly is getting in the way of RAI. The teleporting off the objective in Duality is just one such example where RAI should be over-riding RAW, which it seems to have done as a whole for most of the playing community.

I personally disagree, and prefer to play with the rules as we have them instead of what we want them to be. But for those players or TOs that feel they need to modify the rules for whatever reason, then they're more than welcome to house rule.

28 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

And as mentioned before, when I have TO'd events I have never had players use this or try to make this happen. When I've been to events, I've never seen this happen. When I've watched live streams from events, I've never seen this happen. So while this is a RAW loophole, I honestly ask you to find someone who TO's an event and get their opinion on whether or not they would allow it, because I don't know any who would or who have allowed this loophole to be allowed at a matched play event. And at the end of the day, from a competitive stance, it is the TO's and event organisers who dictate what is and isn't allowed at events. 

And at the end of the day, from a competitive stance, it is the TO's and event organisers who dictate what is and isn't allowed at events. 

I won't deny your personal experience or even disagree that TOs out there wouldn't allow it. I'm just saying that it's legal RAW. I would never argue with a TO for running the event the way they like. Personally, if I wanted to do it at an event I would just do it, since it's RAW legal, and if the other player took issue with it we would call over a TO. I would explain how by RAW it's legal, and then abide by whatever the TO's determination. If they want to house rule it then that's fine and I would only ask that they clarify the rules pack in the future.

28 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

It may be that this is one of those things that we won't be able to agree on 😂.

I mean, I don't think we even disagree really, it's just our personal preferences. I prefer to play by 100% RAW, you prefer to play by RAW most of the time except where you think it leads to a perceived negative play experience.  I sincerely don't take issue with how TOs or your home tables play it.

As always, I enjoy and appreciate your perspective @Tropical Ghost General and hope this conversation doesn't come off as disrespectful.

Edited December 10, 2019 by relic456

[EnixLHQ]

Let's refocus a bit...

As far as objectives go, it's as simple as what's written. Core Rules, page 10 (in the condensed version), Objectives section, 4th paragraph, last sentence.

HOWEVER

The golden rule is that whatever is written on a battle plan or warscroll card will supercede the core rules. So battle plans like Places of Arcane Power, that have different rules for objective capture, replace the core rules.

Always read the battle plan for yourself.

I'll never endorse cheating or dirty tricks, but knowing lesser known rules, remembering the often overlooked ones, or understanding how they all interact is core to any tactical game.

[relic456]

1 minute ago, EnixLHQ said:

*snip*

I think that's largely @Tropical Ghost General's point (unless I'm misunderstanding yours!). He recognizes how the rules are written, but since it's whacky and  outside from what is "normal" for battleplans, that it's worthy of house ruling out.