AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[dmorley21]

5 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

The problem with this is our army is getting hard countered from all directions. Shooting was our achille's heel before it even existed and now multiple armies are great at it. Multiple armies are also now coming out with a bunch of mortal wound protection. Lowering points are just a stopgap measure. I want them lowered to see if it can make them competitive against the meta. If it doesn't work then the new book is needed asap.

Shooting as Nighthaunt's Achille's heel? I get that our little heroes can be picked off pretty easily, but I've always viewed and played Nighthaunt as a shooting counter. I haven't played recently so I've got no experience against LRL or KO with their points changes, but I've always run over any shooting focused list I've played. The movement/ethereal save/deploy off the board is really a great counter. 

Mortal wound protection, dealing mortal wounds, magic, elite combat armies, and armies that just don't die (or come back a la LoN) are much more troublesome for me. 

[dmorley21]

Like others, I'm also intrigued by what could happen in Enclaves. I'm guessing for Nighthaunt, these would either be called Processions or Wraith Hosts. I only own the books for Cities of Sigmar and Kharadron Overlords, so my knowledge of how strong enclaves are comes from there. However, based on those something along these lines would be great:

- One that juiced up the Black Coach

- One that made focused on generating command points

- One that focused on anti-magic and made Myrmourn Banshees battleline

- One that focused on lowering bravery and made Harridans battleline

- One that focused on movement shenanigans (maybe a hero phase move?) and made Stalkers battleline

- One that focused on magic

 

In addition, if we could possibly get a new model, another behemoth would be fantastic. The Black Coach is just a support piece really, and the Mourngul is Forgeworld, which increasingly seems to not be getting much support and doesn't really fit the army's current vibe (same with Hexwraiths as we know). 

[EnixLHQ]

Shooting is only a problem for NH when you can't shut the ranged units down. It happens, and depending on your play preference that might happen a lot.

Here's a few things to remember that can help against shooty armies:

• If you engage a ranged unit in combat, they can now only shoot at enemy units within 3". Zone in and charge, or otherwise get close to those ranged units to force them to deal with what's in front of them instead of what's 12"-24" inches out.
• All you need to do to claim an objective is have at least 1 model more than your opponent does at the end of your turn within range. Once you claim an objective you don't need to sit on it. If that objective is out in the open and ripe for being shot at, vacate the area in your next movement phase. You only lose the objective if your opponent comes to claim it after you leave. (Unless playing Better Part of Valor or Places of Power which require a Battleline or Leader within 3" at all times to retain claims, respectively)
  • This means you can use Spectral Summons to put models on an objective to claim it once your turn ends.
  • This also means you can use Spectral Summons to take models off of an objective and still claim it, so long as you claimed it at the end of your last turn.
• The Endless Spell Prismatic Palisade blocks line-of-sight. All Endless Spells have footprints. Most will make a ranged unit want to move. If you can't straight-up block sight with the Palisade, you can drop down a Purple Sun or some other spell that will make the enemy want to move around or away from it in order to save models, but doing so often reduces a lot of "stand and shoot" type buffs they get.
• Ask for weapon ranges and plan your movement accordingly.

[SleeperAgent]

5 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Shooting as Nighthaunt's Achille's heel? I get that our little heroes can be picked off pretty easily, but I've always viewed and played Nighthaunt as a shooting counter. I haven't played recently so I've got no experience against LRL or KO with their points changes, but I've always run over any shooting focused list I've played. The movement/ethereal save/deploy off the board is really a great counter. 

Mortal wound protection, dealing mortal wounds, magic, elite combat armies, and armies that just don't die (or come back a la LoN) are much more troublesome for me. 

If you can, try coming up against a competent KO, Seraphon, or Tzeentch player. They will take out 3-4 of your hero's before you can even move. It's very rough.

[Landohammer]

Hey guys, just reporting back in. I have now played 6 games with my new Nighthaunt army that I started and finished in Sept. I have beaten Khorne, Lumineth, Seraphon, Cities, and Ogors. And I wanted to provide some feedback from my experience as a new NH player. 

-I think 2 units of 10 Hexwraiths in Dolorous Guard battallion will be a mainstay in my list. I know hexwraiths are still meh overall but their speed is still really good for a batteline unit, and dolorous guard buff really pushes them into a decent threat range for their points. Throwing 30 attacks that do mortals on 6's is not something people can ignore.

-A single unit of Chainrasps have won me 2 games. A unit of 40 is an absolute steal for 280pts and saving a CP for inspiring presence can make these a huge problem for alpha strikers. I got double turned by 3 bloodthirsters and the chainrasps screened my entire army from being wiped out.

-Olynder is really good but I am learning that most of her work is done in the hero phase, and unless you are willing to deepstrike her right in your opponents face, she often only gets to use her mortal wound abilities once. I still think she is  A tier (in our book at least) but I don't think she is as mandatory as I initially thought. I often wished I had instead spent her 200pts on 2-3 cheaper characters.

-Dreadscythe Harridans can often accomplish the same things that Revenants and Reapers would, but for cheaper. 

-The Blackcoach is the greatest distraction-carnifex ever. I had one opponent who, after spending quite a few resources to take it down, said "man I'm glad that thing is dead. What is its points cost? 400pts?". 🤣

 

[Landohammer]

15 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Like others, I'm also intrigued by what could happen in Enclaves. I'm guessing for Nighthaunt, these would either be called Processions or Wraith Hosts. I only own the books for Cities of Sigmar and Kharadron Overlords, so my knowledge of how strong enclaves are comes from there. However, based on those something along these lines would be great:

- One that juiced up the Black Coach

- One that made focused on generating command points

- One that focused on anti-magic and made Myrmourn Banshees battleline

- One that focused on lowering bravery and made Harridans battleline

- One that focused on movement shenanigans (maybe a hero phase move?) and made Stalkers battleline

- One that focused on magic

 

In addition, if we could possibly get a new model, another behemoth would be fantastic. The Black Coach is just a support piece really, and the Mourngul is Forgeworld, which increasingly seems to not be getting much support and doesn't really fit the army's current vibe (same with Hexwraiths as we know). 

I think we should look to the Sylvaneth and Tzeentch codex updates as an example of what we can probably expect when/if we get a codex refresh. GW is not really into releasing new behemoths to existing factions unless those factions have outdated behemoths that are critical to their function (such as Slaanesh Keepers)

Basically the best case scenario we should expect would be a rules refresh, a new piece of terrain, and maybe a new model (likely just a small character)

In codex refreshes, many of the old battallion abilities were rolled into subfactions, and new battallions were added. This ended up being a pretty huge buff since it granted units access to pretty stout army-wide abilities. Examples include battleline unlocks (screamers) and exploding 6's. (winterleaf)

In our case, I imagine the abilities from Shrieker Host or Death Riders would probably become army-wide abilities tied to subfactions. However the downside would be having your artefact and command traits locked in place (a recurring theme among new codexes). 

So while having army-wide +1 to charge could be seen as a game changer, losing free access to the Pendant of the Fell Wind or Midnight Tome could be a pretty harsh trade-off. 

Here is hoping that the Broken Realms expansion really fleshes us out. In the 40k the Psychic Awakening expansions added so much content to each army that it was essentially a codex rewrite. 

[Tikhunt]

3 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Hey guys, just reporting back in. I have now played 6 games with my new Nighthaunt army that I started and finished in Sept. I have beaten Khorne, Lumineth, Seraphon, Cities, and Ogors. And I wanted to provide some feedback from my experience as a new NH player. 

-I think 2 units of 10 Hexwraiths in Dolorous Guard battallion will be a mainstay in my list. I know hexwraiths are still meh overall but their speed is still really good for a batteline unit, and dolorous guard buff really pushes them into a decent threat range for their points. Throwing 30 attacks that do mortals on 6's is not something people can ignore.

-A single unit of Chainrasps have won me 2 games. A unit of 40 is an absolute steal for 280pts and saving a CP for inspiring presence can make these a huge problem for alpha strikers. I got double turned by 3 bloodthirsters and the chainrasps screened my entire army from being wiped out.

-Olynder is really good but I am learning that most of her work is done in the hero phase, and unless you are willing to deepstrike her right in your opponents face, she often only gets to use her mortal wound abilities once. I still think she is  A tier (in our book at least) but I don't think she is as mandatory as I initially thought. I often wished I had instead spent her 200pts on 2-3 cheaper characters.

-Dreadscythe Harridans can often accomplish the same things that Revenants and Reapers would, but for cheaper. 

-The Blackcoach is the greatest distraction-carnifex ever. I had one opponent who, after spending quite a few resources to take it down, said "man I'm glad that thing is dead. What is its points cost? 400pts?". 🤣

 

As a new Nighthaunt player yet to play with them a couple of things.

The 2 units of 10 hexwraiths and unit of 40 chainrasps being good is great news, I'm a fan of both those things (despite others saying hexwraiths look out of place). I think Grimghast reapers are boring as a battleline option when looking at their warscroll card and comparing it to Bladeghiests. 

Have you tried the Craven King or any Glaivewraiths yet? They're stuff I'm eager to try but seem vastly overshadowed from batreps etc that I've watched. 

[Landohammer]

5 minutes ago, Tikhunt said:

As a new Nighthaunt player yet to play with them a couple of things.

The 2 units of 10 hexwraiths and unit of 40 chainrasps being good is great news, I'm a fan of both those things (despite others saying hexwraiths look out of place). I think Grimghast reapers are boring as a battleline option when looking at their warscroll card and comparing it to Bladeghiests. 

Have you tried the Craven King or any Glaivewraiths yet? They're stuff I'm eager to try but seem vastly overshadowed from batreps etc that I've watched. 

Nice! I don't really get the hate on the hexwraith kits. They hold up well and help break up the monotony of an all infantry list. I have painted 25 of them and they probably get more compliments than my harridans or rasps. 

I have tried the Craven King in one game and he is absolutely fine. He is a really good candidate for the generic "reroll 1's to hit" command ability (or just a Spirit Torment) if you have any CP to spare. I don't think I ever got his 5+ CP stealing ability to actually go off but he ended up just being a reliable beatstick.  My only holdup with him is that Olynder is only 20 more points and tends to be a bit more useful in most situations.

However, there are some armies that cannot function without a CP on turn 1 so I can see him being really critical in certain matchups.

Glavewraith stalkers have two primary uses: Test models for trying out your paint scheme, or being melted down in acetone for use as basing goo. 

[Thamalys]

39 minutes ago, Tikhunt said:

he 2 units of 10 hexwraiths and unit of 40 chainrasps being good is great news

I'd say that 40 Chainrasps is a slightly more solid choice than whatever amounts of Hexwraiths. The latter are not bad at all, but even as Dolorous Guard they lack any proper punch, which is a shame given how quick they are - that's my only problem with them. 

43 minutes ago, Tikhunt said:

I think Grimghast reapers are boring as a battleline option when looking at their warscroll card and comparing it to Bladeghiests.

They are effectively overcosted in Nighthaunt - this has been said multiple times, but they really should be pointed differently according to wether you are fileding them in Nighthaunt (I'd say 130 pts) or Legion of Nagash (160 pts is fair in that case, bringing back whole blocks of 30 Reapers is still a very powerful mechanic). Note however that Bladegheists are not battleline (not sure if that's what you were saying/comparing?). Also Bladegheists need a Spirit Torment nearby (the good ol' "wholly within" nonsense does apply...) to re-roll all of their hits (3+). Reapers are largely self-sufficient instead - if engaging units with 5+ models - especially in big blocks of 20-30. The 2" reach is a massive plus - try to get 20 Bladegheists in... different roles, of course. I just think that Reapers still have a place, albeit, as battleline, nothing beats 40 chainrasps. It's an objective game after all.

46 minutes ago, Tikhunt said:

Have you tried the Craven King or any Glaivewraiths yet?

Kurdoss... I never managed to get it work (most likely my inability to select the right targets, but this King is a slow one and needs support to do stuff). It's a hero with zero support abilities for the rest of your army and with a very swingy melee mechanics that failed to deliver in most cases. Stealing CPs ona  5+ is nice, but it's not enough. He did come down on points, which is great, butI'm still not a fan. The model is such a joy to paint, though!

35 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Glavewraith stalkers have two primary uses: Test models for trying out your paint scheme, or being melted down in acetone for use as basing goo. 

So true. I have given mine (Soul Wars box...) to my 3-year old so that he could "paint" them in a very cheerful rainbow-like color scheme... they'll never see a tabletop, I am afraid. Or maybe it's all a ruse, and GW is secretly working to a new Battallion where they hit and wound on 2+... 

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Tikhunt said:

As a new Nighthaunt player yet to play with them a couple of things.

The 2 units of 10 hexwraiths and unit of 40 chainrasps being good is great news, I'm a fan of both those things (despite others saying hexwraiths look out of place). I think Grimghast reapers are boring as a battleline option when looking at their warscroll card and comparing it to Bladeghiests. 

Have you tried the Craven King or any Glaivewraiths yet? They're stuff I'm eager to try but seem vastly overshadowed from batreps etc that I've watched. 

Dolorous Guard Hexwraiths perform better than they look on paper. I've been running 2x5, but making some room for 2x10 is in my very near future.

Chainrasps are a staple of most Nighthaunt lists, even more so than Reapers or Bladegheists. Unless performing a very specific function, you can't really going wrong bringing 30-40 of these guys. No better way to get wounds on the table for the cost, and if you pair them with any +hit or +attacks buff and they start swinging hard.

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

I have tried the Craven King in one game and he is absolutely fine. He is a really good candidate for the generic "reroll 1's to hit" command ability (or just a Spirit Torment) if you have any CP to spare. I don't think I ever got his 5+ CP stealing ability to actually go off but he ended up just being a reliable beatstick.  My only holdup with him is that Olynder is only 20 more points and tends to be a bit more useful in most situations.

However, there are some armies that cannot function without a CP on turn 1 so I can see him being really critical in certain matchups.

Honestly, Kurdoss is such a technical choice. Great to distract with, but not as strong of a damage output as Olynder unless you can get him up on the enemy general. And even then it's iffy, if you roll a couple 6's then yes provided the damage isn't saved against. Olynder beats that out by doing more mortal wound damage that will stick.

But his CP stealing is probably the most appetizing, but also the least reliable part of his kit. A 5+ only on the CP your opponent gets at the top of the turn? I was lucky enough once to steal 3 in a game with him, but I have had far more games where he's stolen 0.

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

Nice! I don't really get the hate on the hexwraith kits. They hold up well and help break up the monotony of an all infantry list. I have painted 25 of them and they probably get more compliments than my harridans or rasps. 

Glavewraith stalkers have two primary uses: Test models for trying out your paint scheme, or being melted down in acetone for use as basing goo. 

I swear, if my Hexwraith's scythes break just one more time, I'm ripping them all off the horses and glueing Glavewraiths on in their place.

41 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

I'd say that 40 Chainrasps is a slightly more solid choice than whatever amounts of Hexwraiths. The latter are not bad at all, but even as Dolorous Guard they lack any proper punch, which is a shame given how quick they are - that's my only problem with them.

Are you sure? Don't discount mortal wounds. Even a single mortal wound is a stronger damage advantage than 2-4 standard wounds when given an enemy save and that save value (especially if there's a save-after-save). A pack of 5 Hexwraiths in DG will get 11 chances at a mortal at rest, and 16 if they charged, getting about 2-4 mortals each time. Everything else is cake.

Yeah, less mortal potential than a Spirit Host per model, but if you add a Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed for a +1 attacks CA or a Spirit Torment's re-roll 1's, or spending a CP on All-Out Attack, whoo boy. And move 12 inches?

I'm telling you, don't let the paper math fool you. Give them a chance and run them a few times.

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, Thamalys said:

So true. I have given mine (Soul Wars box...) to my 3-year old so that he could "paint" them in a very cheerful rainbow-like color scheme... they'll never see a tabletop, I am afraid. Or maybe it's all a ruse, and GW is secretly working to a new Battallion where they hit and wound on 2+... 

Its funny/sad because we all somehow end up with like 20 of the dang things.

I will say this: In the old tzeentch and Sylvaneth codex, Flamers and Spites were trash units that nobody even bothered painting or fielding. But when the codex refreshes came out they were completely overhauled and both became completely new units. Spites went from a similar profile to Glaivewraith to a respectable 3A 3+/3+ profile without any points increase. 

So currently I am holding out hope that Glaives will get a rewrite from the ground up. Not sure what their role will be in an army already overloaded with elite melee infantry, but one can hope. 

 

[EnixLHQ]

1 minute ago, Landohammer said:

Its funny/sad because we all somehow end up with like 20 of the dang things.

I will say this: In the old tzeentch and Sylvaneth codex, Flamers and Spites were trash units that nobody even bothered painting or fielding. But when the codex refreshes came out they were completely overhauled and both became completely new units. Spites went from a similar profile to Glaivewraith to a respectable 3A 3+/3+ profile without any points increase. 

So currently I am holding out hope that Glaives will get a rewrite from the ground up. Not sure what their role will be in an army already overloaded with elite melee infantry, but one can hope. 

 

This is the reason I haven't clipped up the 32 I have lying around. Just waiting. Hoping...

[Thamalys]

2 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Are you sure? Don't discount mortal wounds. Even a single mortal wound is a stronger damage advantage than 2-4 standard wounds when given an enemy save and that save value (especially if there's a save-after-save). A pack of 5 Hexwraiths in DG will get 11 chances at a mortal at rest, and 16 if they charged, getting about 2-4 mortals each time. Everything else is cake.

Yeah, less mortal potential than a Spirit Host per model, but if you add a Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed for a +1 attacks CA or a Spirit Torment's re-roll 1's, or spending a CP on All-Out Attack, whoo boy. And move 12 inches?

I'm telling you, don't let the paper math fool you. Give them a chance and run them a few times.

I did run them a few times... don't get me wrong, they are really useful.  What I was trying to say is that, in terms of thinking about filling the battleline slots, I would prioritise the Rasps as opposed to the Hexwraiths. 40 Rasps is a lot of models that can't be shifted too easily (nothing compared to Berzerkers, Mortek Guard,  etc. but still...) and in my opinion decently resilient big (or big-ish) blobs are a key element of any Nighthaunt list. Hexwraiths are very fast, they fly over things and captures objectives easily - great for banking victory points early in the game or, conversely, toward the end if you still have them running around. But thinking of using Hexwraiths as objective keepers... I mean, it could probably be done, but the points cost will skyrocket and whatever you do, 40 bodies is always better than 10 when the only difference is a 4+ vs 5+ etheral save (it's easier to bring back rasps than hexwraiths as well via our spells and so on).

And no, I don't think Hexwraiths can be regarded as something that is there to do damage. 2-4 mortal wounds is very little output. Marginally better in DG, sure, but you don't get to charge them that often when in DG, as they have to stay within 3" of, say, a rather slowly Olynder (usually - other options are there, of course). I would never spend CPs on making Hexwraiths  better in terms of offensive capabilities. For one thing, spending a CP on 5-10 models is far from being ideal (spending a CP on e.g. 40 rasps / 30 reapers would be much more cost effective), but most importantly, Hexwraiths are much faster than a spirit torment. The KoS on steed is an interesting option (he'd be able to keep up with them), but I can't personally move away from running Hexwraiths as DG and guarding Olynder - which in turns robs me from the DreadBlade/Summons combo (sad).

Again, I'm not saying they're bad at all - when thinking about a potential list, though, I think of them as either (costly) objective grabbers or bodyguard for Olynder in DG, not blocks of killy cavalry and/or objective keepers!

 

[EnixLHQ]

4 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

And no, I don't think Hexwraiths can be regarded as something that is there to do damage. 2-4 mortal wounds is very little output. Marginally better in DG, sure, but you don't get to charge them that often when in DG, as they have to stay within 3" of, say, a rather slowly Olynder (usually - other options are there, of course). I would never spend CPs on making Hexwraiths  better in terms of offensive capabilities. For one thing, spending a CP on 5-10 models is far from being ideal (spending a CP on e.g. 40 rasps / 30 reapers would be much more cost effective), but most importantly, Hexwraiths are much faster than a spirit torment. The KoS on steed is an interesting option (he'd be able to keep up with them), but I can't personally move away from running Hexwraiths as DG and guarding Olynder - which in turns robs me from the DreadBlade/Summons combo (sad).

Again, I'm not saying they're bad at all - when thinking about a potential list, though, I think of them as either (costly) objective grabbers or bodyguard for Olynder in DG, not blocks of killy cavalry and/or objective keepers!

Well, you're right. You kind of touch on what I'm getting at, but I'm suggesting expanding the tactic. Run the DG with no regard to whoever your general is. Pair them with an equally fast hero, or one with the Pendant of Fell Wind so it can keep up, and then send them off into yonder fields to grab objectives and slam into enemy heroes in the backfield. A Spirit Torment, for example, with the Pendant can move 9" and then run for more. You don't want heroes fighting anyway, so run them into aura range of where the Hexies are going to end up after their charge so they can just stand there and give the Hexies re-rolling 1s when they get there.

You don't want them defending anything, that's true. You want them hunting. They're hunters. They can pick up an objective and then leave it to go lay a trap somewhere else, even if all that is ends up being tieing up an advancing enemy line outside the 6" objective bubble they claimed earlier with their bodies for a turn or two.

The secondary ability of Knights of Regret, the wound-sharing with your general, is very tasty and who doesn't love a 20+ wound hero, but it's just one of the two things they can do. If things are going south for your general you can always try to bring them back, doing retreat and run moves to get them near your general to start absorbing wounds again. Even better if your general has RotSH and Hexies start reappearing.

[dmorley21]

Wow, lots of good conversation! It's great to see the discussion. This is going to be long, because there's a lot I want to hit on:

Versus Shooting

This is mainly @SleeperAgent. So the caveat is I haven't played a game in a long time (since COVID broke out in the US). I totally forgot about the Seraphon book even. However, shooting was big in my meta (Tzeentch, literally every type of shooting Cities of Sigmar, Skaven, Shootcast) and due to that I never focused on small heroes that I needed to stay alive to buff my units. I was always able to hide my Dreadblade Harrow from shooting, I had Reikenor usually with Cogs up and slowed down to give him a re-rollable 4+ ethereal/6+ which made him pretty durable. Before Dolorous Guard I ran Death Stalkers and had a Cairn Wraith that nobody spent any time worrying about, and after DG I'd run Olynder and would win any game where my opponent decided to try and focus fire her. I did usually have a Guardian of Souls, but I usually deepstruck it so it was never in the way of danger and it wasn't something I relied upon. 

Dolorous Guard

I've only ever tried this battalion with two units of 5 Hexwraiths protecting Olynder as my general, but wow does it do some work. The Hexwraiths were never that impressive on their own, but when combined with the damage Lady O was dealing they were able to do some major damage. I'd be curious to up the unit size of the Hexwraiths (though I don't like the models and found them challenging to build), but my biggest fear is that a unit that big would become a little too unwieldy and I'd be putting too many points into one threat blob. I do think they're a great choice though. 

Battleline

The Nighthaunt book has a lot of problems, but battleline isn't one of them. I think all of Grimghast Reapers, Spirit Hosts, and Hexwraiths could be cheaper, sure; but they're all great and have their purpose. I've almost always had more than 3 batteline units in my lists. 

The one I seem to need to defend is Grimghasts - I get that their price point sucks compared to what it used to be, but I can't imagine playing a list without a unit of 30. They are the only unit in our book that really doesn't need any support whatsoever (though I always try to give them a hero for Deathless Spirits). They also have a very specific purpose that other units just can't do: wipe out a horde. The 2" range on them just makes them so much more efficient than than Bladegheists and Harridans at dealing with hordes. It's not even comparable IMO. 

Glaivewrath Stalkers

I'm probably one of the only people who has used these competitively... and they're bad. I ran the Death Stalkers battalion, so I was stuck with 2 units of 4, and they were useful at grabbing forgotten objectives... but I always would have rather had 10 Chainrasps for 20 more points. What a dumb unit. 

I think the most obvious fix for the is to make them two wounds (they are the combined souls of a rider and a horse after all) and make them actual hunters that focus on taking out more elite units. Give them a single -2 rend, D3 damage attack and the special rule from the Death Stalkers battalion and now you've got yourself a unit with a unique role in the army that makes sense to field in units of 4. 

Kurdoss

Never used him, and now that we lost Aetherquartz Brooch I can see the temptation... but still, no, not really. It just boils down to opportunity cost. He can deal some damage, sure, but not enough on paper to make him a beat stick. And he's just no versatile at all. The other two special characters are kind of Swiss Army Knives - both Lady O and Reikenor can do quite a bit. Or if you've got the extra points, a Black Coach seems like it could be a lot of fun. 

Success

In my experience, a lot of my success when playing Nighthaunt comes from presenting my opponent with what they perceive as threats. A block of 30 Reapers? Welp, they know that can pack a punch and they have to deal with that. Lady Olynder supported with some Dolorous Guard? They've got to game plan against that. Reikenor flying around and being a general thorn in their side ? Something else that needs to be dealt with (especially because I tend to bring a Purple Sun with him). Units are waiting in the Underworld? Have to gameplan for that. 

Then, this allows my smaller or less intimidating units to come in and actually win me the game (Chainrasps, units of 10 Harridans or Bladegheists, etc.) Pretty much, the more you can give your opponent to consider, the more likely there will be a mistake that you can capitalize on. 

Broken Realms

Still, the army just isn't where it needs to be. I'm not so big on the resurrection aspect of the army - I'd like to see them play more like the shock force they are in the lore. They already do this a bit, but it needs to be really upped to where they're more like KO but with a combat instead of a shooting focus - maybe even an enclave/procession that allows the whole army to retreat and charge. Whatever the fix ends up being, I hope @Landohammer is right and that Broken Realms does really flesh out the faction. 

[Landohammer]

17 hours ago, Thamalys said:

 

And no, I don't think Hexwraiths can be regarded as something that is there to do damage. 2-4 mortal wounds is very little output. Marginally better in DG, sure, but you don't get to charge them that often when in DG, as they have to stay within 3" of, say, a rather slowly Olynder (usually - other options are there, of course). I would never spend CPs on making Hexwraiths  better in terms of offensive capabilities. For one thing, spending a CP on 5-10 models is far from being ideal (spending a CP on e.g. 40 rasps / 30 reapers would be much more cost effective), but most importantly, Hexwraiths are much faster than a spirit torment. The KoS on steed is an interesting option (he'd be able to keep up with them), but I can't personally move away from running Hexwraiths as DG and guarding Olynder - which in turns robs me from the DreadBlade/Summons combo (sad).

Again, I'm not saying they're bad at all - when thinking about a potential list, though, I think of them as either (costly) objective grabbers or bodyguard for Olynder in DG, not blocks of killy cavalry and/or objective keepers!

 

So my success with DG has come while completely discarding the body guard function, and instead focusing on capitalizing on the +1 attack. If you dedicate 130+ points to guarding Olynder, she is no longer a 200pt character, but instead becomes a 330 point character. And her abilities are just too short of range to be worth that much investment. 

In my experience, the key to being successful with DG is exploiting the +1A by taking larger units of Hexwraiths. Now my 260pt unit of Hexwraiths has 60 attacks on the charge, and when I roll a Wave of Terror it becomes 120 attacks . That is a pretty sizeable amount of threat for a 260pt batteline unit. Especially since movement 12-15 allows you to pretty much pick your ideal combats. 

Also lets not forget that larger units of Hexwraiths do more damage on their flyover attack as well. 

 

 

[Landohammer]

14 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

 

Success

In my experience, a lot of my success when playing Nighthaunt comes from presenting my opponent with what they perceive as threats. A block of 30 Reapers? Welp, they know that can pack a punch and they have to deal with that. Lady Olynder supported with some Dolorous Guard? They've got to game plan against that. Reikenor flying around and being a general thorn in their side ? Something else that needs to be dealt with (especially because I tend to bring a Purple Sun with him). Units are waiting in the Underworld? Have to gameplan for that. 

Then, this allows my smaller or less intimidating units to come in and actually win me the game (Chainrasps, units of 10 Harridans or Bladegheists, etc.) Pretty much, the more you can give your opponent to consider, the more likely there will be a mistake that you can capitalize on. 

 

^^^This is 100% the only way to win with NIghthaunt in its current format IMHO.

The feedback from my opponents has been that they don't know how to manage the threats from my army because each unit is a threat and more often than not I get to pick my battles.

The way to capitalize on this is to make sure each unit is large enough to be some kind of threat in its own right but not large enough to be crippling if you lose it. So that is why I steer clear from 30 man units of Reapers and over-investing in Bladegheist Revenants. Those are fantastic units but they are heavy point sinks.

Sometimes 10 Harridans or 10 DG Hexwraiths properly supported/buffed are all you need to cripple a unit. And crippling a unit can be just as useful as destroying it. We often win the long game since our models grow back and we don't flubb battleshock tests. 

This exact scenario happened when I was fighting Khorne. 10 Harridans aren't strong enough to kill a bloodthirster. But I was able to bracket him hard enough to where he couldn't fight efficiently.

Skarbrand was another story though. Turns out he brackets in reverse. That was a hard lesson lol. 

 

[Thamalys]

4 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

So my success with DG has come while completely discarding the body guard function, and instead focusing on capitalizing on the +1 attack. If you dedicate 130+ points to guarding Olynder, she is no longer a 200pt character, but instead becomes a 330 point character. And her abilities are just too short of range to be worth that much investment. 

In my experience, the key to being successful with DG is exploiting the +1A by taking larger units of Hexwraiths. Now my 260pt unit of Hexwraiths has 60 attacks on the charge, and when I roll a Wave of Terror it becomes 120 attacks . That is a pretty sizeable amount of threat for a 260pt batteline unit. Especially since movement 12-15 allows you to pretty much pick your ideal combats. 

Also lets not forget that larger units of Hexwraiths do more damage on their flyover attack as well. 

 

 

Oh, I see! An interesting proposition... I have never thought about it to be honest! Ok, but then you are paying 120 pts for the Dolorous Guard "just" to give two units of (10, I guess? you mention 260 pts) Hexwraiths +1 attack?

A Knight of Shroud on Ethereal Steed, which comes at 120 pts (same as the Dolorous Guard) will give you a exactly the same bonus (+1 attack on all melee weapons). Sure, that will cost you a CP / unit and keeping the Hexwraiths wholly within 18" of him it's not entirely straightforward, but still! The Knight CA can be deployed even if the Hexwraith did not charge and you get an actual 6-wound mobile character for 120 pts instead of investing in a battalion.

Now, about the 120 attacks for a 260 pts battle line unit... let's take away the Wave of Terror possibility (rare to start with, but crucially it applies to any unit in the book, so...) and we have 60. Half of those are the horses, which don't do mortal wounds, hit on 4+ and wound on 5+. That's 5 points of damage against a unit with no save, so let's be honest, those 30 attacks from the horses are hard to factor into it proper. In fact, doing the math, those 60 attacks are going to deal, on average, 11.94 points of damage against a 4+ save (that's including the mortal wounds output, of course).  And, you're are paying 120 pts for the +1 attack, so you are effectively paying 260 pts + 120 pts = 380 pts for that sort of output.

Having said that, Nighthaunt don't deal much damage to start with, so...  in terms of battleline, we are on par with the rest. Say, 9 Spirit Hosts (360 pts, similar investment as the Dolorous Guard Hexwraiths) deal on average 11.25 points of damage against the same 4+ save - but, they are not as mobile and they don't do mortal wounds while flying over things.

All in all, an interesting take on this battalion... thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[Landohammer]

3 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

Oh, I see! An interesting proposition... I have never thought about it to be honest! Ok, but then you are paying 120 pts for the Dolorous Guard "just" to give two units of (10, I guess? you mention 260 pts) Hexwraiths +1 attack?

A Knight of Shroud on Ethereal Steed, which comes at 120 pts (same as the Dolorous Guard) will give you a exactly the same bonus (+1 attack on all melee weapons). Sure, that will cost you a CP / unit and keeping the Hexwraiths wholly within 18" of him it's not entirely straightforward, but still! The Knight CA can be deployed even if the Hexwraith did not charge and you get an actual 6-wound mobile character for 120 pts instead of investing in a battalion.

Now, about the 120 attacks for a 260 pts battle line unit... let's take away the Wave of Terror possibility (rare to start with, but crucially it applies to any unit in the book, so...) and we have 60. Half of those are the horses, which don't do mortal wounds, hit on 4+ and wound on 5+. That's 5 points of damage against a unit with no save, so let's be honest, those 30 attacks from the horses are hard to factor into it proper. In fact, doing the math, those 60 attacks are going to deal, on average, 11.94 points of damage against a 4+ save (that's including the mortal wounds output, of course).  And, you're are paying 120 pts for the +1 attack, so you are effectively paying 260 pts + 120 pts = 380 pts for that sort of output.

Having said that, Nighthaunt don't deal much damage to start with, so...  in terms of battleline, we are on par with the rest. Say, 9 Spirit Hosts (360 pts, similar investment as the Dolorous Guard Hexwraiths) deal on average 11.25 points of damage against the same 4+ save - but, they are not as mobile and they don't do mortal wounds while flying over things.

All in all, an interesting take on this battalion... thanks for sharing your thoughts!

You are not wrong. Hexwraiths are far from a fantastic unit. And you are also correct that the 120pt cost of DG (or any battallion) should be factored in to our comparisons. But battalions come with a lot more intrinsic benefits that are hard to measure. Specifically the extra CP, second artefact, and reduction in drops. So I am confident in saying that the battallion tax isn't really dead weight. At least not as much as a dedicated body guard. 

Also hexwraiths are some of the fastest natural battleline in the game. The 12" move plus fly increases the value of each of those attacks, because they are going precisely where I want them. Hammerers and Spites have insanely good melee profiles for battleline units. Especially given their points cost. (better than anything we can field) But the reason you don't see them in tournaments is because their movement is awful lol.

I have found that on the tabletop throwing 30 dice fishing for mortals is quite anxiety inducing for most opponents. I have rolled anywhere from 1-10 sixes in those 30 dice and for many elite armies that can be terrifying. So it really makes your hexwraiths into a wildcard unit that even experienced opponents won't know how to measure. 

 

[SleeperAgent]

Well with the Morathi book confirming armies can get new warscrolls, battalions and more importantly ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES what are we hoping for mostly my fellow spooky boys?

 

I want one of the allegiances to wreck bravery. Like a ability, spell, trait, and artefact that all attack/lower bravery.

And one that gives the entire army frightful touch (with multiple instances triggering separately like one spirit hosts). Though for balance reasons that would have to probably be a battalion.

Edited October 28, 2020 by SleeperAgent

[The_Dudemeister]

1 hour ago, SleeperAgent said:

I want one of the allegiances to wreck bravery. Like a ability, spell, trait, and artefact that all attack/lower bravery.

Anyone remember what a Tomb Banshee is?

 

We've talked for almost 200 pages in this thread about great and not so great units like Glaivewraiths. Tomb Banshees are so far off the grid that they're not even part of our discussions. I'm almost inclined to check if they're actually part of the Nighthaunt line and I'm not bullshitting myself here.

 

I want Tomb Banshees to be amazing! I want Tomb Banshees to be effectively one of the strongest shooting units in the game. Geedubs has shown with Seraphon Salamanders or Tzeentch Flamers that they're very ok to give oppressive shooting to cheap units. And I want bravery debuffs to be so harsh that every opponent needs to constantly keep spare CP for passing morale tests lest they want to get SPOOKED by us!

 

James Workshop, make it so!

[lare2]

59 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Anyone remember what a Tomb Banshee is?

Went to a narrative tourney earlier in the year. Was pretty much the last tourney I went to before the world broke. Was an awesome event. We were allowed to bring a free 100pt model to act as a guide for our main 2k force. Specifically painted up and ran my banshee as my guide. Loved it, despite her doing sweet f.a. all weekend long. 

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Anyone remember what a Tomb Banshee is?

My first complete army was Vampire Counts back in the day and the Tomb Banshee was often my MVP. It helped that my enemies were Orcs & Goblins, Skaven, and monster heavy Dark Elves.

Anyway, I would love for the Tomb Banshee to be good. Give her another attack and the army another way to debuff bravery and I'm happy to try her. 

I think Glaivewrath Stalkers are the most likely to get a warscroll rewrite. 

[Sauriv]

2 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Anyone remember what a Tomb Banshee is?

Every time in the past when I've tried to build more towards bravary debuff (in NH and later in LoG) i wanted my Tomb Banshees to do the damage after the debuffs were in place but i have struggled because of leader limitations. I wanted many Tomb Banshees to do dmg but i needed other heroes to do the casting of spells and so on. 

I would love to see a similar approach to the Tomb Banshee as in the fyreslayers book where Doomseeker and Grimwrath Berserker are heroes but not leaders, so you can spam them if you want. 

I also wanted to see a change to Inspiring Presence  in the latest GHB but sadly not this time. I want it to be a flat buff to bravery characteristic, say +10 bravery for each cp spent, and that you can spam it on the same unit if you want. That would be beneficial for bravery debuffing synergies instead of just shutting them down by "spend a cp and be 100% safe".  This would also make it more expensive for a cowardly army to never fail battleshock tests after heavy losses. 

#makebraverygreatagain

[Thamalys]

9 hours ago, Sauriv said:

#makebraverygreatagain

🤣