AoS 2 - Hosts of Slaanesh Discussion

[Carnith]

I don’t the battalion is valid.

 

that said, I still like them and my first game with them is going to include them. If only they got to benefit from the revellers battalion. Seems silly to include them and not got any bonus, I guess thrown in there so that they can one dropped with a hedonite host

[Unit1126PLL]

The problem I am having bringing Fiends is how not helpful they are. The Keeper of Secrets is an excellent monster hunter, and you want a HERO to hunt monsters anyways because you get Depravity Points and monsters typically have multiple wounds.

The fiends are good monster hunters, but don't generate Depravity and don't earn it when they get hurt back by the baddies.
The fiends aren't so great horde hunters.
The fiends are cheaper monster hunters than a Keeper, but not cheap enough to actually be a cheap unit.

I struggle to think of what role the fiends would provide in my army. Even dicking with wizards is better served by the Epitome and/or the Enrapturess. The Fiends are a solution without a problem imo.

[SwampHeart]

I just can't fit them in a list - you need bodies of some sort to be on the table, you need a healthy character allotment, and by the time you check those 2 boxes I don't have the points left for fiends. I feel like they need to be run in a unit of 6 to be actually effective and you're eating up 20% of a 2k list with that unit. 

[Carnith]

I think they fit in supporting as a body guard. Got a herald on foot with no way to deal enough damage to kill a monster? Locus the monster and swing first with the herald. Get as much damage as possible, then swing with fiends to finish it off. Your hero is still safe and you got some depravity. I don’t mind my heroes dying but they get more use by being alive especially if you run the hero battalion. Heroes dying means less cp.

[Unit1126PLL]

4 minutes ago, carnith said:

I think they fit in supporting as a body guard. Got a herald on foot with no way to deal enough damage to kill a monster? Locus the monster and swing first with the herald. Get as much damage as possible, then swing with fiends to finish it off. Your hero is still safe and you got some depravity. I don’t mind my heroes dying but they get more use by being alive especially if you run the hero battalion. Heroes dying means less cp.

Yeah but for the price of Herald + Fiends  you get Shalaxi Helbane, who locuses better than the herald, does more damage than the herald (quite possibly more than the Fiends as well against hero-monsters, which are common), has greater durability than the Herald and fiends, and is a better spellcaster than the Herald.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Unit1126PLL

[Carnith]

Sure, I guess I also look at it as they can contest objectives as well, the fiends can move off to support elsewhere. Perhaps they will be forever shelved, and maybe they don’t go in competetive lists, but they are still super strong units even if they don’t generate depravity. 

Do we think with the rise in points of fiends other similar role units like kurnoth hunters or enlightened will either stay near this price or increase in cost? Cause fiends were costed similar to those units but a 30 point increase while enlightened are at 140.

[whispersofblood]

30 minutes ago, carnith said:

Sure, I guess I also look at it as they can contest objectives as well, the fiends can move off to support elsewhere. Perhaps they will be forever shelved, and maybe they don’t go in competetive lists, but they are still super strong units even if they don’t generate depravity. 

Do we think with the rise in points of fiends other similar role units like kurnoth hunters or enlightened will either stay near this price or increase in cost? Cause fiends were costed similar to those units but a 30 point increase while enlightened are at 140.

At 2k, I just don't see the space for Fiends. At 1250 and less I could see them being paid for with points maybe. 

Tbh I'm not even sure I would summon them over seekers.
 

[CB42]

Watching the Warhammer TV stream of Slaanesh vs Khorne, the Slaanesh list looks like it's absolutely just smashing the Khorne army nand it's only turn 2. Slaanesh: has a Pretenders KOS with +2 attacks on his impaling claws, a Syll'Esske, a Contorted Epitome, some Daemonettes in a Revellers battalion, and I didn't see the rest of the army. The Khorne army has Skarbrand and Archaon and some screening units and some buffing units.

The Keeper just one shot Skarbrand before Skarbrand could fight. Syll'Esske ate a screen by themselves and then piled in to kill the Bloodstoker hiding behind them. Archaon took a bunch of damage from Daemonettes before he was able to kill them. At every turn, the Slaaneshi army is doing amazingly well.

Edited May 1, 2019 by CB42

[exliontamer]

It's almost as if they want the army with the shiny new battletome and models to do well in the stream all their customers are watching...

(I am being a bit snarky, but when you used the words Skarbrand and Archaon in the same sentence as "Khorne army" I know you're not talking about a serious/well-composed list.)

[Rock Lobster]

I think Fiends time has passed, people would be struggling to fit them in at their previous points and now they are not going to make it for sure.

This is in spite of the fact they are a great unit. Here is what makes it a very poor choice to take them:

• They only work well in units of 4 or more, meaning a minimum investment of 420 points. For that you can get a keeper of secrets and half a battalion!
• They are not battleline - this is a HUGE downside for both them and seekers. The army is structured in such a way that you want the max amount of characters and as big of characters as you can plus your battleline tax. While more points spent in battleline can be good since you can invest less than a couple of hundred points into a unit of daemonettes to make it mighty since some tax had to be paid anyway, the fiends eat directly into your character points providing no upside and creating weakness.
• They do not really fit in the useful battalions - adding them weakens your army and increases drops
• The depravity system screams 6 characters, the character battalion screams 6 characters, the locus rules and spells scream more greater daemons if possible, the depravity system wants more points in bigger characters - a competant size unit of fiends flies in the face of all of this, either knocking your characters down to mini characters or having to remove 1-2.
• You cant even summon a unit of 6, only a unit of 3 making them not even worth bringing as a side board for summoning,

I love fiends and to me it was a real shame to see them go this way. If they were battleline in say a godseekers allegience at their orignal points cost I could see certain builds finding a place for them. At their current points and not being battle line they will not see play in a list going for the most competitive build.

I would argue that no non character units that are outside of battleline will see play. The only reason to do so would be the battalion from wrath and rapture for another cheap battalion, and sadly I think now the tax is a little steep on that battalion in addition to the battleline tax, puts you a minimum of 230 points outside of battleline, characters or battalion cost in the hole which could be an exalted seeker charriot which gives 9 dp even if it just dies, is a hard hitting character, a spell caster and all around better piece.

[Kasper]

4 minutes ago, CB42 said:

Watching the Warhammer TV stream of Slaanesh vs Khorne, the Slaanesh list looks like it's absolutely just smashing the Khorne army nand it's only turn 2. Slaanesh: has a Pretenders KOS with +2 attacks on his impaling claws, a Syll'Esske, a Contorted Epitome, some Daemonettes in a Revellers battalion, and I didn't see the rest of the army. The Khorne army has Skarbrand and Archaon and some screening units and some buffing units.

The Keeper just one shot Skarbrand before Skarbrand could fight. Syll'Esske ate a screen by themselves and then piled in to kill the Bloodstoker hiding behind them. Archaon took a bunch of damage from Daemonettes before he was able to kill them. At every turn, the Slaaneshi army is doing amazingly well.

You can see both lists on twitter @BenJohnson0013

 

But yeah I was quite surprised how the KoS put Skarbrand in the grave just like that. Skarbrand had suffered some wounds prior to the engagement though.

[CB42]

8 minutes ago, exliontamer said:

It's almost as if they want the army with the shiny new battletome and models to do well in the stream all their customers are watching...

(I am being a bit snarky, but when you used the words Skarbrand and Archaon in the same sentence as "Khorne army" I know you're not talking about a serious/well-composed list.)

It's not like the Slaanesh list is particularly well composed - it's got 3 x 10 Daemonettes, a Hellflayer, and 6 Fiends of Slaanesh as its non-hero section. Both armies are not tournament level. Ben Johnson is literally just playing all the things that are available for pre-order plus MSU battleline and a Hellflayer.

But whether or not you think either list is tournament level, the Keeper of Secrets wrecked Skarbrand before Skarbrand could fight. And Syll'Esske looks better than I was expecting them to be. I think the Locus of Diversion makes it easy for Slaanesh armies to wreck enemy melee lists regardless of whether the Slaanesh list is that good of a list or not.

Edited May 1, 2019 by CB42

[exliontamer]

28 minutes ago, CB42 said:

I think the Locus of Diversion makes it easy for Slaanesh armies to wreck enemy melee lists regardless of whether the Slaanesh list is that good of a list or not.

Oh no doubt. I mean those D5 claw hits are absolutely nothing to shake a stick at. The KoS, when it gets even mildly average rolls, is going to ruin an enemy's day.

[CB42]

Update: In the Warhammer TV game, one keeper of secrets killed: Skarbrand (who'd taken a few wounds before, but was still ready to rumble), a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage (who'd been summoned to the field after Skarbrand died) and Archaon (who'd been chipped down by magic and daemonettes). A good example of what will happen if one sends their monsters in to fight a Keeper one at a time with no way to deal with Locus of Diversion. If the Keeper has a little bit of support nearby to keep someone from piling in multiple units into the Keeper, it's going to be real hard to get that Keeper off the board with melee.

[Enoby]

That KoS was brutal; it wasn't even as if it was getting lucky or using its command ability - it just charged and destroyed. With Sliverslash, it seems much less swingy and very capable of annihilating big models with little effort.  

[Unit1126PLL]

I tried Sliverslash last night. Much less impressive when the enemy screens it away and spells/shoots the keeper down to like 2 wounds lol

[Hebroseph]

1 hour ago, Unit1126PLL said:

I tried Sliverslash last night. Much less impressive when the enemy screens it away and spells/shoots the keeper down to like 2 wounds lol

I think you have to pick and choose your "variation". Pretenders with Silversash will hit harder and more consistent, but get stuck out of place or in bad combats. 

Godseeker KOS with Thermal rider cloak and their Warlord trait to run and charge will get wherever it wants every turn and ignore screens, but be more swingy on the offense. 

I don't know how I would build an Invaders KOS, Maybe Skin with hand for 2d3 heals per turn? 

[Enoby]

27 minutes ago, Hebroseph said:

I don't know how I would build an Invaders KOS, Maybe Skin with hand for 2d3 heals per turn? 

With the healing spell, you could comfortably heal 3d3 in your turns and 2d3 in your opponent's (5d3 a round) so long as you killed something, which is pretty nice healing. Not sure if it'd work well, but it'd certainly be tanky.  

[Poryague]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

With the healing spell, you could comfortably heal 3d3 in your turns and 2d3 in your opponent's (5d3 a round) so long as you killed something, which is pretty nice healing. Not sure if it'd work well, but it'd certainly be tanky.  

Maybe gryph feather and epitome near by with a another small unit. Little group of invaders. You need to make it to combat and live till the end. The -1 to hit does that and invaders has good cp generation to multiple units with keeper command. More synergy betwwen units rather then going alone.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Poryague

[Rentar]

2 hours ago, Hebroseph said:

I think you have to pick and choose your "variation". Pretenders with Silversash will hit harder and more consistent, but get stuck out of place or in bad combats. 

Godseeker KOS with Thermal rider cloak and their Warlord trait to run and charge will get wherever it wants every turn and ignore screens, but be more swingy on the offense. 

I don't know how I would build an Invaders KOS, Maybe Skin with hand for 2d3 heals per turn? 

I think in Invaders, the KoS is best as a distraction Carnifex. Skin + Hand+ Gryph-Feather means it's pretty damn hard to kill unless the opponents have some sort of sniper lineup, which is one of the things I think Slaanesh will struggle with anyway, what with poor ranged and poor access to units with Fly. Stick it on 1-3 wound models with a poor saves or send it chasing enemy support heroes and it'll stay up, wasting enemy focus for a while.

 

On a separate note, how do you guys think a Slaaneshi army should be build in order to take on all comers? Slaanesh is an army that's naturally excellent against elite and character-focused armies because of how depravity works, but how do you cover your other bases?

I'm seeing problems dealing with:

1) Horde armies
2) Armies with a lot of damage nullification, i.e. FNP
3) Heroes with bubble wrap, especially in horde armies
4) Sniper armies (i.e. Stormcast, Seraphon, possible KO if they get an update, Asgorh, Skyre)

The armies that I suspect Slaanesh will struggle against most are: GHoN, DoK, and Nurgle (ones with a Daemon focus), and possibly Skyre. Any opinions on if this'll be an issue, and if so, how do you build a list around it that can still take advantage of Slaanesh's strengths?

[Poryague]

5 minutes ago, Rentar said:

I think in Invaders, the KoS is best as a distraction Carnifex. Skin + Hand+ Gryph-Feather means it's pretty damn hard to kill unless the opponents have some sort of sniper lineup, which is one of the things I think Slaanesh will struggle with anyway, what with poor ranged and poor access to units with Fly. Stick it on 1-3 wound models with a poor saves or send it chasing enemy support heroes and it'll stay up, wasting enemy focus for a while.

 

On a separate note, how do you guys think a Slaaneshi army should be build in order to take on all comers? Slaanesh is an army that's naturally excellent against elite and character-focused armies because of how depravity works, but how do you cover your other bases?

I'm seeing problems dealing with:

1) Horde armies
2) Armies with a lot of damage nullification, i.e. FNP
3) Heroes with bubble wrap, especially in horde armies
4) Sniper armies (i.e. Stormcast, Seraphon, possible KO if they get an update, Asgorh, Skyre)

The armies that I suspect Slaanesh will struggle against most are: GHoN, DoK, and Nurgle (ones with a Daemon focus), and possibly Skyre. Any opinions on if this'll be an issue, and if so, how do you build a list around it that can still take advantage of Slaanesh's strengths?

Hordes Will be an issue if you send your hero's at them. You will want a unit of daemonettes with them to blow those hordes up. FNP the most annoying is nurgle and fyslayers. Fyreslayers you need to kill the hero by hearthgard a 4+ fnp that hero needs to be sniped by enrapturess or a spell so they droped back to a 6fnp. Thats not to say they wont be annoying but we need to make sure we send the right units for the job.

[Carnith]

Combos like Phantasmagoria/Soul Slice Shard/Choir will help deal out much needed mw to units, along with hysterical frenzy to help cut down hordes. These spells are going to be key for us to help snipe characters we normally can't do because we didn't bring an enrapturess or have summoned one yet. 

The idea of reducing bravery of a unit by a few points and then hitting them with shard for a few mw's will be nice, with other ways to reduce bravery. Twins can help ensure those casts go off. U

Make sure to use all of your movement and know that your range with claws is 3" so you can reach out and touch them in combat and remove buffs. 

 

[Unit1126PLL]

Don't forget, guys, if you're having trouble with support heroes, Shalaxi Helbane as one of a Keeper three-girl hit-squad can pull support heroes out from behind their screens, especially if she is positioned correctly.

[Rentar]

24 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

Don't forget, guys, if you're having trouble with support heroes, Shalaxi Helbane as one of a Keeper three-girl hit-squad can pull support heroes out from behind their screens, especially if she is positioned correctly.

According to the designers, Shalaxi Helbane is addressed with gender neutral pronouns. 

From: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/26/slaanesh-designer-insightsgw-homepage-post-3/ (emphasis mine)

Quote

Ben: We wanted the models to have the feel of a festival. Some models – like the attendants of the Contorted Epitome – are dressed like revellers at a party. Shalaxi Helbane’s headdress, meanwhile, makes them look like they’re at a carnival.

Back to the game discussion, how do we find the points to fit Shalaxi, 2 KoS, and enough Daemonettes to fight off hordes?

KoS - 360
KoS - 360
Helbane - 340

is already 1060

30 Daemonettes - 300
5 Hellstriders - 100

pushes it to 1460, and you still need a third battleline. 10 daemonettes is of limited use, but if you take the 30 it's 1760 and you've only got 3 heroes and no battalions for CPs to maximise the CA of the KoS, nor any support heroes of your own. If you pick Invaders, you could grab the Rod of Misrule I suppose, but then it's difficult to put your KoS together to maximise their effectiveness.

The best I could come up with on short notice is

KoS (General), Gryph-feather charm (or another artefact maybe)
KoS 
Helbane 
Viceleader/Masque (General)
Contorted Epitome (General), Rod of Misrule

In a Supreme Sybarites battalion

1500 points so far, which lets you grab 30 Daemonettes and 2 units of 5 Hellstriders. You get CPs from the Rod and CPs from Sybarites, and a rod-holder who's very resistant to spell sniping (though not very resistant to artillery fire).

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Rentar
Typos

[Unit1126PLL]

2 minutes ago, Rentar said:

According to the designers, Shalaxi Helbane is addressed with gender neutral pronouns. 

From: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/26/slaanesh-designer-insightsgw-homepage-post-3/ (emphasis mine)

Back to the game discussion, how do we find the points to fit Shalaxi, 2 KoS, and enough Daemonettes to fight off hordes?

KoS - 360
KoS - 360
Helbane - 340

is already 1060

30 Daemonettes - 300
5 Hellstriders - 100

pushes it to 1460, and you still need a third battleline. 10 daemonettes is of limited use, but if you take the 30 it's 1760 and you've only got 3 heroes and no battalions for CPs to maximise the CA of the KoS, nor any support heroes of your own. If you pick Invaders, you could grab the Rod of Misrule I suppose, but then it's difficult to put your KoS together to maximise their effectiveness.

The best I could come up with on short notice is

KoS (General), Gryph-feather charm (or another artefact maybe)
KoS 
Helbane 
Viceleader/Masque (General)
Contorted Epitome (General), Rod of Misrule

In a Supreme Sybarites battalion

1500 points so far, which lets you grab 30 Daemonettes and 2 units of 5 Hellstriders. You get CPs from the Rod and CPs from Sybarites, and a rod-holder who's very resistant to spell sniping (though not very resistant to artillery fire).

 

Fair enough on the Helbane pronouns.

As for the Tri-Keepers you just make them Supreme Sybarites and run them together, and pick only 1 general. Invaders says you can have up to 3 generals not you must have 3 generals . So take invaders for the great artefacts, but just take one general and run a 3 keeper (or 2 keeper and Helbane) posse.